Tight and revealing

[Guest]

So, there was a thread somewhere (I can't seem to find it) that evolved into an armpit stained yellow wrinkled white shirt and so last Sunday I couldn't help but observe what people were wearing.

 

Here's my observation -

Everybody seated on the stand and all the people passing sacrament were all wearing crisp white shirts.  Only one of them did not have a suit jacket on - he's one of the deacons.  Only one of them - my son, ugh - was wearing a suit that was shorter than it should be.  He has another suit that fit him but I haven't had a chance to get it from the cleaners.

 

From the congregation, all the men 8 years old and above were wearing crisp white shirts except for 3 men, all adults.  The 3 men were wearing light non-white colors, one was pale blue, the other pale yellow, the other gray.  One was wearing short sleeve white shirt - he's 11 years old.  Most of the adult men were wearing suit jackets (this is Florida, by the way - it was 90 degrees last weekend and raining).  One man in his late 60's was wearing a pale yellow shirt with plaid-patterned cargo shorts in stripes of red, yellow, white, and blue and light brown hiking boots.  His tie matched his shorts exactly.  He's an investigator who has been coming to Church for about 3 months now.  He usually wears jeans and t-shirt.  He upped his game last Sunday and lots of people complimented him on it.

 

Everybody was modest - even the young women.  Now, after we leave for Sunday School, the YSA take over the chapel.  Now, that ward have women go to Church in their short black dress and 4-inch stilettos like they're going to a cocktail party.

Edited September 1, 2015 by anatess

[David13]

Anatess

Plaid cargo shorts?  He sounds like some type of 'Hippie'.

Thank the lord we don't have any hippies in our ward. 

I think we do have a few 'hipsters', you know, young guys with a beard.

However, both of them spend most of their time walking around trying to keep a baby in their arms quiet. 

So I guess without regard to the 'hipsterism' they at least are parents.

dc

[Guest]

Anatess

Plaid cargo shorts?  He sounds like some type of 'Hippie'.

Thank the lord we don't have any hippies in our ward. 

I think we do have a few 'hipsters', you know, young guys with a beard.

However, both of them spend most of their time walking around trying to keep a baby in their arms quiet. 

So I guess without regard to the 'hipsterism' they at least are parents.

dc

 

Oh I forgot about the beards.  We had 3 last Sunday - a 17-year old, a guy in his late 50's, and the plaid cargo-shorts guy.

[Guest]

My husband has a beautiful full beard. The bishop he serves as clerk for doesn't give a fig. 

[priesthoodpower]

My husband has a beautiful full beard. The bishop he serves as clerk for doesn't give a fig. 

I bet back in the 80's 90's they would have asked him to shave but since a few years ago (2005 ish??) the popular culture (athletes, actors etc...) are styling the full beards and because of that our church leaders are more accepting of it, IMHO.

 

Its funny how that works.

 

I know for sure growing up back in the 90's anything other then a mustache you were asked to shave and this was not just for leadership callings it was any priesthood holder.

Edited September 1, 2015 by priesthoodpower

[Backroads]

There's an old hippy in my parent's ward. You can see him wandering about during the week looking very much the old hippy. On Sundays he puts on a nice suit and puts his beard in a ponytail.

On the focus of the thread... I think the maxi dress is dependent on the figure of the wearer. Yet I've never seen one I'd call immodest clinging, more like "that ain't for your shape, dear". Or perhaps I see things differently, being female. Many maxi dresses wear quite modestly.

I think it best to try things on oneself when looking for modesty.

[JojoBag]

I just moved back to the U.S. from Australia and it is a rampant problem there.  The ward I'm in here isn't too bad, but one person dressing immodestly is bad enough.  What is just as bad and not talked about much are the men and boys who condone it by not saying something to their wives, daughters, sisters, girlfriends, etc. 

 

This past week, I was reading Isaiah 3 and started doing some cross referencing.  What I read made me realize that verses 16 through 24 are being fulfilled today.

 

 

Moreover the Lord saith, Because the ^adaughters of Zion are ^bhaughty, and ^cwalk with stretched forth necks and ^dwanton eyes, walking and ^emincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

(Isaiah 3:16)

 

The first cross reference (a) refers to modesty or in this case, a lack of modesty.  Reference (b) is self-explanatory, but includes vanity, deceit, foolishness, vain, hypocrisy and pride.  © refers to "walking in darkness," meaning they ignore the commandments of god.  They walk after the ways of the world and have other gods before them.  (d) refers to lust, sensuality and worldliness.  (e) refers to "walking with short, rapid steps in an affected manner."  In other words, swinging their hips and strutting their stuff.

 

The last verses do not bode well for the daughters of Zion.

 

 

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

(Isaiah 3:17–24)

 

The cross references for these verses are interesting.  I won't go into all of them, but there are a couple things to point out.  In verse 23, "the glasses" refer to clothing that is revealing, transparent or see-through.  In verse 24, "burning instead of beauty" is a very serious consequence for ignoring God.  "Burning" refers to a mark of slavery.  Coupled with "baldness," this can be referenced to what happened in places like Nazi Germany and the concentration camps.  The prisoners' heads were shaved and a mark of their slavery was given them.

 

Make of it what you will, but the daughters of Zion are playing with fire.

[Bini]

I'm not sure if some of you are referring to the popular maxi dresses and or skirts. Indeed, they are flow-y and can become static-y, causing material to cling to the body. But personally, I don't find them to be immodest or inappropriate for Sunday church attire, I think they're a good choice for women who are pregnant and women that might be curvier - it's definitely a comfy choice for mums, period! I would bet that the majority of women choose maxi dresses and skirts for comfort, as well. But yeh, sometimes as a woman you just can't win! An outfit is either too tight, or too loose. Aiya.

[rayhale]

I wonder how much a problem it is the fact that women wear dresses, and skirts, less often today, than in the past, and simply don't know how to wear a dress? 

I can't put all the blame on women, since fashion designers think that modesty and fashion are incompatible.

[Traveler]

As a side note – sometimes as a guy, I wear very tight and revealing stuff. In my early cycling years I use to wear long bulky pants (levies) and a t-shirt while cycling. But I could not keep up with others. Finely a fellow cyclist suggested I get more wind resistant clothing for ridding and stuff that would allow my skin to breath. Before doing so I sought the advice of my bishop and stake president – and even wrote a letter to the first presidency. Without going into all the details – I was advised to wear proper clothing for the activities I was involved in doing – even if my covenant garments could not be worn ”properly”. That was many years ago. I will say that dressing properly for cycling made a big difference – I was never great but I do have a bronze medal for 3rd place in a pro – armature race (1st and 2nd place went to pros.)

I currently have a very tight outfit that is the uniform of a cycle team I support – not my standard colors but I often wear in support of my team. For information – my team’s next event is the lotoja (Logan Utah to Jackson Wyoming – 220 mile race) this coming Saturday. I will be driving the team support vehicle – if anybody else will be there – let me know and we will hook up.

[JojoBag]

I wonder how much a problem it is the fact that women wear dresses, and skirts, less often today, than in the past, and simply don't know how to wear a dress? 

I can't put all the blame on women, since fashion designers think that modesty and fashion are incompatible.

 

Women don't have to buy immodest fashions.  I think that in anticipation to this problem, the Lord gave us a commandment regarding our clothing.

 

40 And again, thou shalt not be proud in thy heart; let all thy garments be plain, and their beauty the beauty of the work of thine own hands;

(Doctrine and Covenants 42:40)

[RMGuy]

I figure that at the judgement bar I will be responsible for my own thoughts, actions, and deeds.  If I have impure thoughts after looking at the laurel class president because she is young, cute, and nubile then that is my issue...not hers.  Likewise, if I start lusting after the EQ president's wife then that is a problem I need to address.  It shouldn't matter if she attends her meetings in a bikini or in a burqa it doesn't make my thought process any more right or wrong, nor does it offer me any kind of an excuse.  

 

My thoughts and actions are my responsibility alone.  Hence, I tend to think that learning respect and to control ones thoughts is considerably more important than what one wears.  Since after all the Lord looks on the heart (and mind) and not the outward appearance.  But then a lot of people in our ward and stake seem to really like creating all kinds of rules, laws, and policies...you know kinda like a lot of people in the early church, so I am definitely in the minority :)

[Traveler]

I figure that at the judgement bar I will be responsible for my own thoughts, actions, and deeds.  If I have impure thoughts after looking at the laurel class president because she is young, cute, and nubile then that is my issue...not hers.  Likewise, if I start lusting after the EQ president's wife then that is a problem I need to address.  It shouldn't matter if she attends her meetings in a bikini or in a burqa it doesn't make my thought process any more right or wrong, nor does it offer me any kind of an excuse.  

 

My thoughts and actions are my responsibility alone.  Hence, I tend to think that learning respect and to control ones thoughts is considerably more important than what one wears.  Since after all the Lord looks on the heart (and mind) and not the outward appearance.  But then a lot of people in our ward and stake seem to really like creating all kinds of rules, laws, and policies...you know kinda like a lot of people in the early church, so I am definitely in the minority :)

 

I am of the mind that it is not near as important what rules are thought up in wards and stakes as it is the advice and councle you give your daughters in your home.

[thoughts]

JS and Sister Bednar may have stewardship over young women.   The OP does not and it is NEVER up to somone else to avoid doing things that you find problematic.  It is soooo very easy for people to make everything someone else's problem when we have to accept that God didn't put us here to fail.  He expects us to be in charge of ourselves even if every beach in our country is a nude beach, and even if people wear clothes that make it harder for us to look into their eyes.   It is up to all of us to control ourselves.  Any conversation or discussion about others clothing or actions being responsible for our challenges is just plain wrong.

 

I hate what we do in the church when we speak to and about how young women and women dress.   It is so sexist and so uncalled for.  And, frankly, so none of anyone's business but them, their parents, and the Lord.

[Rhoades]

Women don't have to buy immodest fashions.  I think that in anticipation to this problem, the Lord gave us a commandment regarding our clothing.

 

40 And again, thou shalt not be proud in thy heart; let all thy garments be plain, and their beauty the beauty of the work of thine own hands;

(Doctrine and Covenants 42:40)

 

And then there's verse 54, "Thou shalt not take thy brother’s garment; thou shalt pay for that which thou shalt receive of thy brother."

So, if you get your clothing from others, don't steal.  Be sure you pay for it.

 

I'm well aware of the 1970s talks about making clothing and food in order to promote thrift, developing skills, and learning to be self-sufficient.  But, in this era I don't think the Lord cares whether we make our own clothing.  It doesn't even make economic sense.  I'm curious whether JojoBag actually thinks we should make "all" of our garments.

 

I do think our clothing should not be a statement of vanity or pride.  And, another principle still applicable from verse 40 is that we should see beauty in the industry and work needed to acquire clothing.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Rhoades

[Jenny]

I completely agree, dressing tight and revealing are one of those things women should just not do. Especially when there are so many modest fashion options out there that are fashionable and comfortable. I found this great place called ModLI.  I'm sure alot of you heard of it it seems like they are super popular!

[JojoBag]

And then there's verse 54, "Thou shalt not take thy brother’s garment; thou shalt pay for that which thou shalt receive of thy brother."

So, if you get your clothing from others, don't steal.  Be sure you pay for it.

 

I'm well aware of the 1970s talks about making clothing and food in order to promote thrift, developing skills, and learning to be self-sufficient.  But, in this era I don't think the Lord cares whether we make our own clothing.  It doesn't even make economic sense.  I'm curious whether JojoBag actually thinks we should make "all" of our garments.

 

I do think our clothing should not be a statement of vanity or pride.  And, another principle still applicable from verse 40 is that we should see beauty in the industry and work needed to acquire clothing.

 

Yes, I do think we should be making our clothes if we cannot find modest clothing.  The problem is that way too many LDS are deceived as to what constitutes "modest."  It seems that the concept of modesty is not much more than the teachings of men mingled with scripture. For all too many, modest means that you don't show too much cleavage or the skirt or isn't too far above the knee.  The problem with a large majority of fashions is that the cloth used is designed to cling to and show off the figure. 

 

Last Sunday, there was a regional conference for southern Utah.  If anyone watched it, do you remember the General Relief Society President's outfit?  Simply look at how she and her counselors dress.  They are the example we should be following. 

[char713]

Women would have an easier time of dressing modestly if modest clothing cost the same as immodest clothing. Much of the time it is more expensive, because in order for it to not be clingy, or for blouses to not be sheer or to gape open, it requires more structuring in the fabric and more stitching. Clingy poly-knit skirts and dresses are inexpensive and immodest because of how simply (and often sloppily) they are constructed.

 

Of course the obvious answer would be that we should just make our own clothing. Too bad that fabric and sewing materials (not to mention sewing machines!) make it completely cost-prohibitive. That may work for those who just can't find what they like in stores and so make their own.. it doesn't work for those who can't find anything truly modest in their low price point.

[Traveler]

Women would have an easier time of dressing modestly if modest clothing cost the same as immodest clothing. Much of the time it is more expensive, because in order for it to not be clingy, or for blouses to not be sheer or to gape open, it requires more structuring in the fabric and more stitching. Clingy poly-knit skirts and dresses are inexpensive and immodest because of how simply (and often sloppily) they are constructed.

 

Of course the obvious answer would be that we should just make our own clothing. Too bad that fabric and sewing materials (not to mention sewing machines!) make it completely cost-prohibitive. That may work for those who just can't find what they like in stores and so make their own.. it doesn't work for those who can't find anything truly modest in their low price point.

 

I am inclined to think that modesty has as much or more to do with how and why something is worn than it is what is worn.   I have a wife and daughter that have an knack of taking whatever they put on and making it modest and beautiful.  My wife prefers more lose fitting clothing and my daughter (since infancy) prefers tight fitting clothing.   Both are good looking without makeup but both very much enjoy dressing up and a little makeup.  But I am sure that in some cultures, places and times that there would be someone that would think both to be immodest because they only see surface things and judge a shallow judgment.

[askandanswer]

 

This past week, I was reading Isaiah 3 and started doing some cross referencing.  What I read made me realize that verses 16 through 24 are being fulfilled today.

 

 

The first cross reference (a) refers to modesty or in this case, a lack of modesty.  Reference (b) is self-explanatory, but includes vanity, deceit, foolishness, vain, hypocrisy and pride.  © refers to "walking in darkness," meaning they ignore the commandments of god.  They walk after the ways of the world and have other gods before them.  (d) refers to lust, sensuality and worldliness.  (e) refers to "walking with short, rapid steps in an affected manner."  In other words, swinging their hips and strutting their stuff.

 

The last verses do not bode well for the daughters of Zion.

 

 

The cross references for these verses are interesting.  I won't go into all of them, but there are a couple things to point out.  In verse 23, "the glasses" refer to clothing that is revealing, transparent or see-through.  In verse 24, "burning instead of beauty" is a very serious consequence for ignoring God.  "Burning" refers to a mark of slavery.  Coupled with "baldness," this can be referenced to what happened in places like Nazi Germany and the concentration camps.  The prisoners' heads were shaved and a mark of their slavery was given them.

 

 

Or perhaps modern dress standards are actually a fulfilment of the prophecy that in the latter days "all things shall be revealed." :)