Pride or Self Esteem Promotion

[David13]

Satan wants you to have self esteem.

It's a feature on this website, and well states what I have been saying for many years. 

That this idea that the schools have to promote a false self esteem in their students is wrong and very disfunctional.

I cannot say any more about it better than said there.

dc

[Guest]

He also wants us to forget our worth. So how do you differentiate the two?

[hagoth]

As President Hinckley's father counseled his young missionary: "Dear Gordon, I have your recent letter. I have only one suggestion: Forget yourself and go to work."

 

From a recent education week session:

"Don't focus on whether you're being humble...instead focus on serving others and serving God."

 

Also, I can't recommend this speech enough...especially the repetitive question of "What would you have me do next?" that has resonated for years: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/henry-b-eyring_go-forth-serve-4/

 

Thoughts?

 

[pam]

Here is the link to the article that David is talking about in case you are wondering.

 

http://lds.net/blog/life/satan-wants-you-to-have-self-esteem/

[Palerider]

Here is the link to the article that David is talking about in case you are wondering.

 

http://lds.net/blog/life/satan-wants-you-to-have-self-esteem/

This is a great article ....hope everyone gets to read it. As I have stated in another thread when my son comes to our home lots of times the topic we talk about is mental health. He works in mental health and it's very interesting the things he shares.

[Guest MormonGator]

There is a huge difference between "self esteem" and "I think I'm a better person than you because of my skills and abilities"

IE-I'm very good at chess. I've been playing for years and have worked very hard developing that ability. I could probably beat you at a match. Am I proud of that? You bet. Does it make me a better man than you? Of course not.  

[estradling75]

Self Esteem is very important.... when it is earned by doing hard things.  Why?  Because when it is earned by doing hard things a person learns how to handle failure and setbacks, and they learn that can over come such and the life isn't going to just hand them things.

 

Self Esteem that is "earned" because you were there. You participated.  Teaches the exact opposite.  This kind of self esteem will cause the person to become dependent on others the moment things get hard and require work

[David13]

He also wants us to forget our worth. So how do you differentiate the two?

 

Quite easily Eowyn, quite easily.

Self esteem must be earned. 

If little Johnny shows up in school and earns an award and accomplishes something, then the award is valid.

If little Johnny shows up in school with his usual bad attitude and the teacher wants to give him an award for this false pride, it's wrong and harmful.

So it's blatantly obvious between the two.

 

As to Mormon Gator, no, no I'm better than you attitude.  That would be wrong. 

But there is a qualitative difference, which must not be ignored, and if you are side tracked by the I'm better than you issue, you miss the recognition, the important recognition of the qualitative difference.  Students go to school to advance and learn and better themselves, not to just remain the same.  And that is what must not be lost, tho' has been with this false pride promotion.

dc

[f1lbr]

Self Esteem is very important.... when it is earned by doing hard things.  Why?  Because when it is earned by doing hard things a person learns how to handle failure and setbacks, and they learn that can over come such and the life isn't going to just hand them things.

 

Self Esteem that is "earned" because you were there. You participated.  Teaches the exact opposite.  This kind of self esteem will cause the person to become dependent on others the moment things get hard and require work

 

Let me give you a different definition of self esteem.  True and lasting self esteem comes from knowing that the life one is pursuing is pleasing to God.  One can and should seek revelation and receive confirmation that their life is one that pleases God.  When they receive that revelation, they understand their worth to God and experience true self esteem.

 

The article in the OP is discussing different types of worldly self esteem.  Worldly self esteem is always transient and is never permanent.

[David13]

Let me give you a different definition of self esteem.  True and lasting self esteem comes from knowing that the life one is pursuing is pleasing to God.  One can and should seek revelation and receive confirmation that their life is one that pleases God.  When they receive that revelation, they understand their worth to God and experience true self esteem.

 

The article in the OP is discussing different types of worldly self esteem.  Worldly self esteem is always transient and is never permanent.

 

That really isn't a different definition.  It is a description of a different sphere. 

The article refers to a flaw that was consciously put forth in the school system nationwide with a very disfuntional result. 

 

The fact that our mortality is temporary, transient, and not permanent is a different issue.

dc

Edited September 5, 2015 by David13

[Bini]

I haven't read the article, yet, nor have I read every response. Just adding that in.

 

I don't believe self-esteem must be earned. Yes, there might be situations where earning your place holds up, but there are other contexts in which self value shouldn't be questioned. Everyone has worth. The scummiest and laziest of people, and the polar opposite of that. I think suicide is one instance where someone finally gets to the point of believing there is no way out and no way to move forwards, they lack the self-esteem and self-worth to reevaluate their situation, ultimately, making a permanent decision with no bounce back.

 

Anyway, I don't view self-esteem and self-worth as pride. I view arrogance as pride. In terms of prophets, weren't there a handful of them that had strong self-esteem and self-worth, and yet, were not arrogant?

[estradling75]

I haven't read the article, yet, nor have I read every response. Just adding that in.

 

I don't believe self-esteem must be earned. Yes, there might be situations where earning your place holds up, but there are other contexts in which self value shouldn't be questioned. Everyone has worth. The scummiest and laziest of people, and the polar opposite of that. I think suicide is one instance where someone finally gets to the point of believing there is no way out and no way to move forwards, they lack the self-esteem and self-worth to reevaluate their situation, ultimately, making a permanent decision with no bounce back.

 

Anyway, I don't view self-esteem and self-worth as pride. I view arrogance as pride. In terms of prophets, weren't there a handful of them that had strong self-esteem and self-worth, and yet, were not arrogant?

 

 

Depends entirely on what you mean by self-esteem.  We are all children of God. That should be a huge esteem boost. 

 

However the goal is to be a child of God that is living up to their potential in a world that does not care.  And a person can not develop into that if the people responsible for training the child, deceive the child into thinking that simply existing means everything is going to be given to them.

[f1lbr]

That really isn't a different definition.  It is a description of a different sphere. 

The article refers to a flaw that was consciously put forth in the school system nationwide with a very disfuntional result. 

 

The fact that our mortality is temporary, transient, and not permanent is a different issue.

dc

 

Well whether you consider it a different definition or a different sphere or a different perspective isn't really relevant.  The point is that if you rely on external things, accomplishments, worldly praise or whatever it may be, your self esteem will always eventually fail you.  Those are things you have limited control over.

 

Yes, I did read the article.  Yes, "fake accomplishments" don't instill lasting self worth.  But then again, the difference between "fake accomplishments" and "real accomplishments" is only a difference of degree.  Look at the people who have worldly "real accomplishments".  Does it gain them lasting happiness?  If not, then they don't really have real self esteem.

 

From another perspective, the article comparing something that is a 1 against something that is a 10 on a scale of 10,000.  From the perspective of the 1, the 10 looks nice.  From the 10, the 1 looks terrible.  Especially if you don't realize the scale goes up to 10,000.  But from the perspective of 10,000 both look rather meaningless.

 

And that's why I say it.  Real, lasting self esteem comes from knowing that the life one is pursuing is pleasing to the Lord.  That kind of self esteem anchors one against the constantly shifting winds of the world's metrics for self esteem.

[Bini]

Depends entirely on what you mean by self-esteem.  We are all children of God. That should be a huge esteem boost. 

 

However the goal is to be a child of God that is living up to their potential in a world that does not care.  And a person can not develop into that if the people responsible for training the child, deceive the child into thinking that simply existing means everything is going to be given to them.

Yeh, that's not what I was talking about.

 

Every human being has worth, earned, or not.

[Guest]

I haven't read the article, yet, nor have I read every response. Just adding that in.

 

I don't believe self-esteem must be earned. Yes, there might be situations where earning your place holds up, but there are other contexts in which self value shouldn't be questioned. Everyone has worth. The scummiest and laziest of people, and the polar opposite of that. I think suicide is one instance where someone finally gets to the point of believing there is no way out and no way to move forwards, they lack the self-esteem and self-worth to reevaluate their situation, ultimately, making a permanent decision with no bounce back.

 

Anyway, I don't view self-esteem and self-worth as pride. I view arrogance as pride. In terms of prophets, weren't there a handful of them that had strong self-esteem and self-worth, and yet, were not arrogant?

 

I think I agree with you.  (Personally, I think the author goes a little too far and mixes some good ideas with a pre-set political viewpoint and with some bad ideas that unfairly lump a lot of people together.) 

[Guest]

...Yes, "fake accomplishments" don't instill lasting self worth.  But then again, the difference between "fake accomplishments" and "real accomplishments" is only a difference of degree.  Look at the people who have worldly "real accomplishments".  Does it gain them lasting happiness?  If not, then they don't really have real self esteem....

 

This is a very salient point.

[estradling75]

Yeh, that's not what I was talking about.

 

Every human being has worth, earned, or not.

 

 

Indeed...  But what you are talking about is not what the article is addressing

[Bini]

Indeed...  But what you are talking about is not what the article is addressing

 

I did specify that I hadn't read the article, nor that I read every response, upon making my comment.

 

I did, however, read some of the responses and was adding onto those...

[David13]

Bini

It might help you if you read the article.

 

f1lbr

What you post is not inconsistent with my posts.

The article is directed toward the school programs.  

dc

Edited September 5, 2015 by David13

[yjacket]

That was an awesome article.  Thank you David.

 

I believe what is said in there pretty much wholehearted.  Much of what we see in modern day mental illness issues can be directly attributed to this new-age philosophical bunk of "self-esteem".  

 

I don't want my kids to have high self-esteem-if they do I'll take them down a few notches. I want them to be productive, hard-working, self-reliant, humble, contributing members of society. 

[Guest]

...what I have been saying for many years. 

That this idea that the schools have to promote a false self esteem in their students is wrong and very disfunctional. ...

 

What specific example in schools have you observed that causes you to say that they promote a false self esteem in their students?

[Guest]

Self Esteem is very important.... Because when it is earned by doing hard things a person learns how to handle failure and setbacks, and they learn that can over come such and the life isn't going to just hand them things. Self Esteem that is "earned" because you were there. ...Teaches the exact opposite. ...will cause the person to become dependent on others the moment things get hard and require work

Some say nothing succeeds like success which I think means when one makes a first attempt and succeeds, one is more likely to keep working at it and more likely to continue succeeding. When you say, "...doing hard things a person learns how to handle failure...", are you thinking specifically about succeeding at the hard things? Does failing at the hard things teaches a person to handle failure? Do you consider the distinction important? Are you opposed to giving five-year olds award when they start playing soccer as an example?

Edited September 8, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[estradling75]

Some people say that nothing succeeds like success which I think means when a person makes a first attempt and succeeds, then the person is more likely to keep working at it and more likely to continue succeeding. When you say, "...doing hard things a person learns how to handle failure...", are you thinking specifically about succeeding at the hard things?  Do you think trying and failing at the hard things teaches a person to handle failure? Do you consider the distinction to be important or unimportant?

 

I would also like to ask about what you say in the second paragraph. Are you referring to giving five-year old children a participation award when they start playing soccer as an example? Or are you referring to some other kind of example?

 

Given that we are talking about 'building and training' yes I'd say we are talking about younger kids... because that is when it should happen.

 

They should be given age relevant challenges.  Challenges should very between ones that reward you for what every point you reach (like say test do), and challenges that reward group efforts and challenges that only take the top (like top three) (again all age relevant).

 

Then you give the children the tools they need to meet the challenge.  Then you let them try.  Some will have natural gifts, some will not, some will follow the instructions to prepare some will not.  Then you let them respond to the challenge.

 

This will produce a range of results.  We don't need to change much how we handle the 'winners', but we do need to remove the idea that 'loser' is a bad word when it comes to challenges.  Let them lose, but then be there and talk to them.  Talk to them about what they did well.  (for example.. If they worked really hard then that should be acknowledged) But more importantly talk to them about what they might do differently next time to change the results.  I think that discussion is the critical part, because that is how you learn to over come set back and challenges.

 

This doesn't happen if you stick a participation trophy in their hands a throw a party for them.  They do not learn how to recover from failure, instead they learn that they should handed everything they try for.

[clwnuke]

If you haven't seen the movie Stand and Deliver, watch it. It's all about how you earn respect and working on the things that can make your mortal experience better and ignoring the things that do not. It's based on a true story.

 

I would also recommend reading Dumbing Us Down or The Seven-Lesson Schoolteacher by John Taylor Gatto if you want to know how kids are affected by much of this world's lessons on self-esteem and worth. I quote a little of his writing below:

 

"The sixth lesson I teach is provisional self-esteem. If you've ever tried to wrestle a kid into line whose parents have convinced him to believe they'll love him in spite of anything, you know how impossible it is to make self-confident spirits conform. Our world wouldn't survive a flood of confident people very long, so I teach that your self-respect should depend on expert opinion. My kids are constantly evaluated and judged.

 

A monthly report, impressive in its provision, is sent into students' homes to signal approval or to mark exactly, down to a single percentage point, how dissatisfied with their children parents should be. The ecology of "good" schooling depends upon perpetuating dissatisfaction just as much as the commercial economy depends on the same fertilizer. Although some people might be surprised how little time or reflection goes into making up these mathematical records, the cumulative weight of the objective-seeming documents establishes a profile that compels children to arrive at certain decisions about themselves and their futures based on the casual judgment of strangers. Self-evaluation, the staple of every major philosophical system that ever appeared on the planet, is never considered a factor. The lesson of report cards, grades, and tests is that children should not trust themselves or their parents but should instead rely on the evaluation of certified officials. People need to be told what they are worth."

 

I've met both men, and they are spot on in their teachings.

Edited September 6, 2015 by clwnuke

[David13]

What specific example in schools have you observed that causes you to say that they promote a false self esteem in their students?

 

They give awards to any kid that shows up.  They don't fail any students.  They give good grades to all the students.  Etc.

 

Respect and self esteem has to be earned.  Otherwise it's false.

dc

Edited September 6, 2015 by David13