Book of Mormon Prophecy in Fulfillment?

[cdowis]

3 Nephi 20 [15] And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people --

[16] Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

I remember when I read this, I could see the Navahoes (Lamanites) driving tanks in armed conflict with the Gentiles (ourselves)

 

Of course this was rather silly.  I now realize that the Lamanites include those who are from Mexico, Central and South America.  Over the past few years I have seen how this prophecy has gradually begun to come to pass.  Specifically it is our unrighteousness that has been the direct cause -- the drug trade is funded by ourselves.

 

But it is not yet yet fulfilled.

[cdowis]

"Findings from the 2014 National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), released today, reveal the percentage of Americans aged 12 or older who used an illicit drug in 2014 was higher than in every year between 2002 and 2013, driven primarily by increases in marijuana use, sustained rates of nonmedical pain reliever use, and increases in heroin use.

“With now one in ten Americans reporting illicit drug use, it’s clear that we have much more to do to prevent drug use and treat the disease of addiction,” said Jeffrey Goldsmith, MD, President of the American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM)."

http://www.asam.org/magazine/read/article/2015/09/10/increased-marijuana-heroin-use-contribute-to-highest-reported-illicit-drug-use-in-more-than-a-decade

[hagoth]

3 Nephi 20 [15] And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people --

[16] Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

I remember when I read this, I could see the Navahoes (Lamanites) driving tanks in armed conflict with the Gentiles (ourselves)

 

Of course this was rather silly.  I now realize that the Lamanites include those who are from Mexico, Central and South America.  Over the past few years I have seen how this prophecy has gradually begun to come to pass.  Specifically it is our unrighteousness that has been the direct cause -- the drug trade is funded by ourselves.

 

But it is not yet yet fulfilled.

1) First, I'm not convinced you're accurately reflecting who the remnant of Jacob is in that passage.

2) As to the allusion to lions, I'd also suggest considering the following, to explain what their figurative role or behavior may very well be intended mean:

"...They shall roar like young ^alions; yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry away safe..." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/15.26-30?lang=eng#25

Also: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/6.16-17?lang=eng#15

And: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/21.24-25?lang=eng#23

 

To illustrate what I think the above passages are all saying, and to offer a glimpse of what I happen to believe the main thing the figurative lions would actually be doing, if you actually read just a bit further in the chapter you briefly cited, you get the following:

"...And I will ^agather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.

For I will make my ^apeople with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy ^bhorn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt ^cbeat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it...."

(I actually suggest a careful reading of the entire chapter.)

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/20.18-19?lang=eng#17

 

 

Thoughts? Disagreements? Impressions?

[cdowis]

Because the Gentiles do not repent, a lion goes among sheep "treadeth down and teareth in pieces" does not seem to fit "roar and leadeth into safety".  

 

But I agree that both mention lions.

[f1lbr]

 

 

16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadethdown and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

ye = you.  Who is the Lord speaking to in verse 16?  Verse 10 begins the quotation from the Lord:

 

 

9 Now, when the multitude had all eaten and drunk, behold, they were filled with the Spirit; and they did cry out with one voice, and gave glory to Jesus, whom they both saw and heard.

 10 And it came to pass that when they had all given glory unto Jesus, he said unto them: Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.

 

So verse 16 is seems to be talking about the righteous Nephites/Lamanites gathered at Bountiful, or at least their surviving remnant in our day.  It should be noted that "you" can be either a second person or third person address.  Here I'm assuming a second person address and then inferring the descendants to whom the Lord was directly addressing.  It could be that "you" is a third person address in which the Nephites/Lamanites are not being directly addressed and that "you" is just addressing some other remnant of the House of Israel, but I don't put a whole lot on this viewpoint.

 

The problem comes from verse 15:

 

 

 

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—

 

Who are the gentiles?  I believe that this causes confusion because of the liberal way in which the term is seemingly applied.  Some, especially those who use this prophecy as justification that the church has gone astray, apply the term "gentile" to the members of the church.  And this confusion comes from, I believe, a misunderstanding of the term "gentile".

 

The Guide to the Scriptures is pertinent to understanding this:

 

 

 

GENTILES

 

As used in the scriptures, Gentiles has several meanings. Sometimes it designates people of non-Israelite lineage, sometimes people of non-Jewish lineage, and sometimes nations that are without the gospel, even though there may be some Israelite blood among the people. This latter usage is especially characteristic of the word as used in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants.

 

This is especially important to keep in mind in the context in 3 Nephi 21 wherein it talks about the Gospel going forth "from the Gentiles".  The gospel is going forth "from the Gentiles" in the context of the latter-days because Israel is not gathered as a nation.  However it is very important to keep in mind that once converted, we as individuals cease to be gentiles and become part of the House of Israel, pursuant to the covenant thereof.  Whereas many point to 3 Nephi 21 for justification that we are the "Gentiles" (because the Gospel is to go forth "from the Gentiles"), a careful reading indicates that the term "gentile" cannot be so constrained (3 Nephi 21:6):

 

 

 

6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

 

Thus, upon repentance and baptism gentiles become numbered among "[his] people".  His people are the house of Israel.  And they cease being gentiles even though we are still among the Gentile nations.  Now let's go back and apply this the Chapter 20:

 

 

 

12 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that when they shall be fulfilled then is the fulfilling of the covenant which the Father hath made unto his people, O house of Israel.

 

What is the covenant made unto "his people", which are the house of Israel?  It is that although they are scattered, they shall be gathered.

 

 

 

13 And then shall the remnants, which shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth, be gathered in from the east and from the west, and from the south and from the north; and they shall be brought to the knowledge of the Lord their God, who hath redeemed them.

 

This gathering seems to occur before the fulfillment of verses 15 and 16 (inline comments mine):

 

 

 

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles (the Gentile nations) do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive (having the gospel preached unto them), after they have scattered my people—

 16 Then shall ye (descendants of the Lamanites), who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

 

Now following on into verses 18 and 19.  Note that these verses seem to be addressing yet a third group of people than those discussed in verses 15 and 16.  Verses 15 and 16 address two groups of people, "the Gentiles" and "a remnant of the house of Jacob".  Now verses 18 and 19 seem to be addressing a third group.  This third group the Lord refers to as "[his] people".  Again this reinforces the idea that "the Gentiles" are not "[his] people".

 

 

18 And I will gather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.

 

19 For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it.

 

So in reading chapters 20 and 21, to me the terms "the Gentiles" refers to the gentile nations of which America is prominently among (since the gospel primarily is going forth from America).  The "remnant of the house of Jacob" most likely refers to descendants of Lehi still alive. And "my people" refers to those who accept the Gospel and are converted.  I do not equate "the Gentiles" as referring in any way to some imagined church apostasy.  Although I would accept those who have apostatized individually to be back in "the Gentiles" category.

 

Clear as mud?

 

Now to answer the OP's comments.  If by "us" and "ourselves" you mean us as a nation, I would agree with your interpretation.  I believe fulfillment is forthcoming and will occur when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

[Vort]

It should be noted that "you" can be either a second person or third person address.  Here I'm assuming a second person address and then inferring the descendants to whom the Lord was directly addressing.  It could be that "you" is a third person address in which the Nephites/Lamanites are not being directly addressed and that "you" is just addressing some other remnant of the House of Israel, but I don't put a whole lot on this viewpoint.

 

"You" is never third person under any circumstance. (Unless someone's name is "You", I suppose, and you're talking about him.) I'm not sure what you're saying here.

[cdowis]

"You" is never third person under any circumstance. 

 

Well, yes and no.

 

The "prophetic you", where the prophet is speaking TO the future "you".  But using the present tense, it would be "they", since "you" is not yet born.

 

Thus, "they will" -- I am in the present speaking of future events.  "You" is addressing itself to those in the future who will be reading these words, and fulfilling the prophecy.  Using the "prophetic tense" -- the present tense to describe future events.

 

This "prophetic grammar" is a world unto itself and can be rather confusing..

Edited September 17, 2015 by cdowis

[cdowis]

So verse 16 is seems to be talking about the righteous Nephites/Lamanites gathered at Bountiful, or at least their surviving remnant in our day.

etc etc 

 

 

I appreciate your effort.  I just don' t have the time or incentive to pick apart your argument here, so let's just agree to disagree.

Edited September 17, 2015 by cdowis

[f1lbr]

Well, yes and no.

 

The "prophetic you", where the prophet is speaking TO the future "you".  But using the present tense, it would be "they", since "you" is not yet born.

 

Thus, "they will" -- I am in the present speaking of future events.  "You" is addressing itself to those in the future who will be reading these words, and fulfilling the prophecy.  Using the "prophetic tense" -- the present tense to describe future events.

 

This "prophetic grammar" is a world unto itself and can be rather confusing..

 

Well stated.

 

I appreciate your effort.  I just don' t have the time or incentive to pick apart your argument here, so let's just agree to disagree.

 

OK.  I'm not sure what part we are disagreeing on, but I guess we can agree that we don't agree on something in the mix.  :)

[priesthoodpower]

The only prophesy I care to look out for is the Saviors return. Everything else is a natural cycle of lifes ups and downs.

[cdowis]

Have you read Matt 24 in the Pearl of Great Price lately?

Just curious.