Matt 8: 30 - 32

[askandanswer]

(New Testament | Matthew 8:30 - 32)

30  And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31  So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32  And he said unto them, Go.  And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

 

In allowing the evil spirits into the swine, did Jesus give priority to the interest of the evil spirits by granting them permission to enter another living body, even though those bodies only lived for as long as it took them to run into the sea, over the interests of the swine owner/s (?) and the swine herders who earned their livelihood by looking after the swine? 

[hagoth]

(New Testament | Matthew 8:30 - 32)

30  And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31  So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32  And he said unto them, Go.  And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

 

In allowing the evil spirits into the swine, did Jesus give priority to the interest of the evil spirits by granting them permission to enter another living body, even though those bodies only lived for as long as it took them to run into the sea, over the interests of the swine owner/s (?) and the swine herders who earned their livelihood by looking after the swine? 

? Did Jews herd swine?

 

In such a context, isn't it more likely a case of the herd of swine being wild instead?

[hagoth]

I stand corrected. Mark 5 says they were being tended.

[hagoth]

Given the context, perhaps the herders weren't believing Jews?... https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/11.7?lang=eng#6

Or were tending the swine for Gentiles?

[Vort]

The so-called "prodigal son" was portrayed as a Jewish swineherd. Jesus went among Jews, not Gentiles, in his ministry. Both these things argue toward Jews tending swine as hired hands. I don't know, though. I have always thought of them as Gentiles.

[Traveler]

(New Testament | Matthew 8:30 - 32)

30  And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31  So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32  And he said unto them, Go.  And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

 

In allowing the evil spirits into the swine, did Jesus give priority to the interest of the evil spirits by granting them permission to enter another living body, even though those bodies only lived for as long as it took them to run into the sea, over the interests of the swine owner/s (?) and the swine herders who earned their livelihood by looking after the swine? 

 

It is my impression that there are times that as we attempt to drill down and glean tidbits of information from scripture we can come to wrong conclusions.  There may be more to learn from the symbolism in the narrative.  First off, keep in mind that it was forbidden for Jews to eat pork.  What swine were kept, were only maintained as a garbage disposable that included human waste.  In Jewish society there was no animal more disrespected than swine.  The worse job in the world to an ancient Jew would be a tender of swine.   This is why swine were use symbolically in the parable of the prodigal son.

 

I believe the purpose of the scripture was to demonstrate the desperateness of the unclean spirits and despite their desperate plight; their willingness to degrade themselves for swine and also that despite their hatred of Christ their respect of him and willingness to accept whatever they could get from him.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Traveler

[laronius]

When Jesus told the demonic spirits to "Go" I don't know if we know exactly what was meant, whether he was giving assent to their request or if he was simply saying "You are free to try" because apparently even the swine sought some way to rid themselves of their presence by casting themselves into the sea. If it were easy for demons to possess animal bodies we would probably hear a lot more about Cujo animals. It can't be good to be an evil spirit when even the mostly lowly animal in the world knows (and is able) to reject you.

[pkstpaul]

I see the relevance of using the swine purely as having a physical manifestation of the miracle. It was a way to demonstrate the spirits where real and that they are dangerous. The fact that the spirits asked to go to the swine shows the spirits recogition of their being subject to Christ.

 

I see no relevance to the fact they were pigs and not geese or some other animal. Just because Jews didn't eat pigs doesn't mean they didn't own or tend them. There is use for the animal other than the meat.

Edited September 18, 2015 by pkstpaul

[Just_A_Guy]

The so-called "prodigal son" was portrayed as a Jewish swineherd. Jesus went among Jews, not Gentiles, in his ministry. Both these things argue toward Jews tending swine as hired hands. I don't know, though. I have always thought of them as Gentiles.

 

The area where this happened was the Decapolis, to the southeast of the Sea of Galilee.  It was on the fringes of the traditional Jewish homeland (and, in fact, of the Roman Empire), and there were plenty of gentiles there.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

I see no relevance to the fact they were pigs and not geese or some other animal. Just because Jews didn't eat pigs doesn't mean they didn't own or tend them. There is use for the animal other than the meat.

 

Swine were considered "unclean". If I understand the cultural implications of that term correctly, they were not merely unfit to eat, but you actually did not want even to touch them. I would assume that an observant Jew of the time would about as likely to tend swine as an active Mormon farmer would grow tobacco -- which is to say, it's possible, but probably uncommon. I could be wrong, of course, but that's my understanding.

[askandanswer]

but back to the main question - is it true that Christ gave preference to the interests of evil spirits over the life of living animals? Evil spirits in the pre-existence were cast out, not transferred into other life forms. 

[Vort]

but back to the main question - is it true that Christ gave preference to the interests of evil spirits over the life of living animals? Evil spirits in the pre-existence were cast out, not transferred into other life forms. 

 

What is the exact nature of spiritual possession? Answer: We don't know. Maybe it doesn't even make sense for a spirit (evil or otherwise) to "possess" a non-human body. There are almost certainly things going on here that we don't understand even enough to ask about. An explanation of this occurrence probably would not make any sense without a bunch of other basic background that has not been given to us.

[Irishcolleen]

I guess that would depend on whether animals have souls are not.  I have not come to a conclusion on that.  It could go either way based on my studies of the  Bible.  There is no call to convert animals, so one can't assume they are accountable for sin... I think that if animals have souls, then the would be taken care of in heaven.  If not, well, they would just be bacon.

[Anddenex]

(New Testament | Matthew 8:30 - 32)

30  And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31  So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32  And he said unto them, Go.  And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

 

In allowing the evil spirits into the swine, did Jesus give priority to the interest of the evil spirits by granting them permission to enter another living body, even though those bodies only lived for as long as it took them to run into the sea, over the interests of the swine owner/s (?) and the swine herders who earned their livelihood by looking after the swine? 

 

 

In short, the answer would be a direct "yes."  The command given by Jehovah, granting the fallen, pig bodies superseded the swine owners and herders.

 

Within a Kingdom, whose swine were they really the King of kings, or the owner? And within a Kingdom what is the interest, or should be the interest?  Or possibly as Job said, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away -- blessed be the name of my Lord.

[askandanswer]

I wonder if from this event we can draw a very tentative, wholly unreliable, but possible conclusion that human spirits take priority over, or a more important than, animal bodies. This idea is not overtly taught in the scriptures or by modern day prophets and apostles, as far as I know, but if we drill down,as Traveller put it, we may find additional tidbits of information which could be used to support or demolish this conclusion. And if enough supportive tidbits are found, we could begin to build a less unreliable, better supported conclusion.  

[Just_A_Guy]

but back to the main question - is it true that Christ gave preference to the interests of evil spirits over the life of living animals?

Err . . . Would these be the "living animals" that were being raised specifically so that someday someone could kill them and eat them?

Animal life should be respected and not taken needlessly, and deliberate cruelty to animals is always wrong. But I don't see anything in our scriptures or teaching that could ever be honestly construed as suggesting parity of value between human versus animal life.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[askandanswer]

Err . . . Would these be the "living animals" that were being raised specifically so that someday someone could kill them and eat them?

Animal life should be respected and not taken needlessly, and deliberate cruelty to animals is always wrong. But I don't see anything in our scriptures or teaching that could ever be honestly construed as suggesting parity of value between human versus animal life.

 

I'm, not suggesting that there is parity between human and animal life. In fact Genesis 1:26 seems to slightly support the opposite conclusion - that man has dominion over the animals. So on the scale of values between man and animals, it seems to be man is somewhere above the animals. I'm suggesting that on that same scale of values, the incident referred to in Matt 8:30 - 32 points to another point on that scale, that of spirits, and that on that scale, humans are at the top, spirits in the middle, and animals at the bottom, the evidence for this very tentative conclusion being that Christ gave preference to the interests of evil spirits over the interests of the animals. Of course its a highly tentative and speculative conclusion, but I don't think it should be dismissed altogether at this point without having been further considered and discussed.

[Traveler]

Err . . . Would these be the "living animals" that were being raised specifically so that someday someone could kill them and eat them?

Animal life should be respected and not taken needlessly, and deliberate cruelty to animals is always wrong. But I don't see anything in our scriptures or teaching that could ever be honestly construed as suggesting parity of value between human versus animal life.

 

There are very real and big differences between modern culture and ancient culture.  You may not have understood my post but swine were not use for eating.  Swine were use to dispose of human excrement - among other things.  Tending swine could shorten an individuals life span eating swine could result is contracting verious diseases and parasites.   The uncleanness of swine was not just religious superstition - they really were creatures of filth.

 

In our modern culture hunger is not the same as it was anciently - anyone that ate swine was most desperate and had to be on the verge of starvation.  We may say we are starving in our culture but the reality is - we are just a little hungry because it has been 3 hours since we last ate.  Real starving people are not over weight - not even a little.

[spamlds]

Sometimes it's interesting to look at the question of whether or not the Gergesenes (Gadarenes) keeping pigs was in violation of the Law of Moses from a non-Christian source.  In this case, the online "Jewish Encyclopedia" discusses the seeming discrepancy with the Law of Moses and the "alleged" miracle (from their point of view) done by Jesus.  

 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6458-gadarenes

By: Executive Committee of the Editorial Board., Joseph Jacobs

Inhabitants of Gadara, known from an alleged miracle of Jesus (Matt. viii.; Mark v.; Luke viii.) in which he transferred the demons afflicting a man to a number of swine, that thereupon rushed down a steep hill and perished. From the readings of the best texts and from the unsuitability of the locality around Gadara it appears that the proper reading should be "Gerasenes" and the place located at Karsa, on the left bank of the Wadi Samak, near the sea of Galilee. A discussion occurred between Professor Huxley and Mr. Gladstone in "The Nineteenth Century" for 1892 as to the morality of the act, the critical questions being whether (1) Gerasenes were Jews; and (2) if so, was it lawful for them to keep swine? As regards the first question, it would appear that that section of the country was chiefly inhabited by pagans in the first century, and Gerasa is at any rate included by Schürer among the Hellenistic cities ("Geschichte," ii. 141-144). As to the second question, there is no doubt of the illegality, from a ritual point of view, of Jews keeping swine (B. B. vii. 7). The Gemara on the passage gives a historical foundation for the practise in the times of Aristobulus.

Bibliography:

• The Nineteenth Century, 1892, passim;
• Cheyne, Encyc. Bibl. s.v.;
• Wünsche, Neue Beiträge zur Erläuterung der Evangelien aus Talmud und Midrasch, p. 119.

The Gergasene pig-herders were probably Gentiles, but we have to remember that the range of compliance with the Jewish traditions varied.  Not every Jew was observant and it could be the case that the lure of profit was more irresistible than keeping the Law.

[Rhoades]

I don't think we can conclude that the interests of evil spirits were given priority over the interests of the owners and herders.

 

Perhaps what was done was in the best interest of the owners and herders.  The herders were so amazed they "went their ways into the city, and told every thing" (vs 33).  With our imperfect understanding we can't fully comprehend all of the benefits and drawbacks at play in this decision.  This miracle could have been a very good opportunity for them to learn that Jesus is the Christ.  Such knowledge is more valuable than a herd of swine.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Rhoades