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Hello all! I've posted here a few times about my journey possibly converting from Catholicism to LDS. I've been studying with the missionaries, attending church and ward events, and praying. A lot. I still have many roadblocks to baptism, but one issue I'm worried about is a seeming reluctance to intellectual query within the church. As a Catholic, we are encouraged to dig, to challenge, to seek answers, and faith is a lifelong process. I know this is an old quote, but I recently read that BoydPacker stated that "the three greatest threats to the church were homosexuals, feminists and intellectuals." Ouch.

 

So there it is. It might be telling to say that one of my favorite public Mormons is Joanna Brooks. I can't find anything by her held by Deseret Book, and I wonder if that says something?

 

In your experience, is this reluctance to admit intellectualism among ward members typical? Do you see it changing anytime soon? While I love so much about the LDS church, this scares me a little. There are so many who have been excommunicated for their thoughts and open speech that it seems a bit draconian to me. So I'm hesitating furthering any talk of baptism with the missionaries until I feel that new voices and perspectives are welcome.

Edited by Catlick
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No one has been excommunicated for their thoughts. I doubt anyone has been excommunicated for their beliefs, or even for expressing them. But people can and do get excommunicated when the come out in open rebellion and work against the Church, preach false doctrine, or attempt to tear down the Church's leaders or their fellow members.

 

"Intellectualism" is simply another human endeavor, like camping or soccer. Saying that the Church doesn't emphasize intellectualism enough is like saying the Church doesn't give enough support to camping or sports programs.

 

Truth is learned through the Spirit, and in no other way. Our concern with the Church should be in helping ourselves and our brothers and sisters to gain the Spirit.

 

As for Elder Packer's statement, he said that many years ago. Time has since vindicated him as a true prophet.

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Oh, you've hit a nerve with me. I'm a former Catholic as well. While I'm certainly no intellectual, I did graduate from college, and I love reading about philosophy. It was my minor in college. I also speak two languages fluently.   

 

The term "intellectual" almost always means "I think I'm smarter than you." No, I am NOT claiming that you are saying that. Just my thoughts. Usually the smartest people are aware of how little they know. 

 

Often times LDS are very sensitive (with good cause) because most "intellectuals" think they can magically debunk your faith with their commanding logic and brilliant minds. They can't.   

 

 That said, reason is very important to me. What Boyd Packer said is disturbing. I investigated the church big time-I read every anti-LDS book I possibly could (most LDS avoid them to their own detriment-how can you rebut a book you haven't read?) and I made my own arguments against the church. Also, sometimes the church does place too high an emphasis on feelings over logic.  

Eventually, I did my own version of the Christ conundrum that CS Lewis did. Christ was either a Lord, liar, or lunatic. I said "The LDS church claims that they are the true, restored church. Logically, they are either lying, insane, or true." I took a leap of faith and decided they were true. 

Many LDS go into law, medicine, engineering, etc-you need to have some mental power to do those jobs, so don't think that LDS aren't bright or intellectual.  We are. 

And one of the best ways to prove you aren't an intellectual is to say you are. It's like a "humble" person saying they are humble.  

Edited by MormonGator
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No one has been excommunicated for their thoughts. I doubt anyone has been excommunicated for their beliefs, or even for expressing them. But people can and do get excommunicated when the come out in open rebellion and work against the Church, preach false doctrine, or attempt to tear down the Church's leaders or their fellow members.

 

That makes sense. I can see why denying church beliefs or working against them would get someone kicked out. I guess I'm just used to more theological scholarship being available for discussion in my church, and we typically have study groups and a vocal group of people who approach the Bible and Catholic teachings with a variety of perspectives and personal experiences. So it is taking me some getting used to more of a 'hive mind' approach. Something to think about. Thanks, Vort.

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Article of Faith 13:

... We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

 

 

The LDS Church encourages people to think for themselves.  This is the exercise of Agency.  Intellectualism is, of course, praiseworthy if it is of good report.  The problem with intellectualism is pride.  There is the danger that the more somebody delves into mortal pursuits without the spiritual, they end up using their intellect to reason God away as they find themselves thinking their empirical and philosophical evidences are sufficient and faith is not only unnecessary but folly.

 

So, having grown up in Catholic School, the saying, "Beware of theologians lest they ruin your faith", is a common theme.  It is, of course, ironic because the head of the school and many of the teachers are Priests who are Masters of Theology.  The saying is used to warn the students that all intellectual pursuits within the Catholic School is the objective but it is taught (and must be learned) through the prism of faith.

 

President Packer's warning against intellectuals is simply an echo of my Catholic School's saying.

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Thanks for the replies, MormonGator and The Folk Prophet. Yes, 'intellectualism' is vague--what I mean is scholarship, a more intellectual approach to the gospel (rather than just feelings), a deeper study of church history, and most importantly, discussion among church members. And I hope I don't sound like an academic snob--I can see that the word "intellectualism" can smack of that. But I'm a nerd at heart, and I love researching, I love talking to others, and I'm a searcher. I can't help it, it's in my nature. Which is why I identify so much with the things that Joanna Brooks says--I've heard her podcasts and I think it's sad and a bit creepy that she has to parse her words and watch what she says for fear of the church authorities coming down on her. These are just my impressions as an outsider, and I truly want to reconcile this reluctance on my part with so much good and truth that I've learned from the church so far.

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Thanks for the replies, MormonGator and The Folk Prophet. Yes, 'intellectualism' is vague--what I mean is scholarship, a more intellectual approach to the gospel (rather than just feelings), a deeper study of church history, and most importantly, discussion among church members. And I hope I don't sound like an academic snob--

 You are asking the same questions I did my friend.  You raise some great points. Feelings are important, but so is reason. Since feelings are so subjective, it's easy to misread them. IE-A woman might leave her husband of thirty years to hook up with her boyfriend because it "feels right". 

Cool thing though-the case could easily be argued that if Joseph Smith himself didn't ask questions, we wouldn't have the resorted gospel.   

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That makes sense. I can see why denying church beliefs or working against them would get someone kicked out. I guess I'm just used to more theological scholarship being available for discussion in my church, and we typically have study groups and a vocal group of people who approach the Bible and Catholic teachings with a variety of perspectives and personal experiences. So it is taking me some getting used to more of a 'hive mind' approach. Something to think about. Thanks, Vort.

 

There is testimony meeting every first Sunday of the month where people are encouraged to share their own perspectives and personal experiences in the application of gospel truths.  There is also Visiting Teaching and Home Teaching and Family Home Evening where these types of discussions occur.  And then there are all the BYU schools and all the vast intellectual material that comes out of there.  And then there is fairmormon.org and lds.net and all the other discussion groups available for those who want to discuss more of the stuff.  And there are books galore on the LDS Church including history and all that stuff.

 

I don't really see where there is a lack in the LDS Church in theological scholarship.  The Catholic Church, of course, has centuries and millions of membership over the LDS Church that has provided material after material for study.  200 years versus 2,000 years is quite a dramatic difference.

 

But, the LDS Church focuses mainly on learning through the Spirit.  Therefore, all scholarship is supposed to be done through Him that enlightens and testifies truth of all things.

Edited by anatess
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MormonGator, exactly! One of the things that drew me to this church was that I could so relate to Joseph Smith. I read his story and thought, "That is exactly where I am! Which is the true church? Where do I go?" So the fact that those questions seem to be discouraged is someone concerning to a newcomer like me.

Edited by Catlick
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MormonGator, exactly! One of the things that drew me to this church was that I could so relate to Joseph Smith. I read his story and thought, "That is exactly where I am? Which is the true church? Where do I go?" So the fact that those questions seem to be discouraged is someone concerning to a newcomer like me.

 Same here! I relate to him as well. Big time. 

And I read Packers quotes before i joined the church too. They were troubling to me then, and even though I respect Packer 100%, they still sort of trouble me. 

 

Read everything you can. Anti-church and pro-church. Make up your own mind. 

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MormonGator, exactly! One of the things that drew me to this church was that I could so relate to Joseph Smith. I read his story and thought, "That is exactly where I am! Which is the true church? Where do I go?" So the fact that those questions seem to be discouraged is someone concerning to a newcomer like me.

 

 

There's nothing factual about those questions being discouraged.  I've never felt that in the Church.  What I do notice is that not many people in the wards I've been to like talking about gospel principles through intellectual study.

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There is testimony meeting every first Sunday of the month where people are encouraged to share their own perspectives and personal experiences in the application of gospel truths.  There is also Visiting Teaching and Home Teaching and Family Home Evening where these types of discussions occur.  And then there are all the BYU schools and all the vast intellectual material that comes out of there.  And then there is fairmormon.org and lds.net and all the other discussion groups available for those who want to discuss more of the stuff.  And there are books galore on the LDS Church including history and all that stuff.

 

Great point, anatess. There is a lot of new Mormon scholarship coming out, though mostly authored by authorities of the church. I guess what I'm really asking is if there is room for questioning. I feel that it wouldn't be very easy to have a faith crisis while Mormon. I tend to question a lot, and I'm feeling that there may not be a place for someone like me in the cultural fabric of the church. And it's not that I'm a rabble rouser--it's just that I think a lot, and I question a lot, and I want to know if there would be somewhere I could go to ask the hard questions, like questioning surrounding the Kinderhook plates, the Salamander letter, Book of Abraham--the list goes on. I just want to feel that there is a strong foundation to the feelings I have regarding the Book of Mormon, or if I would be censured (not censored) for asking.

Edited by Catlick
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There's nothing factual about those questions being discouraged.  I've never felt that in the Church.

On the contrary, there actually is. I've met LDS who simply refuse to read certain books or ignore uncomfortable history. When their children get exposed to it, it will crumble and crush their faith  because they'll think the church is hiding something from them. 

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Very, very brief rebuttals to your three points: 

The Salamander letter is a total fraud created by an exposed liar/convicted murderer. 

 

The book of Abraham is misunderstood. Even LDS don't get it. 

The Kinderhook plates have nothing to do with Smith. 

 

You might really like the book "Shaken Faith Syndrome" by Michael Ash. 

 

Also, read "Rough Stone Rolling" by Richard Bushman. 

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On the contrary, there actually is. I've met LDS who simply refuse to read certain books or ignore uncomfortable history. When their children get exposed to it, it will crumble and crush their faith  because they'll think the church is hiding something from them. 

 

Individuals being uncomfortable and discouraging it among their spheres of influence does not equate the Church discouraging it.  We do have a very long history of anti-Mormons causing us trouble...

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There's nothing factual about those questions being discouraged.  I've never felt that in the Church.  What I do notice is that not many people in the wards I've been to like talking about gospel principles through intellectual study.

Interesting. It's good to ask people who are members of the church rather than trying to get a sense of things from podcasts and news articles. Thanks for weighing in, anatess, that is really helpful. I do want to fit in, and I don't want to be a pain in the butt person who wants to explore my faith via intellectual study. I just don't know that people in my ward do that sort of thing. It helps to know that there aren't too many in your ward who talk about the gospel in a scholarship sense. I get that same feeling at the ward I've been attending. Okay, I'll definitely chew on this.

Edited by Catlick
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Individuals being uncomfortable and discouraging it among their spheres of influence does not equate the Church discouraging it.  We do have a very long history of anti-Mormons causing us trouble...

 I respectfully disagree. Anti-LDS people DO lie and cause trouble but that doesn't mean you should equate "honest questions and critique" with "you are just being anti-lds"

 

The reason questions don't bother me is I'm confident that church is true and can rebuke all of them.   

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Great point, anatess. There is a lot of new Mormon scholarship coming out, though mostly authored by authorities of the church. I guess what I'm really asking is if there is room for questioning. I feel that it wouldn't be very easy to have a faith crisis while Mormon. I tend to question a lot, and I'm feeling that there may not be a place for someone like me in the cultural fabric of the church. And it's not that I'm a rabble rouser--it's just that I think a lot, and I question a lot, and I want to know if there would be somewhere I could go to ask the hard questions, like questioning surrounding the Kinderhook plates, the Salamander letter, Book of Abraham--the list goes on. I just want to feel that there is a strong foundation to the feelings I have regarding the Book of Mormon, or if I would be censured (not censored) for asking.

 

The beauty of the internet is that the answers to all your questions are available online if you know where to look.  The problem of the internet is that it will be a challenge for you to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

Therefore, these types of questions are not addressed by the Church in Church Meetings as they are not faith-promoting (the objective of having a Church).  The advice is always - build your faith and seek the truth of the Restored Gospel through the testimony of the Holy Spirit.  After that, then you can go and seek after these hard questions as you have the testimony of the Holy Ghost to help you wade through the chaff.

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And it's not that I'm a rabble rouser--it's just that I think a lot, and I question a lot, and I want to know if there would be somewhere I could go to ask the hard questions, like questioning surrounding the Kinderhook plates, the Salamander letter, Book of Abraham--the list goes on.

 

Not sure what that is a list of, but it is certainly not a list of "hard questions".

 

On the contrary, there actually is. I've met LDS who simply refuse to read certain books or ignore uncomfortable history. When their children get exposed to it, it will crumble and crush their faith  because they'll think the church is hiding something from them. 

 

I am one of them. I generally avoid anti-Mormon writing because I recognize it for the disease it is. I read it only when I feel it's necessary; I dislike spending my time in the company of liars, and without exception (that I can remember), anti-Mormon books spew lies. I also avidly discourage people from spending time with such excrement, the way I would discourage them from swimming in an open sewer.

 

But that does not mean I think the liars are actually onto something. They are not. It means only that I prefer those I love not to be exposed to the vomit the antis have to offer. No different from pornography, really. Both are vile misrepresentations of truth that lead you inexorably away from the Spirit.

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 I respectfully disagree. Anti-LDS people DO lie and cause trouble but that doesn't mean you should equate "honest questions and critique" with "you are just being anti-lds"

 

The reason questions don't bother me is I'm confident that church is true and can rebuke all of them.   

MormonGator--thanks for rebutting the issues I've been wondering about! I don't actually take stock in things like the Salamander letter, but I want to be able to ask without feeling like I'm offending. And that is the feeling I get when I ask ward members about uncomfortable issues from the past--I am not anti-Mormon in the least (I get heated when I hear anti-Mormon rhetoric). But I want to be able to explore those issues and not dismiss them outright. I'm someone who needs to put things on the table, dissect them, and understand them. I don't want to feel that asking about sticky issues is offensive.

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Not sure what that is a list of, but it is certainly not a list of "hard questions".

 

 

I am one of them. I generally avoid anti-Mormon writing because I recognize it for the disease it is. I read it only when I feel it's necessary; I dislike spending my time in the company of liars, and without exception (that I can remember), anti-Mormon books spew lies. I also avidly discourage people from spending time with such excrement, the way I would discourage them from swimming in an open sewer.

 

But that does not mean I think the liars are actually onto something. They are not. It means only that I prefer those I love not to be exposed to the vomit the antis have to offer. No different from pornography, really. Both are vile misrepresentations of truth that lead you inexorably away from the Spirit.

Vort, you know I have nothing but love for you, so I ask this question honestly with no bad intentions-how can you argue a point if you haven't read the other side? I ask in honesty, nothing else. 

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 I respectfully disagree. Anti-LDS people DO lie and cause trouble but that doesn't mean you should equate "honest questions and critique" with "you are just being anti-lds"

 

The reason questions don't bother me is I'm confident that church is true and can rebuke all of them.   

 

I never said asking questions make you anti-lds.  I am stating that the membership of the wards I've been to are uncomfortable with this type of study because of a psychological(?) response from many years of having been attacked by anti-Mormons who always use these controversial stuff to destroy people's faith.

 

The reason questions don't bother you because you have faith.  The reason questions have the potential of hurting you if, like Catlick, you are still struggling with your faith.

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MormonGator--thanks for rebutting the issues I've been wondering about! I don't actually take stock in things like the Salamander letter, but I want to be able to ask without feeling like I'm offending. And that is the feeling I get when I ask ward members about uncomfortable issues from the past--I am not anti-Mormon in the least (I get heated when I hear anti-Mormon rhetoric). But I want to be able to explore those issues and not dismiss them outright. I'm someone who needs to put things on the table, dissect them, and understand them. I don't want to feel that asking about sticky issues is offensive.

 You are very welcome. I could talk about this stuff for hours. 

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