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Guest LiterateParakeet

hagoth, your 3-legged stool example is how I've always experienced faith, thank you for that. And thanks for the D&C links--those are very helpful in remembering that heavenly logic is on a level that I cannot understand as a human. That requires humility, and I know my pride gets in the way of that. Something more to pray on.

 

estradling75, you make a good point. I think that my coming from a non-LDS background, I tend to assume that religions all have that theological background and desire/ability to discuss the deeper issues. Someone mentioned in this thread that I'm not questioning doctrine at this point, but culture of the church. I have a fear holding me back that I won't fit in, that I'll question at some point in my life (I always do in matters of faith), and that I'll keep thinking like a Catholic (even though I don't ascribe to Catholic doctrine). Oy vey.

 

About pride...I was going to say I struggle with pride too, but then remembered that we are ALL prideful creatures (whether we recognize it or not). Pride can take many forms, intellectualism is but one.

I can't predict the future, of course, but I can tell you what I experienced when I had a lot of questions.  At first it was hard to find someone to talk to, even the people who had questions had questions different than my own.  But I kept looking because I  was determined, and you are showing that you are as well, and eventually I not only found people to talk to that do understand, but also I found the answers I needed so desperately.  

 

Something I can tell you with a surety (and you will agree) is that the Lord will not leave you alone on your journey.  That is the most important thing.  That sounds too obvious to be worth mentioning, but what I mean is He knows what we can handle.   So for example tithing--in church you will almost always hear stories about people who paid their tithing when they didn't have enough money to do that and pay the bills, and then something miraculous happened and they were blessed to do both--but only after they took the step of faith and paid their tithing.  Those stories are awesome and I have a few of them myself.  

 

But the Lord doesn't want us to get to a certain level and stagnate, so He may allow that a financial situation may arise, and you faithfully pay your tithing, but then the heavenly rescue will not come.  Instead, the Lord will bless you through a helpful Bishop, and the storehouse.  (You know about the storehouse, where people who are having hard times can get food and toiletries, right?)  Most of the people at the storehouse are full-tithe payers too....but you could say they are having their faith tested at a different level.

Where this applies to you is that whatever questions you have the Lord will be there and make certain you get the help you need.  The more your faith grows, the harder you might have to stretch for it---and perhaps, if you are like me, you might feel very much abandoned by the Lord in your search.  But if you keep trying, and I believe you will, in the end you will not only find the answers you seek, but you will know that the Lord was with you the whole way.  Even when you thought you were utterly alone.

 

That is what I believe you will experience as a member...or as a non-member even.   :)  

By the way, did you know that Brigham Young investigated the church for about three years before joining.  I surmise from that that like you, he had a lot of questions that he needed to work through.  You are in good company.  My husband is like this as well.  Like MormonGator, my husband read everything about the church both pro and anti (he was a teenager at the time).  Most people don't approach the gospel that way, but some do.  That's okay.  The Lord can use all of us.  Yes, you too!

 

 

ETA:  Oops, Bro Brigham investigated the church for TWO years.  Here's a link:

http://www.stgeorgetemplevisitorscenter.info/by/byconversion.html

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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estradling75, you make a good point. I think that my coming from a non-LDS background, I tend to assume that religions all have that theological background and desire/ability to discuss the deeper issues.

 

Mormons have as much desire as anyone to discuss the deeper issues, and far more ability than most. But many people consider the trivial, mechanistic nonsense of religion as being the "deeper issues".

 

Platonism and traditional philosophy will never lead you to the deeper things of the Spirit. These are given by God to those who have prepared themselves. Worldly learning is of little or no consequence in understanding the deeper things.

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Guest MormonGator

Mormons have as much desire as anyone to discuss the deeper issues, and far more ability than most. But many people consider the trivial, mechanistic nonsense of religion as being the "deeper issues".

 

Platonism and traditional philosophy will never lead you to the deeper things of the Spirit. These are given by God to those who have prepared themselves. Worldly learning is of little or no consequence in understanding the deeper things.

 Plato-no. Aristotle-maybe.

:P

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The necessity of faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end is the same for all people in any age regardless of what level of information is available to them.  Thus God, in His infinite mercy and kindness, has provided a way for all human beings to come to a knowledge of truth regarding Him without needing a level of intellectualism available only to some.  Intellect is great, and learning is a blessing.  God knows all things and intends for us, His children, to become like Him.  We will be ever learning and ever coming to truth upon truth if we follow Him, but to know that He is must be possible for anyone in any age who has strong desire, faith in Christ, and real intent.  It has to be possible for all to know God and the folly of intellectualism seems to be declaring that only the truly learned, as to the things of the world, have any hope of knowing for a truth if God is real or not and if His restored church is true or not.  I very much enjoy learning from academics what they've discovered about this or that archeological find or event in church history but I don't need that learning when it comes to if God lives, or if the LDS church is true, or if Joseph Smith is a prophet, or if the Book of Mormon is true. 

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estradling75, you make a good point. I think that my coming from a non-LDS background, I tend to assume that religions all have that theological background and desire/ability to discuss the deeper issues. Someone mentioned in this thread that I'm not questioning doctrine at this point, but culture of the church. I have a fear holding me back that I won't fit in, that I'll question at some point in my life (I always do in matters of faith), and that I'll keep thinking like a Catholic (even though I don't ascribe to Catholic doctrine). Oy vey.

 

Here's my understanding of how most non-LDS Christian works-

* One individual feels very motivated to learn about God, so he decides to make this his career, goes to ~8 years of formal book learning to become an "expert"

* A congregation wants someone to tell them what the Bible says, so they interview and hire the above expert.  Expert then dispenses out knowledge for the congregation members to consume.  

 

 

LDS are of the philosophy that knowing God is best learned by going, doing, and following His ways.  And that we are should learn and read the Bible ourselves.   Some LDS learn best via book learning and philosophy, some may learn via prayer, some via song, some learn best by serving others.  All are Good if they bring us closer to God.  So the individual whom leads the local congregation may be a book-learner, but he may also be a service-learner or prayer-learner.  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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Guest MormonGator

When I joined the church I had a family member tell me that 'The more research you do about it the more you will find that is uncomfortable" To me, it was the polar opposite. The more I researched into Smith and his life, the more I became absolutely convinced that he was a legit, 100% prophet of God. My investigation helped my testimony. Still does. 

Edited by MormonGator
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When I joined the church I had a family member tell me that 'The more research you do about it the more you will find that is uncomfortable" To me, it was the polar opposite. The more I researched into Smith and his life, the more I became absolutely convinced that he was a legit, 100% prophet of God. My investigation helped my testimony. Still does. 

 

This is interesting because I feel the same way about LDS.

 

What's interesting is that what your family member said matches my experience as a Roman Catholic.  It didn't shake my faith but it was uncomfortable for me and my family and my teachers wrote me off as the rebel who has "weak faith".

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Guest MormonGator

This is interesting because I feel the same way about LDS.

 

What's interesting is that what your family member said matches my experience as a Roman Catholic.  It didn't shake my faith but it was uncomfortable for me and my family and my teachers wrote me off as the rebel who has "weak faith".

 Oh I agree! So often whenI questioned anything about the RC faith I was told to (literally, this is verbatim) "Shut up and pray about it." 

 

No one in the LDS world has ever told me to "shut up and pray about it" They actually talk to me. 

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 Oh I agree! So often whenI questioned anything about the RC faith I was told to (literally, this is verbatim) "Shut up and pray about it." 

 

No one in the LDS world has ever told me to "shut up and pray about it" They actually talk to me. 

 

They didn't tell me to shut up and pray about it... I was in Catholic School... but I get the "it's a mystery, only God knows" answers which is also present in the LDS faith... but, my heart is uncomfortable with these "catch all" answers in the RC faith while I'm perfectly comfortable with them in the LDS faith.  I always felt there was "something more to this" in the RC faith.  Whereas when I became LDS, I truly felt that "it hasn't been revealed" is sufficient.

 

I'm not sure if I'm explaining it clearly.  Sorry.  It's very weird.

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Guest MormonGator

No, it makes perfect sense. Like you, I was raised Catholic an went to Catholic school from 6th-12th grade. 

Speaking only for myself, I found it incredibly constricting and there was a certain "chilling effect". Questions were not allowed. 

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I live in California, and we don't have any LDS bookstores that I know of. I'll check out Deseret Book and the others you mention online, but I'd love to physically browse an LDS bookstore! I've gotta make that Salt Lake road trip someday, I really do.

 

There are several LDS bookstores in california, this is what google says:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=lds+bookstores+california&oq=lds+bookstores+california

 

San Francisco, Sacramento, Fresno, LA, San Diego. Not necessarily convenient if you live away from all of these places, but if you are ever passing through/by you could go take a look.

Edited by Crypto
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I'm probably late to this, but one reason you get a lot of pushback on the "hard" questions and treated like an anti-mormon when you start asking them is that it can be difficult to distinguish between someone truly wanting to understand and someone posing as someone wanting to understand but actually trying to preach an anti agenda. Both use the same sort of language at the start, and try to sound conciliatory.  The true seeker stays that way, but the anti will slowly turn hostile and contentious. Such an individual generally seeks to sew the spirit of contention wherever he goes.  Since most of us have had more run ins with an anti pretending to be interested but having some questions about some controversial bit or another, than someone actually interested, we tend to be a little put off. 

 

As for intellectualism, it depends on what you mean.  

 

 
“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.” ― George Orwell

Orwell wasn't exactly an intellectual slouch, but there is a lot of truth in his statement.  If the intellectualism isn't tempered by actual life wisdom and life experience, it is less than worthless. 

 

Or as it's put in 2 Nephi 9:28-29

 

28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken notunto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

 29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

 

In other words, there is nothing wrong with being an intellectual, in fact it is good, but only as long as you don't mistake learning for wisdom and believe that you know more than God. 

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Whenever I hear the word "intellectual" I always think of a particular college professor I once had. The man had a PhD and two Masters degrees, was fluent in four languages, and considered himself the smartest man in whatever room he happened to occupy.

One fine winter day he slid his Lincoln off the road and into a ditch, and then asked me if I would be so kind as to help him out.

I pulled my truck up next to his car, handed him the hook on the end of my winch while I rolled out 25 feet of cable, and then turned around and watched in utter amazement as he proceeded to attach the hook to the car’s hood ornament! 

 

Ever since then I’ve not been much impressed with “intellectualism”.  <_<

Edited by Capitalist_Oinker
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 You are asking the same questions I did my friend.  You raise some great points. Feelings are important, but so is reason. Since feelings are so subjective, it's easy to misread them. IE-A woman might leave her husband of thirty years to hook up with her boyfriend because it "feels right". 

Cool thing though-the case could easily be argued that if Joseph Smith himself didn't ask questions, we wouldn't have the resorted gospel.   

I've always found it interesting that when we are to follow the God or the commandments of God it is with all of our Heart, hands/might, and mind.

Edited by Blackmarch
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hagoth, your 3-legged stool example is how I've always experienced faith, thank you for that. And thanks for the D&C links--those are very helpful in remembering that heavenly logic is on a level that I cannot understand as a human. That requires humility, and I know my pride gets in the way of that. Something more to pray on.

You're quite welcome Catlick.

However, to be clear, I didn't actually say that heavenly logic is completely out of reach for a human. I simply shared one passage, among others, which indicated that God's wisdom is higher than ours. God reasons with mankind. God even condescends lovingly to help those who seek Him. As we knock, He opens. As we seek, He helps us find.

 

Logic and intellectualism are not at cross purposes with God. However, pride that often comes with intellectualism is.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/9.28-29?lang=eng#27

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A recent talk by Elder Ballard on this very topic: 'There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions'

 

"Let me make sure that you are hearing my epistle and that you understand this important point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions or investigating our history, doctrine, and practices. The Restoration began when Joseph Smith sought answers to his sincere questions...

 

When someone comes to you with a question or a concern, please do not brush the question off—do not tell him or her to not worry about the question. Please do not doubt the person’s dedication to the Lord or His work. Instead, help the person find the answers to their questions...

 

We have heard stories where someone asking honest questions about our history, doctrine, or practice were treated as though they were faithless. This is not the Lord’s way. As Peter said, “Be ready always to give an answer to every man [or woman] that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you...

 

We need to do better in responding to honest questions. Although we may not be able to answer every question about the cosmos or about our history, practices, or doctrine, we can provide many answers to those who are sincere.

Help those with questions to realize that the Lord does not require His Saints to have advanced degrees in history and Church doctrine... The Church is blessed with trained scholars and those who have devoted a lifetime of study, who have come to know our history and the scriptures. These thoughtful men and women provide context and background so we can better understand our sacred past and our current practices." Russell M. Ballard (September 13, 2015). 

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A recent talk by Elder Ballard on this very topic: 'There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions'

 

"Let me make sure that you are hearing my epistle and that you understand this important point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions or investigating our history, doctrine, and practices. The Restoration began when Joseph Smith sought answers to his sincere questions...

 

When someone comes to you with a question or a concern, please do not brush the question off—do not tell him or her to not worry about the question. Please do not doubt the person’s dedication to the Lord or His work. Instead, help the person find the answers to their questions...

 

We have heard stories where someone asking honest questions about our history, doctrine, or practice were treated as though they were faithless. This is not the Lord’s way. As Peter said, “Be ready always to give an answer to every man [or woman] that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you...

 

We need to do better in responding to honest questions. Although we may not be able to answer every question about the cosmos or about our history, practices, or doctrine, we can provide many answers to those who are sincere.

Help those with questions to realize that the Lord does not require His Saints to have advanced degrees in history and Church doctrine... The Church is blessed with trained scholars and those who have devoted a lifetime of study, who have come to know our history and the scriptures. These thoughtful men and women provide context and background so we can better understand our sacred past and our current practices." Russell M. Ballard (September 13, 2015). 

 

While this is true... there is another aspect to this... Some times people take offense at the honest and sincerely given answers.  There is a reason Prayer, Scripture study, and exercising Faith, are taught repeatedly from primary onward. They are also some of the first things we take for granted.

 

While many who struggle take offense to this, they think it is either too simple (they want harder answers) or they take it as a personal attack (lacking of faith)

 

I think that many of the "challenging" questions we all develop from time to time is part of life's design.  To challenge us to take that leap of faith and trust in the Lord, when we don't have all the answers before us.  When we don't have a logical and rational path laid out in front of us.

 

Telling people that they need to take a leap of faith is generally seen as anti intellectual.  It usually gets labeled things like 'blind obedience' or 'not thinking for themselves'

 

So it is a two way street here while we need to be better at dealing with people with questions.  People with questions need to be better at handling answers that chances are they don't really want to hear.

Edited by estradling75
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Does it strike anyone else that "there's nothing wrong with asking questions" is an oversimplification? Is it not very clear that asking question can be a very, very powerful tool of the Devil, and there can, very much, be something wrong with asking questions? Does that statement not require a conditional, "as long as..." to be complete? As in, why are they asking the question? To learn, or to tear down the church? To humbly seek guidance, or to subtly destroy faith?

 

Is not asking hard question, actually, a very convincing debate tactic that usually has nothing to do with an actual query, but is only phrased that way for the sake of civility?

 

To use this very thought as an answer, if I were to state, "Elder Ballard is wrong when he says there's nothing wrong with asking questions," then I'm openly countering an apostle (for the sake of argument, let's say that's black-and-white "wrong"), so if I instead phrase it as, "Why would Elder Ballard say that there's nothing wrong with asking questions when it can obviously be a tool of Satan to do so?" -- then now being a question, suddenly nothing is wrong now? But isn't the point being made exactly the same?

 

Please note: Everything stated above being pure question, is my point any less that had I not carefully crafted it so?

 

;)

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Before they became apostles, Elder Holland and Elder Oaks both served as Presidents of BYU. President Eyring served as President of Ricks College in Idaho as did Elder Bednar. Elder Bednar and the recently deceased Elder Scott both held Ph.Ds as did former President Benson. Elder Nelson was a fully fledged medical doctor by the age of 22 and later became part of the team that built the the world's first ever heart/lung machine. Elder Oaks served as law clerk to the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court and as an appellate judge in the Utah Supreme Court.Elder Christofferson also served as a law clerk, to the judge who presided over the Watergate trials. I suspect that if any of these men thought that the church had an unhealthy attitude towards healthy intellectualism, they would know about it and do something about it. 

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one issue I'm worried about is a seeming reluctance to intellectual query within the church. 

 

Having a worry about something does not equate to the church not being true, But it we are not careful, having a worry about an aspect of the church could easily lead to a triumph of reason over faith. Just imagine what sort of world it would be, or if there would still be a world, if reason triumphed over faith every time. Or just imagine what kind of life it would be…..

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Does it strike anyone else that "there's nothing wrong with asking questions" is an oversimplification? Is it not very clear that asking question can be a very, very powerful tool of the Devil, and there can, very much, be something wrong with asking questions? Does that statement not require a conditional, "as long as..." to be complete? As in, why are they asking the question? To learn, or to tear down the church? To humbly seek guidance, or to subtly destroy faith?

 

Is not asking hard question, actually, a very convincing debate tactic that usually has nothing to do with an actual query, but is only phrased that way for the sake of civility?

 

To use this very thought as an answer, if I were to state, "Elder Ballard is wrong when he says there's nothing wrong with asking questions," then I'm openly countering an apostle (for the sake of argument, let's say that's black-and-white "wrong"), so if I instead phrase it as, "Why would Elder Ballard say that there's nothing wrong with asking questions when it can obviously be a tool of Satan to do so?" -- then now being a question, suddenly nothing is wrong now? But isn't the point being made exactly the same?

 

Please note: Everything stated above being pure question, is my point any less that had I not carefully crafted it so?

 

;)

 

Pulling up the Merrian-Webster dictionary: 

 

ask- 

: to say or write something to someone as a way of gaining information : to request an answer to a question

 

If someone is legitimately asking something, they are seeking information, and that is a GOOD thing.

 

Someone whom is not seeking information but instead playing word games to execute an agenda, is NOT really asking, regardless of how they phrase their punctuation marks.  

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Someone whom is not seeking information but instead playing word games to execute an agenda, is NOT really asking, regardless of how they phrase their punctuation marks.  

 

I agree with this, but it becomes itself a word game. The anti-Mormon piously claims, "I'm only asking a simple question so as to understand the truth. Aren't you in favor of the truth?" See, another question.

 

Honest questions are always welcome, when appropriate. (There are inappropriate times to ask even honest questions.) It's too easy to ask a leading or otherwise dishonest question and then retreat to a claim that it's an honest question when someone calls you out on it. This is what I understood TFP's point to be, and I agree.

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Pulling up the Merrian-Webster dictionary: 

 

ask- 

: to say or write something to someone as a way of gaining information : to request an answer to a question

 

If someone is legitimately asking something, they are seeking information, and that is a GOOD thing.

 

Someone whom is not seeking information but instead playing word games to execute an agenda, is NOT really asking, regardless of how they phrase their punctuation marks.  

 

I disagree. You can't cherry pick one definition among many and pigeon hole the word that way.

 

Here's the "full" definition from Merriam-Webster, which clearly supports a great deal more behind what it means to ask a question than the honest intention of humbly learning:

 

Dictionary
ask
 
 
 
verb \ˈask, ˈäsk; dial ˈaks\

: to say or write something to someone as a way of gaining information : to request an answer to a question

: to tell someone in the form of a question that you want to be given something or that you want something to happen : to request something

: to invite (someone) to go somewhere or do something

asked \ˈas(k)t, ˈäs(k)t, ˈask; dial ˈakst\ ask·ing
Full Definition of ASK
transitive verb
1
a :  to call on for an answer <she asked him about his trip>
 
b :  to put a question about <asking her whereabouts>
 
c :  speakutter <ask a question>
2
a :  to make a request of <she asked her teacher for help>
 
b :  to make a request for <she asked help from her teacher>
3
:  to call for :  require <a challenge that will ask much of us>
4
:  to set as a price <asked $3000 for the car>
5
:  invite
intransitive verb
1
:  to seek information
2
:  to make a request <asked for food>
3
:  look —often used in the phrase ask for trouble
— ask·er noun
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