Utah Mormons


JojoBag
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I have said this in other threads recently, I think. But I grew up moving around a lot and lived in mostly military wards and branches. So I know what it is like to have the ward become your surrogate family, and how effortless that becomes when you actually treat people as if they might need you as much as you need them. Our first long-term ward in the states was a real culture shock - very, very clique-ish, very closed off, very judgemental and quite outspokenly so. It didn't help that our family did homeschooling at the time. But that is nothing compared to our experience here in Utah. 

 

I have just lived in two wards here, for two years in one and three in the other. But I have the experiences of my many cousins and college friends to go off of as well. My cousins grew up stateside, in wards very similar to the one I previously mentioned.. fairly average I guess. They have all mentioned the difference they felt during their time in Utah, and all of them expressed a fervent wish to not stay here too long and put down roots. Even my high school peers who were incredibly gung-ho about attending BYU and living in Provo for the rest of their lives got the heck outta' there as soon as they could. The main theme I heard from their facebook and blog posts about life in Utah was complacency.. and worries about becoming complacent themselves. I'm not just making assumptions based on my own admittedly limited experience and observations. 

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My ward's (Idaho) are well about 50%, most times closer to 75%. 

 

Idaho

 

Why, that's practically Utah!

 

As for me - growing up in CA, the only real gripe we had was that some (certainly not all, but more than one) Utahns had a penchant for moving into the ward and immediately start dishing out the "you folks out here in the mission field aren't doing it the way the Brethren intended it to be done".  No biggie--you roll your eyes, talk about what a lousy year our BYU Cougars are having, swap a scone recipe or two; and pretty soon it's all forgotten.

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As for me - growing up in CA, the only real gripe we had was that some (certainly not all, but more than one) Utahns had a penchant for moving into the ward and immediately start dishing out the "you folks out here in the mission field aren't doing it the way the Brethren intended it to be done".  No biggie--you roll your eyes, talk about what a lousy year our BYU Cougars are having, swap a scone recipe or two; and pretty soon it's all forgotten.

 

Okay, confession time. There is one really irritating trait that seems common among Utah Mormons and uncommon outside Utah, and that those moving into our ward from Utah seem very often to bring with them:

 

Letting your kids run around during sacrament meeting!

 

Are you freaking kidding me? DON'T LET YOUR KIDS RUN UP AND DOWN THE AISLES DURING SACRAMENT MEETING! Seriously, how hard is it? Kids belong sat on their bottoms during sacrament meeting, not running the aisles!

 

THIS IS NOT HARD, FOLKS. If the kiddos are being irreverent, take them to the foyer and make them sit facing the corner. In ten minutes, they will be bored to tears (literally) and begging to go back in the chapel where they can read their soft book, play with their quiet toys, or eat Cheerios. Several times of doing this, and the kids will start making it through sacrament meeting with minimal problems.

 

[/utah_Mormon_whine]

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Was the statement "One of reasons" unclear?  Because I thought the implication of "one of" was that there was more then one.

 

As for standing alone... The Lord commands us to gather.  While I don't disagree with the strength that can come from learning to stand alone... The Lord seems to want strength in numbers.  Feel free to take it up with him if you think he is wrong minded about it.

 

"The choice to come unto Christ is not a matter of physical location; it is a matter of individual commitment. ... True, in the early days of the Church, conversion often meant emigration as well. But now the gathering takes place in each nation. ... Spiritual security will always depend upon how one lives, not where one lives."   -- Elder Russell M Nelson

The current guidance is a general rule.  The Lord can, and does, lead individual families to specific locations for His purposes and for their benefit.  I had that in mind when I said "if he led you there, then it's good that you went."  He knows what's best for your family.

 

"Dare to stand alone" -- Thomas S. Monson

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Oh, don't get me started on the whole "mission field" moniker.  GRRRR!!!! You mean to tell me that there are no missions or missionaries in Utah????

 

:)  I hear ya.

 

I wish we could all just be saints together instead of "Utah Mormons" or "Mission Field Mormons".  It's almost as if we are dividing up into '-ites'.  Although that would be a mouthful.  utahmormonites. missionfieldites.

 

This is how we should be (with editorial liberty):

 

4 Nephi 1:17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Utahmormonites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

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"The choice to come unto Christ is not a matter of physical location; it is a matter of individual commitment. ... True, in the early days of the Church, conversion often meant emigration as well. But now the gathering takes place in each nation. ... Spiritual security will always depend upon how one lives, not where one lives."   -- Elder Russell M Nelson

The current guidance is a general rule.  The Lord can, and does, lead individual families to specific locations for His purposes and for their benefit.  I had that in mind when I said "if he led you there, then it's good that you went."  He knows what's best for your family.

 

"Dare to stand alone" -- Thomas S. Monson

 

 

 

And if you equate "standing alone" with being outside of Utah... (Which I think is utter crap) then I have been standing alone 40 years now...  I would like to think I have proven myself... And I would like to "stand with others" now

 

In reality you can "stand alone" in Utah just as much as you can else where (see all the people complaining about that in this very thread) and you can "stand with others" outside of Utah just as much as you can in Utah (again see all the people complaining about how Utah isn't working for them like other wards have)  So to blame "Utah Mormon" as if is the problem is to abdicate your own agency and responsibility and to blame someone (anyone really) for your own failure.

 

The only thing Utah has is "more" Mormons.  That mean you get more 'good' Mormons, you get more 'bad' Mormons, you get more 'spiritual' Mormons, you get more 'worldly' Mormons.  That what happens when you simple get "more"

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Guest MormonGator

 

 

The only thing Utah has is "more" Mormons.  That mean you get more 'good' Mormons, you get more 'bad' Mormons, you get more 'spiritual' Mormons, you get more 'worldly' Mormons.  That what happens when you simple get "more"

 That's a very good point that I didn't think of. 

Edited by MormonGator
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I think "stand alone" refers to holding to your values even when it's unpopular, not seeking out places where you're one of few of your faith. Though I do strongly agree, if your family is led to be somewhere, that's where you should go. 

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I think "stand alone" refers to holding to your values even when it's unpopular, not seeking out places where you're one of few of your faith. Though I do strongly agree, if your family is led to be somewhere, that's where you should go. 

 

I agree I think that is exactly what it means...  I don't think it means you are somehow better off being the only member for miles.  If the later was the case then why would the church have wards... and encourage people to attend?  That would be counter productive, if being on our own was the best way to make us strong in the faith.

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Okay, confession time. There is one really irritating trait that seems common among Utah Mormons and uncommon outside Utah, and that those moving into our ward from Utah seem very often to bring with them:

 

Letting your kids run around during sacrament meeting!

 

Are you freaking kidding me? DON'T LET YOUR KIDS RUN UP AND DOWN THE AISLES DURING SACRAMENT MEETING! Seriously, how hard is it? Kids belong sat on their bottoms during sacrament meeting, not running the aisles!

 

THIS IS NOT HARD, FOLKS. If the kiddos are being irreverent, take them to the foyer and make them sit facing the corner. In ten minutes, they will be bored to tears (literally) and begging to go back in the chapel where they can read their soft book, play with their quiet toys, or eat Cheerios. Several times of doing this, and the kids will start making it through sacrament meeting with minimal problems.

 

[/utah_Mormon_whine]

 

I had to laugh to myself when I read this.  When I visited my son's ward in Kent, WA, I was appalled at my grandchildren's behavior (6 of them).  They were very unruly!  The twins would run around in Sacrament Meeting.  Of course, my son comes from Utah, so maybe that's the reason?  But, my DIL is from Mississippi, so I blame her.  Lol.

 

I've visited quite a few wards in NV, CA, WA, and UT.  I've also been in wards in Germany and South Korea.  I see similarities with the Saints wherever I go.  We all have our strengths and weaknesses.  I'm grateful for the concept of Ward family.  Just like I get along with some of my own siblings better than others, that's the same way I see the Ward family.  I'm closer to some of my Ward family than I am to other members.

 

I have never had a problem with members being unfriendly in any ward I've attended.  I certainly have never taken it personally if I wasn't promptly welcomed.  I know that I myself have not always been the first one to greet newcomers.  It takes me quite awhile to gather up the courage to introduce myself and welcome people.  So, if it takes awhile before people come to talk to me in a new ward, I don't hold it against them.  I'm the same way.  But, I do know that once they get to know me, or me them, a friendship can develop.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

 I was engaged to a black woman before I met LadyG. Someone was called my ex-fiancee the "N word". My fiancee had a beautiful response.

"Who cares?" 

People don't get upset when lies are told about them. They get upset when the truth is. That's why anti-LDS garbage never bothered me in the least.  

 

 

So they can go on in their nativity or arrogance and continue insulting others and never be held accountable or understand that such things are inappropriate, offensive, and wrong?

 

I actually agree with both of you.  I laugh because I often hear Mormons...from everywhere...counsel others to not take offense where none is intended (which is what MormonGator was referring to in his first post.  I laugh at that because I'm usually on a side more like TFP, saying we what people say matters.  So then Mormons who always tell others not to get offended get offended.  I find that amusing.  Sorry...I'm not trying to be offensive here (no pun intended.)  I am being light-hearted however it may seem.

 

The way I can agree with both of you (and Beefche) is I hold myself to a high standard...I try not to say things that can be offensive.  So in the future, I won't say "Utah Mormons".  But at the same time, I try very hard (no, I don't always succeed) not to take offense when it is not intended, or even when it is.  That will still need work, but it's the goal.  

 

That's how I can agree with all of you.  Just call me Tevia (Fiddler on the Roof)  :)  

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How many people did you say hello to? Introduce yourself to?

 

Several.  No matter what I have done, I am still ignored.  I contribute in priesthood and Sunday school, I have expressed appreciation for comments made, but I am still treated like a pariah.  I am ordering 4 tons of wheat and have tried to see if anyone wants to order any.  I have asked twice for a home teaching route, but nothing so far.  The Elder's Quorum president has yet to say a single thing to me unless I have said something to him first.  When I asked for an HT route the second time, he only said, "I'll get to it."  He literally walks past me and my wife in the hallway and says nothing.

 

My last ward was a bit cliquish, but nothing like the clannishness of this ward.  I have not and will not stop trying, but as I said: if I were a non-member or a less active member, I would have walked out and never came back.

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I can't speak for the OP, but I am not concerned with what happens on the first week, or even the first couple of months of being in a new ward. That's an adjustment period for everybody. I'm talking about after having been in the ward for an extended period of time, and after having tried to integrate oneself, asked for opportunities to serve, taken callings if/when they were given, and attended every meeting. After all of this my husband and I are still being greeted with dismissive, holier-than-thou, and sometimes downright snide comments by a great majority of the ward.. often before we ever have the chance to open our mouths. (Just because we had the gaul to show up childless.) In the first ward we lived in in Utah it was almost the same, even though we could still pass for newlyweds back then. Those members kept "reminding" us that we could attend the student ward if we wanted to (no.. that was never an option.)

 

A couple of my older male cousins aren't married yet (early thirties) and are having a very hard time with how they are being treated at church too. Sure, that's something that can happen anywhere, but I'm certain it happens much more often in Utah. Members here can feel more free to share strong opinions, because chances are there are at least a dozen other members within throwing distance to back them up. And there usually are. 

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You said "There are a few other families that have moved in during the past couple years and they, too, are ignored." - just wondering how you know that if you've only recently moved there?  If this is the case - can you reach out to these families, something easy like a playdate for kids or something - then you'll get to know the parents and start to forge relationships in the ward. 

 

 

I know about the other and make it a point to talk to them.  I have also observed the same reactions to certain people that I get.  I've talked to some of them and it is the same problem.  In my last ward in Sydney (Bungarribee), it was very clannish.  About 3/4 of the ward were islanders and they really stick together.  However, they were friendly and would introduce themselves.  Not the ward I'm in.

 

I don't think it's Utah Mormons that are just like this. I think you have just found a town that is different from what you are used to. Don't take this personally, but how could your Dad know that every ward in Utah or "Utah Mormons" are the worst? At best, he knew what, one stake maybe? Are Arizona Mormons better? What about Irish Mormons? I think it is an unfair statement. 

 

I went on my mission to Canada, lived in Germany for 3 years and Australia nearly 4 years.  I have lived in PA, AL, AZ, CA and OR.  In every ward I've been in, I was treated much better than my current ward.  And yes, Arizona Mormons are much better. 

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What is humorous for me is that individuals will tell me, at times who do not know my background, that I am a "Utah Mormon," and I am not even from Utah. I am from California.  What I experienced in California I experience in Utah.

 

However, I am not sure I understand the conflict I am reading.  I agree with MormonGator, and I agree with the opposition.  When ignorance is openly shared sometimes we simply ignore and keep quiet.  This in no way means we believe it to be OK.  When my older son (although a very good kid) tells his sister she is fat.  We tell her to ignore it.  This by no means implies we are OK with such nonsense.  We ask our daughter, "Is it true, if not ignore it."  We teach all our children the same thing.  At times, it is better to ignore ignorance/rudeness rather than augment it.

 

Other times ignoring stereotypes isn't good either, or keeping silent, isn't good either.  I have lived in four wards, in Utah, since my marriage and what I find intriguing is that in every ward I have been in someone will say, "This is the worst ward ever."  In the same ward another will say, "This is the best ward ever."  As for myself, I have never been in an unfriendly ward here in Utah, but then again, I come into the ward and get to know the bishopric, the leaders, and my neighbors.  

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However, I am not sure I understand the conflict I am reading. 

 

It's pretty straightforward. Someone disparaged and insulted my state, my family, my friends, my loved ones and neighbors.Then others determined it was their place to tell me when and where it's acceptable for me to be offended at something. ;) Oh...and I was told that if I didn't want to be stereotyped then all I really needed to do was change and not be the stereotype anymore -- this also applied to my family, friend, and loved ones -- because it's obviously all our fault that a bunch of holier-than-thous from out of state feel it's their place to judge and accuse an entire culture for being just as human and fallible as pretty much everyone else in the world.

 

In other words, this really strikes a nerve with me.

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For posterity in the inevitability that evidence is erased:

 

JojoBagMember Since 08 Jul 2015
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Posted · Hidden September 24, 2015 - moderator review
Hidden September 24, 2015 - moderator review

Utard....ha I'm gonna use that one.

Anyway, mebbe the reception at the new ward was cold because so many people are doped up on anti-depressants or narcotics...

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/640196840/Why-high-antidepressant-use-in-Utah.html?pg=all

 

I saw that in gest, but seriously! wow that is some serious dope use for people who are happy

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Interesting, but not that surprising, how this has devolved from a bit of venting, rightfully, about a sterotype that in at least a few people's experience has been proven to be true.... to a few people who have chosen to react oversensitively themselves, condemning the OP and the original opinion for reeking of oversensitivity and prejudice. And then finally it has been insinuated that the OP might be a liar and might try to hide "evidence" of his dislike of the negative culture in which he now finds himself. 

 

Nothing here has changed my mind. People can be excellent Saints and scholars of the gospel, and yet still be deeply unpleasant people.

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What I find "deeply unpleasant" is people who use what used to be a medical term, to something meant to demean and insult. I've got several friends who have beautiful, wonderful children with Down Syndrome- some rescued from countries who all but threw them away- and I have no tolerance for it. 

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I feel the same about the term "gypped." But it has permeated our vernacular to the point that I cannot hold anything against those who use the term. It may paint the user of the word to be insensitive or uninformed, but it doesn't make them a liar or otherwise undeserving of a listening ear. 

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It does make them at best ignorant, and at worst intentionally cruel. I haven't seen a lot of public awareness passed around about using the word "gypped", but I've seen and heard enough against using "retarded" as an insult that anyone who still uses it is doing so deliberately; therefore cruelty (either by malice or indifference) is the most likely.

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