Utah Mormons


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Another thing: I think that the OP's use of that word reflects a general attitude of disrespect right out of the gate, so that makes it pretty likely that people pick up on his distaste for Utahns. That doesn't exactly motivate invitations to dinner.

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Interesting, but not that surprising, how this has devolved from a bit of venting, rightfully, about a sterotype that in at least a few people's experience has been proven to be true.... to a few people who have chosen to react oversensitively themselves, condemning the OP and the original opinion for reeking of oversensitivity and prejudice. And then finally it has been insinuated that the OP might be a liar and might try to hide "evidence" of his dislike of the negative culture in which he now finds himself. 

 

Nothing here has changed my mind. People can be excellent Saints and scholars of the gospel, and yet still be deeply unpleasant people.

 

 

"Rightfully" stereotyping and judging people?   And denigrating them?

 

Where is that "right" given exactly?  The Bible?  Book of Mormon?  The Constitution?

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Most offensive wards I have lived in: California, Delaware, Arizona.

 

Best ever wards I have lived in: Utah, California

 

Every time someone has used the term Utah Mormon directed at me it has been with mockery and condescension.  Funny, cause those wards all seemed to be using the same ordinances for the sacrament, following the same lesson plans and structures for their meetings and using all the same terms I am familiar with.  Seemed like we were all part of the same church, just some people were __________.

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Ah, yes. Reasonably and humbly declaring a culture as "the worst". That makes it all right then.

?!  For the record, my wife never said ANY such thing. Neither did I. So I'm unclear why you're making such an assertion.

 

...Any reason why you're of the opinion I believe Utah culture is the worst? I certainly believe no such thing. Nor have I said any such thing. I enjoy living in Utah.

Edited by hagoth
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Funny... one of the reasons we decided to move here was so that our kids no longer have to stand alone,,,

I wouldn't dare question what you deem best for your kids. Some of my nephews and at least one of my nieces had some terrible experiences outside of Utah - such that parents and kids alike were relieved to finally move to Utah. (They've moved outside of Utah again, at least for awhile, but are now homeschooling to avoid repeats of the former situations.)

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I can't speak for the OP, but I am not concerned with what happens on the first week, or even the first couple of months of being in a new ward. That's an adjustment period for everybody. I'm talking about after having been in the ward for an extended period of time, and after having tried to integrate oneself, asked for opportunities to serve, taken callings if/when they were given, and attended every meeting. After all of this my husband and I are still being greeted with dismissive...(Just because we had the gall to show up childless.)...

Char,

 

I feel for the pain you and your husband have gone through (and are perhaps still going through). Being childless is an extremely tough challenge, perhaps even more so in a family-centered culture. Many in the church are kind and sensitive to such situations. I'd encourage you to seek them out, and try your best to disregard and forgive the few who aren't. They frankly know not what they're doing.

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I'm reminded of an incident that occurred once when some friends and I were traveling through Arizona on our way to hunt Javelina. We stopped at a small gas station, and a very large, surely gentleman (I assume he noticed our Utah plates) challenged us and said, "you guys *&%$# Mormons?"

One of my friends piped up and said, "Naw, we're just regular Mormons. The kind you're talking about all live in California."   :o

 

I've lived in Utah all my life, and it's always been those "California" Mormons to us. Now all of a sudden I find out there's a problem with Utah Mormons.

Sheesh, who knew?  :D
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The thing about offer personal experience as evidence of "problems" is that is easily and thoroughly countered by those who offer there own personal experience that there is no problem.  Why should I accept your personal experience as more valid then my own?  There is simply no proof that Utah has a greater problems then anywhere else...

 

The only proof we have is that Utah has greater number of Mormon then most anywhere else...  And this can change how things appear. 

 

Lets spin up an example.  Lets say every 100th Mormon that you meet is going to come across as a self righteous jerk (at least in your mind) and 1 out of every 50 wards you will find to be unfriendly.  In some places you could live your whole life and never interact with enough Mormons to trigger that.  And when you do it is such a rare thing as to be an abnormality. 

 

However in Utah you can meet 100's of different Mormon practically every time you cross the street, and 50 wards well that really only a couple of square miles.   The percentage doesn't change but the sheer numbers do... And bad ones that we remember.  So the number of bad apples appear to be greater simply because all the numbers are increased, but we don't really remember all the good ones unless we take the effort.

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I must say, any compassion I might have had for the OP totally flew out the window when I read the location under his name. 

 

Unfortunately, the first time I heard that term was in 1999 while on my mission from a companion from NC. Using that term explains the bias the OP has. 

 

As for the OP, I think the debate here should be "worst ward I have been in" rather than lumping all 4,673 wards Utah together. I mean, ONE ward out of thousands doesn't make it the worst. I would think the tipping point would be once you had been in 2,338 wards that you could make that determination. If I was told over and over again that the Saints of Sydney were down right the worst Mormons to be around and eventually I ended up there, I am sure that would affect the way I see the members. Now if I was told that the Saints were the most brilliant and accepting people on the planet? I am sure my perspective would change given the same situations that I was confronted with. I may not think that they were the best, but I surely wouldn't think they were the worst. 

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One of the ways I judge a ward is by how welcoming they are. Every time I visit a new ward, I keep a special watch on who and how many and when people make an effort to introduce themselves and welcome me. The reception varies from ward to ward; I've had some that were just big huggable teddy bear wards and I've been to others where I felt completely invisible.

 

I think this plays directly into the "Utah Mormon" stereotype, and if we're all honest about it, there really is such a thing as the cliche "Utah Mormon" - but they aren't all in Utah, and not every Mormon in Utah is a "Utah Mormon". Why the moniker still says "Utah" - well, my personal experience suggests that there are more "Utah Mormons" per capita in Utah than elsewhere, but that might be just because there are more Mormons in Utah in general.

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?!  For the record, my wife never said ANY such thing. Neither did I. So I'm unclear why you're making such an assertion.

 

...Any reason why you're of the opinion I believe Utah culture is the worst? I certainly believe no such thing. Nor have I said any such thing. I enjoy living in Utah.

 

Your post is a defense of the OP which said it. I did not say you or your wife said it.

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I judge a ward...

 

Hmm. Maybe this is the problem. Perhaps we ought to stop judging wards and instead consider how we can serve and love them.

 

and if we're all honest about it, there really is such a thing as the cliche "Utah Mormon" 

 

No.

 

but they aren't all in Utah, and not every Mormon in Utah is a "Utah Mormon". Why the moniker still says "Utah" - well, my personal experience suggests that there are more "Utah Mormons" per capita in Utah than elsewhere, but that might be just because there are more Mormons in Utah in general.

 

Which characteristics to you use to qualify someone as a Utah Mormon then?

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One of the ways I judge a ward is by how welcoming they are. Every time I visit a new ward, I keep a special watch on who and how many and when people make an effort to introduce themselves and welcome me. The reception varies from ward to ward; I've had some that were just big huggable teddy bear wards and I've been to others where I felt completely invisible.

Hmm. Maybe this is the problem. Perhaps we ought to stop judging wards and instead consider how we can serve and love them.

and if we're all honest about it, there really is such a thing as the cliche "Utah Mormon"

 

No.

 

I think this plays directly into the "Utah Mormon" stereotype, and if we're all honest about it, there really is such a thing as the cliche "Utah Mormon" - but they aren't all in Utah, and not every Mormon in Utah is a "Utah Mormon". Why the moniker still says "Utah" - well, my personal experience suggests that there are more "Utah Mormons" per capita in Utah than elsewhere, but that might be just because there are more Mormons in Utah in general.

 

Which characteristics to you use to qualify someone as a Utah Mormon then?

 

I'm really thinking that for the health and wellbeing of everyone on these forums, you and I might consider refraining from responding to each other's posts....

 

1. In order to consider how one might serve a ward, one must first make a judgment about that ward and its needs. Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

2. Your denial does not negate the veracity of my claim. In fact, it reinforces it.

 

3. Too often non-Mormons here in Utah have been offended and alienated by some of our members who will not allow their children to be friends with children of other faiths.

 

"Utah Mormon" is a derogatory term used to describe an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who is snobbish, cliquish, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, or any number of other sins of holy vanity. While it's almost certain that the term developed because these traits were especially common among members of the church living in Utah, not all members of the church living in Utah exhibit these traits nor are these traits exclusive to members of the church living in Utah.

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I'm really thinking that for the health and wellbeing of everyone on these forums, you and I might consider refraining from responding to each other's posts....

 

I don't much care if you respond to anything I say. But I'll say what I like, when I like, as long as it conforms to the site rules, and if you don't like it...too bad.

 

 

Sounds like a good excuse to hold onto a holier than thou attitude as we all consider what's wrong with everyone else.

 

2. Your denial does not negate the veracity of my claim. In fact, it reinforces it.

 

It's easy to just say stuff isn't it? It even makes it seem like it might be authoritative when linked to a scripture. Of course everyone with any level of reason at all can tell that the scripture you've linked is a meaningless non-sequitur, and that you have absolutely nothing to back up your claim that if we're "honest" there actually is such a thing and such-n-such bias baloney is justified.

 

 

Even if this is true, it doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand? Some black people have robbed places too. Does that mean it's okay to call robbing a "black" thing to do?

 

Ridiculous!

 

And that's not even addressing the loose scare tactic logic that doesn't even bother to address the various reasons why one might not let their kids play with what may well be rotten little lying, pot-smoking, foul-mouthed, porn-viewing terror neighbor kids.

 

"Utah Mormon" is a derogatory term used to describe an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who is snobbish, cliquish, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, or any number of other sins of holy vanity.

 

Hmm. That seems to sum up, pretty much, those who use the term "Utah Mormon" to describe others in a snobbish, cliquish, holier-than-thou, hypocritical way.

 

While it's almost certain that the term developed because these traits were especially common among members of the church living in Utah

 

Actually, it's almost certain that the development of the term speaks a whole lot more about those who developed and use the term than it does anything about those being so accused.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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"Utah Mormon" is a derogatory term used to describe an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who is snobbish, cliquish, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, or any number of other sins of holy vanity. While it's almost certain that the term developed because these traits were especially common among members of the church living in Utah, not all members of the church living in Utah exhibit these traits nor are these traits exclusive to members of the church living in Utah.

 

 

Funny how the people who are most likely to use this term in this way are in the very same breath saying... "Don't judge me." "Accept me as I am."  The hypocrisy of "Don't you dare judge me, but I will judge you all I want" is astounding.

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Being a Mormon in Utah can be to your advantage.  If you want to spend more time with your family and not so much time in church callings - you can move to an established ward in Utah and serve happy as just a teacher or in the nursery or somewhere that so many think of as lessor non presiding calling.

 

As a young father living outside of Utah there was occasion that I would go weeks without seeing my children awake.  Then moving to Utah - mine and my wife's prayers were answered - I could serve - even with only 4 or 5 (instead of 12 or 16) families to home teach.  Plus I can walk to church for years without wearing out my shoes.

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Funny how the people who are most likely to use this term in this way are in the very same breath saying... "Don't judge me." "Accept me as I am."  The hypocrisy of "Don't you dare judge me, but I will judge you all I want" is astounding.

 

So no one is ever to use labeling terms of any kind, ever? So I am a hypocrite if I tell a visiting friend to my ward, "don't worry about what so-and-so might say or do while we're at church, he's always been unkind to me." Because by using the term Utah Mormon, it is simply a way of collecting all of the terms like cold, insensitive, haughty, self-centered, harshly critical, etc. under one easy umbrella term that most people may not like, but they do recognize what it means. I have the ability to recognize when someone is this way because I am not. I grew up in congregations that were incredibly welcoming and full of both good and kind people who loved unconditionally. But I'm supposed to keep that ability to judge and self-preserve completely to myself.. or better yet, never even have the thought. They can go on being jerks, because gosh darnit, they sure are righteous jerks. 

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So no one is ever to use labeling terms of any kind, ever? So I am a hypocrite if I tell a visiting friend to my ward, "don't worry about what so-and-so might say or do while we're at church, he's always been unkind to me." Because by using the term Utah Mormon, it is simply a way of collecting all of the terms like cold, insensitive, haughty, self-centered, harshly critical, etc. under one easy umbrella term that most people may not like, but they do recognize what it means. I have the ability to recognize when someone is this way because I am not. I grew up in congregations that were incredibly welcoming and full of both good and kind people who loved unconditionally. But I'm supposed to keep that ability to judge and self-preserve completely to myself.. or better yet, never even have the thought. They can go on being jerks, because gosh darnit, they sure are righteous jerks. 

 

Sure you can label all you want... if you wish.  However it is only fair to let other "do unto you... what you have done unto them."  

 

You can also demand to be treated like a "child of god" while you go around judging and labeling people and doing exactly what you complain that others are doing to you... But if you do you really should not be surprised if some people label you "Hypocrite"

Edited by estradling75
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The difference between the desirable and undesirable LDS person, whether in Utah or not, is that one group has faults that could very well be labeled, but they are not faults that go on the offensive against their fellow Saints. They are faults that the person struggles with privately and if they do hurt or disadvantage others it is almost always inadvertent, and out of something not done rather than done. Ommission rather than commission. A "Utah Mormon" as I see it is one who does not have the tact or sensitivity to sometimes keep their great wisdom and righteousness to themselves. These are they who harshly verbally attack and rebuke others about the way they think or feel, believing all the while that they are only instructing or sharing their testimony. 

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