Utah Mormons


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Of course everyone with any level of reason at all can tell that the scripture you've linked is a meaningless non-sequitur

It was not a non-sequitur. It was an ad-hominem. You're a Utah Mormon. Thanks so much for that long-winded demonstration of what a Utah Mormon looks like. The guilty taketh the truth to be hard.

 

Ridiculous!

You're ranunculus.

 

Funny how the people who are most likely to use this term in this way are in the very same breath saying... "Don't judge me." "Accept me as I am."  The hypocrisy of "Don't you dare judge me, but I will judge you all I want" is astounding.

Did you not see my references to Corinthians? I'm all for judging. Judging is good. In fact, judging is absolutely necessary to our salvation and exaltation. So by all means, judge the heck out of me. Just be warned that with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

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The difference between the desirable and undesirable LDS person, whether in Utah or not, is that one group has faults that could very well be labeled, but they are not faults that go on the offensive against their fellow Saints. They are faults that the person struggles with privately and if they do hurt or disadvantage others it is almost always inadvertent, and out of something not done rather than done. Ommission rather than commission. A "Utah Mormon" as I see it is one who does not have the tact or sensitivity to sometimes keep their great wisdom and righteousness to themselves. These are they who harshly verbally attack and rebuke others about the way they think or feel, believing all the while that they are only instructing or sharing their testimony. 

 

Yet... You personally went on the offensive the moment you joined this thread and condemned all Mormons who live in Utah (including the GAs of the Church) because you don't like how things turned out for you.  That was a" harsh verbal attack and rebuke others about the way they think or feel, believing all the while that you are only instructing or sharing you testimony." to use your own words.

 

  How is what you have done any less offensive then what you accuse other as having done to you?

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Uhhh.. for the same reason why acting in self-defense is permissable by law. The "Utah Mormon" individual made themselves apparent by first doing or saying something hurtful. A person who recognizes that and wants to avoid similar situations in the future will pass judgement, and then distance themselves from the hurtful person. If they have children or other loved ones they will do their best to shield them from the hurtful person too. Its a punishment that fits the crime. After all, this type of person clearly doesn't want friends - at least not friends that are different from themselves - so they are unlikely to care or notice that you never act particularly chummy toward them from then on. Unless you dare to assign them a name, of course. Because as others have so aptly pointed out, the guilty take the truth to be hard.

Edited by char713
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I think it's impossible to be invisible when visiting another ward.

IF, you do what I do.  Stand by the door before SM, smile, extend your hand to shake hands, say goodmorning, and say who you are (by name) and where you are visiting from.

I was never shunned in such a situation.

In my ward, everyone has a good, positive view of Utah Mormons, either from the past, or from hearing me talk in such pleasant and positive terms about how wonderful Utah is (which includes the Mormons there).

dc

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Yet... You personally went on the offensive the moment you joined this thread and condemned all Mormons who live in Utah (including the GAs of the Church) because you don't like how things turned out for you.  That was a" harsh verbal attack and rebuke others about the way they think or feel, believing all the while that you are only instructing or sharing you testimony." to use your own words.

 

  How is what you have done any less offensive then what you accuse other as having done to you?

 

I just re-read this post, and then reviewed my posts. I'm not sure whose comments you are mistaking for mine, but I never went on the offensive. I have talked about my own experiences, and described specifically what I believe the term to mean. In this way I have not over-generalized, and certainly never said a thing that might have been so sweeping as to include the General Authorities.

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Uhhh.. for the same reason why acting in self-defense is permissable by law. The "Utah Mormon" individual made themselves apparent by first doing or saying something hurtful. A person who recognizes that and wants to avoid similar situations in the future will pass judgement, and then distance themselves from the hurtful person. If they have children or other loved ones they will do their best to shield them from the hurtful person too. Its a punishment that fits the crime. After all, this type of person clearly doesn't want friends - at least not friends that are different from themselves - so they are unlikely to care or notice that you never act particularly chummy toward them from then on. Unless you dare to assign them a name, of course. Because as others have so aptly pointed out, the guilty take the truth to be hard.

 

First of all you were not "defending" yourself from Utah Mormons when you joined this thread.  You saw a chance to strike back and took.  Chances are the "Utah Mormons" you've been hurt by in the real aren't even on this thread. And in your attack (not defense) you didn't care how many others, who hadn't done a thing to you personally, you hurt in the process. 

 

That is not in any way permissible by law.  Nor by the gospel.  You are being the very same kind of hurtful, mean, person who cloaks they pain they cause under the words of "truth" and "righteousness"  that you came on here to condemn.

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I just re-read this post, and then reviewed my posts. I'm not sure whose comments you are mistaking for mine, but I never went on the offensive. I have talked about my own experiences, and described specifically what I believe the term to mean. In this way I have not over-generalized, and certainly never said a thing that might have been so sweeping as to include the General Authorities.

 

You came on here and have repeated defended your right to call Utah Mormons to repentance.  You justified your actions  because of your personal experience and the experiences friends and family.  Which by definition can only cover a small fraction of the total number.

 

You continue to do so, in spite of the fact that you have been repeatedly told such statements are hurtful.  I am sorry you have a bad experiences, but your bad experience does not justify hurting other by attacking and degrading other Mormons (including the GAs) who just so happen to live in Utah.  Which you do every time you generalize about "Utah Mormons"

Edited by estradling75
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Calling a mean person a mean person is hurtful? I think this means I am officially done with this forum. There are a select few that in their online anonymity here have said some of the most insensitive, brusque, disparaging, and frankly snide things I have ever heard members express to each other. Not always to me necessarily, but to an awful lot of visitors to this site, very few of whom might have ever deserved it. There is no safe place here for the expression of doubt, confusion, hurt feelings, or anything that is not perfectly tolerant of whatever criticism those select few forum members see fit to dole out. 

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Calling a mean person a mean person is hurtful? I think this means I am officially done with this forum. There are a select few that in their online anonymity here have said some of the most insensitive, brusque, disparaging, and frankly snide things I have ever heard members express to each other. Not always to me necessarily, but to an awful lot of visitors to this site, very few of whom might have ever deserved it. There is no safe place here for the expression of doubt, confusion, hurt feelings, or anything that is not perfectly tolerant of whatever criticism those select few forum members see fit to dole out. 

 

Does a "mean" person have feelings? Is a "Mean" person a child of God?  Yeah they do(and are), so that means they can be hurt

 

But that is besides the point (which you keep missing).  In your attempt "Hurt" the "mean" people... You are hurting a lot of others as well, people that did nothing to you. Instead of recognizing that you are engaging in the same flawed hurtful behavior you deplore in others;  you are doing the exact same kind of rationalization and justification that they deserve it somehow.

Edited by estradling75
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I'm not attempting to hurt the mean people here, or in real life either. I was attempting to vent about them and maybe have a discussion about why this particular anomaly exists... at least as far as our experience tells us. I see that you would have me (and others like me) keep our mouths shut whenever our feelings have been hurt, and never tell the offender what hurt they caused, because then their feelings might be hurt too. Because they are more worthy to hurt than we, or at least they much more eloquent in expressing it. 

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Calling a mean person a mean person is hurtful? I think this means I am officially done with this forum. There are a select few that in their online anonymity here have said some of the most insensitive, brusque, disparaging, and frankly snide things I have ever heard members express to each other. Not always to me necessarily, but to an awful lot of visitors to this site, very few of whom might have ever deserved it. There is no safe place here for the expression of doubt, confusion, hurt feelings, or anything that is not perfectly tolerant of whatever criticism those select few forum members see fit to dole out. 

 

 

Does a "mean" person have feelings? Is a "Mean" person a child of God?  Yeah they do(and are), so that means they can be hurt

 

But that is besides the point (which you keep missing).  In your attempt "Hurt" the "mean" people... You are hurting a lot of others as well, people that did nothing to you. Instead of recognizing that you are engaging in the same flawed hurtful behavior you deplore in others;  you are doing the exact same kind of rationalization and justification that they deserve it somehow.

 

You two are worse than me and TFP.

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I'm not attempting to hurt the mean people here, or in real life either. I was attempting to vent about them and maybe have a discussion about why this particular anomaly exists... at least as far as our experience tells us. I see that you would have me (and others like me) keep our mouths shut whenever our feelings have been hurt, and never tell the offender what hurt they caused, because then their feelings might be hurt too. Because they are more worthy to hurt than we, or at least they much more eloquent in expressing it. 

 

except you are not discussing it...  you are regurgitating your feelings and experiences as if that is the end of the discussion.  You haven't picked up any of the ideas on why you might have experienced this, and until you understand why you can't fix (you might not even be able to fix it even then)

Edited by estradling75
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I'm not attempting to hurt the mean people here, or in real life either. I was attempting to vent about them and maybe have a discussion about why this particular anomaly exists... at least as far as our experience tells us. I see that you would have me (and others like me) keep our mouths shut whenever our feelings have been hurt, and never tell the offender what hurt they caused, because then their feelings might be hurt too. Because they are more worthy to hurt than we, or at least they much more eloquent in expressing it. 

 

 

Fact: Mormons exist who are rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc. etc. etc. Let's call them "Superficial Mormons".

Fact: ALL Mormons are rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc. etc. etc. AKA Superficial Mormons at some point.

Fact: Nobody's perfect. Except Jesus, and I'm pretty sure He isn't commenting on this thread personally. He's probably got better things to do.

 

Now maybe a lot of us who don't live in Utah feel that there are a disproportionate number of "Superficial Mormons" in Utah, hence the term "Utah Mormon". Personally, I think that's most likely a sample bias (in spite of my numerous sardonic rants about "Utah Mormons" among my friends).

 

In short, it exists because people are imperfect. Mormons are imperfect at being Mormon, even in Utah. Mormons visiting Utah are imperfect at judging Mormons in Utah.

Even the worst, most superficial hypocritical Mormon I've ever met still had their spiritual strengths. So if you're going to judge a Utah Mormon for being superficial, don't forget to also judge them for all that they get right.

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Fact: Mormons exist who are rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc. etc. etc. Let's call them "Superficial Mormons".

Fact: ALL Mormons are rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc. etc. etc. AKA Superficial Mormons at some point.

Fact: Nobody's perfect. Except Jesus, and I'm pretty sure He isn't commenting on this thread personally. He's probably got better things to do.

 

Now maybe a lot of us who don't live in Utah feel that there are a disproportionate number of "Superficial Mormons" in Utah, hence the term "Utah Mormon". Personally, I think that's most likely a sample bias (in spite of my numerous sardonic rants about "Utah Mormons" among my friends).

 

In short, it exists because people are imperfect. Mormons are imperfect at being Mormon, even in Utah. Mormons visiting Utah are imperfect at judging Mormons in Utah.

Even the worst, most superficial hypocritical Mormon I've ever met still had their spiritual strengths. So if you're going to judge a Utah Mormon for being superficial, don't forget to also judge them for all that they get right.

 

 

Another post where we agree.

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Fact: Mormons exist who are rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc. etc. etc. Let's call them "Superficial Mormons".

Fact: ALL Mormons are rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc. etc. etc. AKA Superficial Mormons at some point.

Fact: Nobody's perfect. Except Jesus, and I'm pretty sure He isn't commenting on this thread personally. He's probably got better things to do.

 

Now maybe a lot of us who don't live in Utah feel that there are a disproportionate number of "Superficial Mormons" in Utah, hence the term "Utah Mormon". Personally, I think that's most likely a sample bias (in spite of my numerous sardonic rants about "Utah Mormons" among my friends).

 

In short, it exists because people are imperfect. Mormons are imperfect at being Mormon, even in Utah. Mormons visiting Utah are imperfect at judging Mormons in Utah.

Even the worst, most superficial hypocritical Mormon I've ever met still had their spiritual strengths. So if you're going to judge a Utah Mormon for being superficial, don't forget to also judge them for all that they get right.

 

 

And this would be an example of trying to have a discussion on the matter.

 

I also think it is very likely to be a example of sampling bias.   If that is the case then to the answer to problem  we have to ask "how do we make members "better.""  So that in their flawed moments they are less "rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc"  I am afraid that both the church and the Lord have been working on that question for a very long time.

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And this would be an example of trying to have a discussion on the matter.

 

I also think it is very likely to be a example of sampling bias.   If that is the case then to the answer to problem  we have to ask "how do we make members "better.""  So that in their flawed moments they are less "rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc"  I am afraid that both the church and the Lord have been working on that question for a very long time.

 

And the church and the Lord have both taught us how. We make ourselves better. 

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So no one is ever to use labeling terms of any kind, ever? So I am a hypocrite if I tell a visiting friend to my ward, "don't worry about what so-and-so might say or do while we're at church, he's always been unkind to me." Because by using the term Utah Mormon, it is simply a way of collecting all of the terms like cold, insensitive, haughty, self-centered, harshly critical, etc. under one easy umbrella term that most people may not like, but they do recognize what it means. I have the ability to recognize when someone is this way because I am not. I grew up in congregations that were incredibly welcoming and full of both good and kind people who loved unconditionally. But I'm supposed to keep that ability to judge and self-preserve completely to myself.. or better yet, never even have the thought. They can go on being jerks, because gosh darnit, they sure are righteous jerks. 

 

So according to you "cold, insensitive, haughty, self-centered, harshly critical" are traits of "Utah Mormons".

 

From that description then, you wouldn't have any problem with someone identifying you as a "Utah Mormon" for displaying those very same qualities here, right?  How ironic.

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Leah, you are the one user I have ever come across on this forum whose every post I have read has been brusque at best. I may complain about others (non forum-users) but it is not because they are less educated in the church than I, or because I dislike some part of their lifestyle or whatever, it is because they have been directly and purposefully hurtful toward myself or those I care about. Apart from a very few occassions where I met someone with the same level of antagonism with which they addressed me, I have never made comments that were cold or harshly critical, etc. I have never put anyone here down or met someone's request for advice with condescension, or attempted to deny that their experiences could not have been possible simply because my own were different. If I don't have something positive or sympathetic to say, I keep quiet. With the exception of threads like this one that are set up in order to vent and commiserate. But even here, I have been nothing more than defensive and a little angry - but again, not toward anyone here... well, until my comments this evening.

Edited by char713
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Leah, you are the one user I have ever come across on this forum whose every post I have read has been brusque at best. I may complain about others (non forum-users) but it is not because they are less educated in the church than I, or because I dislike some part of their lifestyle or whatever, it is because they have been directly and purposefully hurtful toward myself or those I care about. Apart from a very few occassions where I met someone with the same level of antagonism with which they addressed me, I have never made comments that were cold or harshly critical, etc. I have never put anyone here down or met someone's request for advice with condescension, or attempted to deny that their experiences could have been possible simply because my own were different. If I don't have something positive or sypathetic to say, I keep quiet. With the exception of threads like this one that are set up in order to vent and commiserate. But even here I have been nothing more than defensive and a little angry - but again, not toward anyone here until my comments this evening.

 

regurgitation and attack...   Not a discussion

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regurgitation and attack...   Not a discussion

 

What do you want me to say? What would you consider discussion? Oh, yeah I'm totally a harshly critical, self-centered, cold and haughty person? I totally put people down on here all the time, I love to show off my superior gospel knowledge, I go looking for a fight in every thread, and don't bother to carefully read people's posts before I respond? Nope, not gonna happen. That's the opposite of how I operate here and in all my other online discussions. 

 

But you want me to do better. So.. here goes. Some people are jerks, some of those jerks are LDS. In my experience, there are a lot of LDS jerks in wards in Utah. Why might this be? Is it that I'm only imagining this because I am overly sensitive? Not likely, I spent my high school and college years in a ward that was pretty good at ridiculing those who didn't meet their standards. Got my thick skin years ago. But it's worse in Utah, at least in my experience and the experience of most of my former high school peers, and all of my many cousins who attended college in Utah and began to put down roots here. And nevermind me.. how about the experiences of enough other people that the term was ever able to have about and to be so widely understood? I don't think the burden of proof is on me here. A few of you have a real problem with the term and have taken our use of it quite personally. If that's because you feel equally repulsed by all over-generalizations then okay, more power to you I guess. If its because you live in Utah and love it, then good for you, you're one of the lucky ones. I haven't met any of the users here in person but I'm quite certain from the past several months of participation and lurking on this forum that at least a couple of you are the exact definition of the term you so despise. Maybe not in real life, but then that hardly makes it better does it? If you're allowing all of your sanctimonious frustration to come out online against other strangers because its a safe, anonymous place to do so? So you try to refute the experience, the frustration and sometimes hurt, by saying that it is all imagined or blown way out of proportion. Or that it is borne of oversensitivity, bigotry, or best of all, hypocrisy. See why it's so hard to have a discussion? No ones feelings or experience can count for anything unless they are approved of by Their Eminences. Otherwise the thread will be drowned in criticism and rebukes.. oh and their hurt feelings. The only feelings that apparently need no justification or explanation around here. 

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