Utah Mormons


JojoBag
 Share

Recommended Posts

What do you want me to say? What would you consider discussion? Oh, yeah I'm totally a harshly critical, self-centered, cold and haughty person? I totally put people down on here all the time, I love to show off my superior gospel knowledge, I go looking for a fight in every thread, and don't bother to carefully read people's posts before I respond? Nope, not gonna happen. That's the opposite of how I operate here and in all my other online discussions. 

 

But you want me to do better. So.. here goes. Some people are jerks, some of those jerks are LDS. In my experience, there are a lot of LDS jerks in wards in Utah. Why might this be? Is it that I'm only imagining this because I am overly sensitive? Not likely, I spent my high school and college years in a ward that was pretty good at ridiculing those who didn't meet their standards. Got my thick skin years ago. But it's worse in Utah, at least in my experience and the experience of most of my former high school peers, and all of my many cousins who attended college in Utah and began to put down roots here. And nevermind me.. how about the experiences of enough other people that the term was ever able to have about and to be so widely understood? I don't think the burden of proof is on me here. A few of you have a real problem with the term and have taken our use of it quite personally. If that's because you feel equally repulsed by all over-generalizations then okay, more power to you I guess. If its because you live in Utah and love it, then good for you, you're one of the lucky ones. I haven't met any of the users here in person but I'm quite certain from the past several months of participation and lurking on this forum that at least a couple of you are the exact definition of the term you so despise. Maybe not in real life, but then that hardly makes it better does it? If you're allowing all of your sanctimonious frustration to come out online against other strangers because its a safe, anonymous place to do so? So you try to refute the experience, the frustration and sometimes hurt, by saying that it is all imagined or blown way out of proportion. Or that it is borne of oversensitivity, bigotry, or best of all, hypocrisy. See why it's so hard to have a discussion? No ones feelings or experience can count for anything unless they are approved of by Their Eminences. Otherwise the thread will be drowned in criticism and rebukes.. oh and their hurt feelings. The only feelings that apparently need no justification or explanation around here. 

 

If you have read the thread you would know that I have spent that 40 years not being a Utah Mormon.  That only within the last 3 months have I been living in Utah.  So while I haven't had the experience of living and growing up in Utah i have had the experience of "hearing" about Utah Mormons a good portion of my life.

 

And guess what inspite of the attempts to re-define what "Utah Mormon" means to being a particular class of sinner, very few people are going to know that definition, and even fewer are going to agree to it.  Most people who hear the term are going to take it a face value to mean "All Mormons who live in Utah"  No matter how much you might wish and mean it otherwise you do not get to control how they understand your criticism. You are attacking every Mormon in Utah with those claims

 

As for you having a tough life with people that treated you poorly.  Well, welcome to the human race.  People treat people poorly.  I challenge you to find anyone here who has not been treated poorly as some point in time... some times for prolonged periods of time.   This happens everywhere inside and outside of Utah.

 

However the accusation of Utah Mormon and your own statements says it is worse in Utah... That my dear Char713 is what you claim, and the burden of proving that lies with you (and the others who join you in the cause) to prove that it is worst.  As for your proof that Utah is worst you offered your personal experience.  While your personal experience is meaningful to you, as evidence it has to be considered with personal experience of others and while some have agreed with you many other have reported just the opposite.

 

If your personal experience is proof then how to you explain the personal experiences that is the opposite of your and just a prevalent?

 

Simple facts are you have no proof that Utah is worse. All you have is an opinion.  While you have the right to your opinion, you have also made it quite clear that that, in your opinion, people should not forcibly proclaim their opinions if they know (or suspect) it might hurt someone else.  Yet that is exactly what you are doing.

Edited by estradling75
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you want me to say? What would you consider discussion? Oh, yeah I'm totally a harshly critical, self-centered, cold and haughty person? I totally put people down on here all the time, I love to show off my superior gospel knowledge, I go looking for a fight in every thread, and don't bother to carefully read people's posts before I respond? Nope, not gonna happen. That's the opposite of how I operate here and in all my other online discussions. 

 

But you want me to do better. So.. here goes. Some people are jerks, some of those jerks are LDS. In my experience, there are a lot of LDS jerks in wards in Utah. Why might this be? Is it that I'm only imagining this because I am overly sensitive? Not likely, I spent my high school and college years in a ward that was pretty good at ridiculing those who didn't meet their standards. Got my thick skin years ago. But it's worse in Utah, at least in my experience and the experience of most of my former high school peers, and all of my many cousins who attended college in Utah and began to put down roots here. And nevermind me.. how about the experiences of enough other people that the term was ever able to have about and to be so widely understood? I don't think the burden of proof is on me here. A few of you have a real problem with the term and have taken our use of it quite personally. If that's because you feel equally repulsed by all over-generalizations then okay, more power to you I guess. If its because you live in Utah and love it, then good for you, you're one of the lucky ones. I haven't met any of the users here in person but I'm quite certain from the past several months of participation and lurking on this forum that at least a couple of you are the exact definition of the term you so despise. Maybe not in real life, but then that hardly makes it better does it? If you're allowing all of your sanctimonious frustration to come out online against other strangers because its a safe, anonymous place to do so? So you try to refute the experience, the frustration and sometimes hurt, by saying that it is all imagined or blown way out of proportion. Or that it is borne of oversensitivity, bigotry, or best of all, hypocrisy. See why it's so hard to have a discussion? No ones feelings or experience can count for anything unless they are approved of by Their Eminences. Otherwise the thread will be drowned in criticism and rebukes.. oh and their hurt feelings. The only feelings that apparently need no justification or explanation around here. 

 

You're reading an awful lot into things because of your bias. I can't speak for others, but as for myself, I have no hurt feelings over the matter whatsoever, nor do I debate based on my personal emotion, nor do I consider it proper to do so. I do not have my feelings hurt by the term Utah Mormon. But it is a false characterization, a mean-spirited thing to accuse others of, and un-Christlike in every degree. And I feel perfectly justified in pointing this out, because the accusation is incorrect and unfair from a principled point of view in every way.

 

If you have a valid point, make it. But if you are simply complaining about things you find hurtful, then yes, the burden of proof is absolutely on you, particularly if you're going to condemn an entire culture over that accusation.

 

Everyone says things that hurt others sometimes. You are just as guilty as any. You justify it because of your hurt feelings. That's the real difference as I see it. Justify it by principles of truth and you'll have a leg to stand on. Your hurt feelings do not justify anything.

 

The principle of truth here is plain. It is wrong to accuse an entire culture of something. It is wrong to judge an entire culture of something. And even if there is some truth to prejudice, that does not justify prejudice.

 

I've tried to put this into obvious examples several times and it gets ignored. But you and those claiming unkind things about "Utah Mormons" are like the person who got robbed by black people a few times and therefore now feel justified in calling all black people horrible things. Even if statistically black people robbed more this would be inappropriate, and this should be SO BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to any cultured, educated, civil person in today's world. It is not okay to do that sort of thing even if there is some sort of truth to it, and a statistical truth never justifies blanket prejudice against the whole.

 

Being oversensitive really only becomes a major problem when it starts leading to a justification of wrong behaviors such as inactivity and unkindness.

 

It should also be restated (though it shouldn't need to be) that when someone insults Utah Mormons they are insulting our friends, family, peers, neighbors, loved ones, church leaders, etc. This isn't about the wicked taking the truth to be hard. I could care less if you think I'm sanctimonious. I know what I stand for and why I stand for it. I stand to defend the church and the gospel. If I am out of bounds at times (which we all are), then for that I must improve and learn and grow, but it does not make that for which I stand wrong. If others consider me sanctimonious for standing for what I stand, then so be it. But it has nothing to do with my defense against the cruel accusation that Utah Mormons are the worst. That is a simple and plain defense of family and friends and has nothing to do with me whatsoever. It rings about as true as saying white people are the worst, Christians are the worst, Mormons are the worst, Jews are the worst, black people are the worst, Chinese people are the worst, Filipinos are the worst (that was just for anatess ;)), or any other of the horrible, ignorant prejudices out there.

 

I said it in my first post. I'll say it again.

 

Shame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your post is a defense of the OP which said it. I did not say you or your wife said it.

Um. No actually.

 

I am not defending the phrase. Make an offender for a pair of words if you wish, but that is not at all where I stand. I am instead defending and addressing the underlying concern of feeling ostracized in a new ward.

 

What I said was that the OP expressed a valid concern. (I've rarely come across a concern that wasn't valid.) And what I then added was equally important - a viable solution.

 

 

My initial response to the OP was: "Jojo, while I understand your valid concern, Eowyn has a very important point...."

(emphasis added for clarification)

 

Eowyn's relevant and helpful point was: "How many people did you say hello to? Introduce yourself to?"

 

Is that somehow more clear?

 

Or, you can remain defensive if that is the preferred stance for some reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Um. No actually.

 

I am not defending the phrase. Make an offender for a pair of words if you wish, but that is not at all where I stand. I am instead defending and addressing the underlying concern of feeling ostracized in a new ward.

 

What I said was that the OP expressed a valid concern. (I've rarely come across a concern that wasn't valid.) And what I then added was equally important - a viable solution.

 

 

My initial response to the OP was: "Jojo, while I understand your valid concern, Eowyn has a very important point...."

(emphasis added for clarification)

 

Eowyn's relevant and helpful point was: "How many people did you say hello to? Introduce yourself to?"

 

Is that somehow more clear?

 

Or, you can remain defensive if that is the preferred stance for some reason.

 

Yes, that does help make it more clear. And I am not defensive just for the sake of being defensive. I merely explained why I responded like I did. My perception was that you were defending the OP. That is not defensive. If I misread you then I have no particular interest in doggedly forcing the point to win some point or the like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LiterateParakeet

However, I am not sure I understand the conflict I am reading.  I agree with MormonGator, and I agree with the opposition.  

 

 

Ha ha, so you are Tevia also.  

Is it possible that someone reading this has not seen the play, Fiddler on the Roof?  For that person (there can't be more than one) I will explain.  

 

Two men are having a disagreement, and Tevia, the main character says to one, "You are right."

 

The second offers a rebuttal, and Tevia says to him, "You are right."

 

A third man then questions Tevia, "But they can't both be right, they have opposing opinions."  

Tevia says, "You are also right."

 

Tevia was wise.  :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So no one is ever to use labeling terms of any kind, ever? So I am a hypocrite if I tell a visiting friend to my ward, "don't worry about what so-and-so might say or do while we're at church, he's always been unkind to me." Because by using the term Utah Mormon, it is simply a way of collecting all of the terms like cold, insensitive, haughty, self-centered, harshly critical, etc. under one easy umbrella term that most people may not like, but they do recognize what it means. I have the ability to recognize when someone is this way because I am not. I grew up in congregations that were incredibly welcoming and full of both good and kind people who loved unconditionally. But I'm supposed to keep that ability to judge and self-preserve completely to myself.. or better yet, never even have the thought. They can go on being jerks, because gosh darnit, they sure are righteous jerks. 

 

Over twenty years ago when I first learned the term "Utah Mormon" at BYU I took it to mean what you describe; not necessarily people who are from UT.  I quickly decided that since "Utah Mormons" are not exclusive to UT and not everybody from UT is a "Utah Mormon" I needed a better term.  I ended up using "Mormon".  In my mind the term "Mormon" was derogatory, as opposed to a "Saint" or "Christian" which meant members of the Church trying to live their religion.

 

A short while later I realized I didn't like using "Mormon" as a derogatory term, and none of that was beneficial anyway.  I shouldn't try to classify people as either "Mormon" or "Saint".  That doesn't help me see the best in people.  We all have weaknesses and I need to look for the good.  I have since learned this is charity, which "is kind" and "thinketh no evil".  I shouldn't think the worst.  And it helps me to not classify individuals or even groups in to anything that my mind might perceive as derogatory (e.g. "Utah Mormon", "white trash", etc. ).

 

I do acknowledge that real pain and hurt can come from some people.  They can be hard to deal with.  And it's OK to recognize bad behavior.  But, remember to not let some people's behavior unfairly affect how we feel about others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just last week, I was talking to an exceptionally difficult person I know, who had rented her house to another exceptionally difficult person I know. This person was going on and on about what a terrible tenant the other had been, which was only a little true. The other has told me what a terrible landlord this person is, which I believe to also be a little true. They are both right. They are both wrong. They are both exceptionally difficult. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As to the OP and the theoretical discussion of what to do about it, there is only one answer. It is your job to change things to the best of your ability (just as it is all our jobs). But the way you do that is by changing yourself and being what you should be.

 

Ask yourself. What have you done? Here's some possible suggestions:

 

Start making cookies and deliver them to everyone in the ward, particularly the ones you find most unfriendly.

Find opportunities to serve them. Seriously. Literally get out there and find people to help.

Go to every move in/out and help.

Go out of your way at every meeting to sit down next to someone and chat with them a bit. Get to know them. Find out about their work, their family, their interests, etc.

Start inviting people to dinner, one at a time.

Go to every activity

Go to every service project.

Never fail in your home/visiting teaching.

Bear your testimony in fast and testimony meetings.

Purposefully comment a few times every lesson in Sunday School and Priesthood/Relief Society

Smile at everyone.

Say hello in the hallways even if they don't look at you or respond. Don't give up even if they continue to not respond.

Volunteer for every assignment you can.

Etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another post where we agree.

That's what I tried to say in my first post on this thread - but rewording apparently helps communication.

 

And this would be an example of trying to have a discussion on the matter.

 

I also think it is very likely to be a example of sampling bias.   If that is the case then to the answer to problem  we have to ask "how do we make members "better.""  So that in their flawed moments they are less "rude, inconsiderate, judgmental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical, etc"  I am afraid that both the church and the Lord have been working on that question for a very long time.

 

And the church and the Lord have both taught us how. We make ourselves better. 

I think we're on a roll!

 

Over twenty years ago when I first learned the term "Utah Mormon" at BYU I took it to mean what you describe; not necessarily people who are from UT.  I quickly decided that since "Utah Mormons" are not exclusive to UT and not everybody from UT is a "Utah Mormon" I needed a better term.  I ended up using "Mormon".  In my mind the term "Mormon" was derogatory, as opposed to a "Saint" or "Christian" which meant members of the Church trying to live their religion.

 

A short while later I realized I didn't like using "Mormon" as a derogatory term, and none of that was beneficial anyway.  I shouldn't try to classify people as either "Mormon" or "Saint".  That doesn't help me see the best in people.  We all have weaknesses and I need to look for the good.  I have since learned this is charity, which "is kind" and "thinketh no evil".  I shouldn't think the worst.  And it helps me to not classify individuals or even groups in to anything that my mind might perceive as derogatory (e.g. "Utah Mormon", "white trash", etc. ).

 

I do acknowledge that real pain and hurt can come from some people.  They can be hard to deal with.  And it's OK to recognize bad behavior.  But, remember to not let some people's behavior unfairly affect how we feel about others.

THIS is how we "solve" the "problem" of "Utah Mormons".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going to bash Hoosier Mormons.  I going to do this because I grew up in Indiana and the ward there was horrible.  I was treated badly by most the other kids, I learned to hate the scouting program while I lived there so I guess I can hate BSA Mormons too.

 

Hate you beefche ;) . 

 

 

I have lived and regularly attended church in Indiana, Utah, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland and California.  In every one of those wards I met and dealt with people just like some on this are calling "Utah Mormons."  Some people are just crappy.  Some people also seem to have an inferiority complex for being church members and not living in Utah.  Darned if I know why, because I've found Mormons to be pretty much the same everywhere I go.  Most are good, some not so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's a open secret in every non-Utah ward to PLAYFULLY make fun of Utah Mormons.

 

All the Utah Mormons I've met chuckle at it, because they know it's all in good fun. 

Whenever we get a new person from Utah in my ward, I always say something like "Where is this Utah? Why do you Mormons flock there?" 

So far, everyones been cool with it. 

 

All the families from Utah I've met have been truly remarkable. 

 

Outwardly they're chuckling, but inwardly they're thinking "What a jerk. Here I am thousands of miles away from home in a strange place, and some clown is harassing me about it." They're really hoping you'll be more welcoming next time they see you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many people in my area have moved to Utah. Lived there raised families. No one has ever moved back here.

 

Which reinforces the point I was making...  Personal experience isn't good enough evidence, because it can be (and often is) countered by other personal experience in the opposite direction.

 

 

So lets break this down.  Some one has a bad experience with a Mormon.  This totally sucks, but I also think that everyone here can sympathize, having had their own bad experiences.

 

Some people might have quiet a few bad experiences with Mormons.  Again this totally sucks, but  I still think that everyone here can sympathize with it.

 

And of course it is very likely that a person might find that their worse experience (either in number or intensity or both) is with in a certain geographical boundaries.  This is not surprising or unexpected... Such events have to happen somewhere.  Nor is it surprising when these geographical boundaries overlap areas with larger concentrations of Mormons in the population.  Simply because a larger number means more interactions.  More interactions means greater chance of such interactions going wrong.

 

All this is understandable and can be sympathized with.

 

Where the break is... is when someone whom has had bad personal experiences with Mormons in a certain geographical area... Declares that all Mormons with that geographical area are inherently "worse."  This is what the term Utah Mormon (and others like it) does.  Such slander is simply wrong, it is unChrist-like.  And while someone's personal trauma, might make such claims understandable.  It does not make it acceptable. 

Edited by estradling75
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Outwardly they're chuckling, but inwardly they're thinking "What a jerk. ..."

Are you trying to reinforce the "Utah Mormon" label?  :)

 

Hopefully, we won't inwardly think of someone as "jerk" and "clown".  Christ taught a higher and better way to live.  "But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (3 Ne 12:22)  "But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you" (3 Ne 12:44)   That doesn't come naturally.  But, through the atonement of Christ our nature can change. (Mosiah 3:19)

 

The outward/inward thing reminds me of "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness." (Matt 23:27)

 

Interesting to know that the Lord has called out groups of people in a way that they have become negative connotations, such as scribes, pharisees, and also lawyers.  To be clear, I'm not saying I should start using "Utah Mormon" to call people to repentance.  I don't have authority to do so, nor do I think it would be effective.  I'm just pointing out an observation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hopefully, we won't inwardly think of someone as "jerk" and "clown".  Christ taught a higher and better way to live. 

 

Well this is flawed. Christ didn't teach us to never think anyone was a jerk. He taught us to forgive and love them even if they are jerks. Being aware that someone is a jerk is not un-Christlike. Being Christian doesn't mean walking around with blinders on. It means loving people in spite of their imperfections.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well this is flawed. Christ didn't teach us to never think anyone was a jerk. He taught us to forgive and love them even if they are jerks. Being aware that someone is a jerk is not un-Christlike. Being Christian doesn't mean walking around with blinders on. It means loving people in spite of their imperfections.

 

Good point.

 

But, if we think someone's a jerk for saying "Where is this Utah? Why do you Mormons flock there?" (language John Doe responded to from MormonGator), that seems a little harsh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator

Outwardly they're chuckling, but inwardly they're thinking "What a jerk. Here I am thousands of miles away from home in a strange place, and some clown is harassing me about it." They're really hoping you'll be more welcoming next time they see you.

 I'm usually among the first one shaking hands with them and welcoming them to the ward, right after I offer them my help in moving-and I have, several times. I love getting to know my fellow brothers and sisters, no matter where they are from. 

 If they are inside thinking "what a jerk" for playfully ribbing them after offering to help move and get settled, that shows bad on them. Not me. Heck my freshmen year of college had hazing much worse and no one took it personal. Even better, two of my closest real life friends in the church are both Utah Mormons, and they bust my chops too. Should I run to the bishop and tattle? Should I have wept in the corner talking about how mean they were? Of course not, it's all in good fun. They are 100%, dyed in the wool "Utah Mormons" and they have wonderful senses of humor. We all believe in the Book of Mormon fully, wear our endowment clothing and the like. 

 

Yes, I freely admit there is a line not to cross. If I point and laugh at "Utah Mormons" and say "You are all a bunch of idiots!" Yes, that's rude, obnoxious and crossing the line. But if I say something like "Oh, a Mormon from Utah? Haven't seen that before!"  or "Utah? What is the Utah place? " and someone throws their hands up, runs around crying and gets offended from a really light "joke" like that, they have problems-or worse, they might have a chip on their shoulder and look for reasons to be offended.  

 

As a convert, I find myself defending my faith all the time. It's fine, I'm no genius but I enjoy apologetics. Many times I get non members saying things to me like "Oh you guys are great but sometimes my LDS neighbors are really uptight!" I am so uncomfortable when otherwise wonderful LDS feed into that stereotype. Luckily 99% of the "Utah Mormons" have been truly wonderful and able to take some light jokes without thinking I am a "jerk" 

Edited by MormonGator
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a young man preparing for a mission - I thought I was going to go to Germany.  I already loved and idolized German society and culture - my number one hero was Dr. Werner von Braun.  I spoke German and I thought myself a perfect candidate to bring the Pure Gospel of Christ to  the German people.  But I was called to the North Western States Mission.  I had transfers on my mission that farther than coming home.  What a disappointment to all my preparations - I had memorized all the discussions and all 270+ missionary scriptures before being called.  My first area was in the far off reaches of Idaho.  The truth is that rural places are just not that intellectually sophisticated - I was prepared for much better.

 

What made matters worse was my first companion - He was tall (big) and clumsy.  He was a native American that was blind in one eye and wore an eye patch.  He was about to end his mission and his mission and it had not been that good of an experience for him.  He was not well educated and did not even know a single missionary discussion - and I doubt he could find more than 3 scriptures.  He was a real piece of work and not the best example of a missionary.  Or so it seem at first to me.  I was so disappointed and discouraged - I honestly thought my mission was ruined at the start.

 

What I am typing now is bringing tears to my eyes - He was perhaps my greatest companion.  He changed my thinking, my life and the very essence of my missions purpose.  He had been misunderstood by everyone in the mission - He was despised by other missionaries and treated with great disrespect.   He had one positive - he loved simple people and he loved Jesus.  He turned out to be one of my most trusted friends - a person I have turned to for advice in so many things.  Not because he knows so much more but because he lives so much more and has been through so much more and is full of love that makes no sense at all.

 

Sometimes the greatest callings are to serve those that others despise and think to be jerks.  Sometimes we learn the most from folks the most unlike us - just because they are different.  Perhaps if you are living in a crappy ward full of jerks - maybe, just maybe - you should consider a change of heart and thank G-d for the opportunity to serve those others find difficult.  The blessing is that you will end up loved despite all your difficulties.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Coming late to this thread.  Rather than weigh in, I'll just suggest a movie:

 

Baptists at our Barbeque  Go rent it somewhere - it's like reading 9 pages of this thread, except it's funny, heartwarming, and has Baptists in it.

 

Main character was born in SLC, went on his mission to Ogden, and graduated from BYU.  Spent his whole life in that 100-mi stretch.  Then he moves to a small town in Arizona comprising 262 Mormons, 262 Baptists, and 2 undecideds.  They make him Elder's quorum president of his small branch.  

 

If you enjoy the production values of a movie, this is standard sub-par LDS cinema.  But if you want to get at the heart of cultural divisiveness and find ways to become more Christlike regarding this issue, then you have to go see this movie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share