What is the point of sealings?


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Why do we say "families can be together forever" when that's contingent on ending up in the same kingdom? And if we ARE in the same kingdom, why do I have to be sealed?

 

Could I not visit Mother Teresa, Joan of Arc, or any other historical figures, just as I could visit my own family?

Is there some barrier between you and those you aren't sealed to?

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Think of it this way. We are all on the same planet... But only one of these people on the planet is your spouse. There's a marked difference in one's relationship and responsibilities with one's spouse compared to everyone else on the planet. The same concept applies to the Celestial Kingdom.

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Why do we say "families can be together forever" when that's contingent on ending up in the same kingdom? And if we ARE in the same kingdom, why do I have to be sealed?

 

Could I not visit Mother Teresa, Joan of Arc, or any other historical figures, just as I could visit my own family?

Is there some barrier between you and those you aren't sealed to?

 I hear you Syme. I've sometimes wondered what's to stop an unsealed family in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom from living happily ever after for eternity with each other. Will God withhold the blessings of being together as a family for eternity for unsealed families in places other than the celestial kingdom? Clearly, the blessings of eternal increase will not be available to those not in the celestial kingdom, but there are other blessings of being in a family, and its hard to see, on the face of it, why those not in the celestial kingdom should not continue to receive those blessings as they have in this life.   

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Why do we say "families can be together forever" when that's contingent on ending up in the same kingdom? 

We say they "can" because it is possible.  "Can" implies contingency.
 

And if we ARE in the same kingdom, why do I have to be sealed?

 

It seems this question boils down to "why have ordinances?"  In short, ordinances help us remember who we are and remember our duty to God.  They are for our benefit.  They are such an effective method of teaching us that God has set them as a requirement to receive certain blessings.  The more I study ordinances and their purposes, the more I see the wisdom.

 

Could I not visit Mother Teresa, Joan of Arc, or any other historical figures, just as I could visit my own family?

Is there some barrier between you and those you aren't sealed to?

I don't see any reason not to be able to visit others.  Maybe what you are trying to ask is whether there's a difference in the relationship of a child sealed to parents and other people.  I don't know the exact relationship, but I see it as similar to a healthy adult child to parent relationship here.  Your relationship is not exclusive. You still have close friendships with other people.  "And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy." (D&C 130:2)

It's important to add that the blessings of being sealed aren't limited to the afterlife.  There are amazing blessings to be received in this life too.

 

 I hear you Syme. I've sometimes wondered what's to stop an unsealed family in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom from living happily ever after for eternity with each other. Will God withhold the blessings of being together as a family for eternity for unsealed families in places other than the celestial kingdom? Clearly, the blessings of eternal increase will not be available to those not in the celestial kingdom, but there are other blessings of being in a family, and its hard to see, on the face of it, why those not in the celestial kingdom should not continue to receive those blessings as they have in this life.   

The telestial glory is a degree of glory.  It "surpasses all understanding" (D&C 76:89)  However, the "happily ever after" for a telestial being will pale in comparison to a celestial being.  Don't sell yourself short.  And again, not all of the blessings of the gospel are reserved for the afterlife.

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Try explaining this one to your children when their father is not a member of the church.

 

I have.  It's not hard in my experience.  No, it's not their dad that is not a member but my dad.  My newly turned 12-year-old kid is looking forward to the next temple trip when he can baptize my dad.  He's excited that he can be a part of the steps to get my dad on the path to sealing.

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Why do we say "families can be together forever" when that's contingent on ending up in the same kingdom? And if we ARE in the same kingdom, why do I have to be sealed?

 

Could I not visit Mother Teresa, Joan of Arc, or any other historical figures, just as I could visit my own family?

Is there some barrier between you and those you aren't sealed to?

Because a family is much more than a group of friends. Perhaps in the next life we will be able to associate freely with others. That doesn't make them family.

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So I had dinner with the missionaries a couple months ago and they asked me the same question, more or less. Why do we need to be sealed?

 

After thinking about it, and then saying a little prayer, the answer I got was "because we are all one". Now, this might get a little mystical and buddhist for some people, but getting sealed (and most Priesthood ordinances, for that matter) involves a lot more than making a note on a piece of paper that X happened. There is energy and spirit in motion. Real physical (spiritual) bonds are formed (Joseph Smith called it welding). The impression I got was that we are all like the Avatar in The Last Airbender - unique individuals, but tied to our ancestors and our descendants in a way that makes us literally "one".

 

I probably didn't explain that very well, not sure that it's something that can really be explained. Probably why I got it via metaphor.

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My own personal thoughts and revelation on this subject is similar to what others have already said.

 

I believe that when we pass on and go to the other side our loved ones will be waiting with open arms to receive, mentor, watch over, guide, comfort and protect us. The true gospel ordinances we receive here on earth as well as our personal righteousness all play a part in the freedom and/or flexibilty to do things on the other side. For example it is understood by the LDS church that persons in the celestial kingdom can visit the lower kingdoms but persons in the lower kingdoms cant visit the higher kingdoms. Even within the same kingdoms there are limitations as to what someone can and cant do (IMHO).

 

About 9 years ago I had a dream a week after my grandfather passed away. I was sitting in a big stadium like room along with hundreds of other people whom I got the impression were all related to my grandfather. My grandfather was the only one walking from table to table visiting with the people. I was anxious and waiting for him to come to my table, when he came to me I saw his face and heard his voice as he gave me this advice..."you know what to do!"

 

I have no doupt that my grandfather left this earth as celestial kingdom material and through the power of the priesthood has the ability to do what he was doing in my dream...reaching out to guide his posterity. It was obvious in my dream that the people sitting at the tables were limited. I believe that this vision would not have happened had it not been induced by the power of the priesthood that my grandfather is able to use.

 

 

...and its funny how my perspective fits perfectly with the "ask gramps" article posted vy just-a-guy, here is an exerpt from that article

 

. . . parents who honor temple covenants are in a position to exert great spiritual influence over time on their children. Faithful members of the Church can find comfort in knowing that they can lay claim to the promises of divine guidance and power, through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost and the privileges of the priesthood, in their efforts to help family members receive the blessings of salvation and exaltation.

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I find all these explanations insufficient.

 

The only answer that really makes sense is that we don't know, so trust God despite our mortal inabilities to comprehend.

 

 

FP, please dont put us all in the same basket by saying "we dont know", you can say "you dont know" and leave it at that.

 

I have never shared my experience with any of my family members as it is a personal experience to me, for me and only me. The reason I share anonymously on a forum is because you guys dont know me and cant judge/ridicule me face to face and I hope that by sharing my experiences can help others, no one has to believe me, but atleast know that there are believers like me out here in this world.

 

Like I shared in my vision, my grandfather said "you know what to do", and what he was inferring (based on the look on his face and how I grew up living right next door to him) was that by me being born and raised in the LDS church where the fullness of the gospel exists, the blueprint is layed out right in front of me. I may not know all the details of Gods Mysteries but I do know what I must do while I am here on earth.

 

So going back to the OP's question...why do I have to be sealed?

 

..I do know!

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FP, please dont put us all in the same basket by saying "we dont know", you can say "you dont know" and leave it at that.

 

My opinion differs a bit. I think "we don't know" is perfectly appropriate. "We" is understood to mean "the Church", and if a reason has not been publicly revealed, then indeed *we* don't know. *You* may know through personal revelation, but that's private, for you, not to be shared, and does not constitute *us* knowing. Even if you tell the rest of us.

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Vort, why is personal revelation not to be shared? There are heavenly truths in every country, in every religion and in every person. Just because our church does not make an official statement does not mean a truth does not exist nor does nobody have information on it.

 

 

 

Information, and technology used to spread that information is key to the speedy advancement and growth of Gods one and only true church. It is also changing the way we communicate, learn and interact. Transparency is becoming more normal.

 

As much as the critics can come on the internet and spread massive mis-information about our church, Im sure we can counter act and spread the true gospel and our own personal truths as we have experienced it. In fact didnt Elder Uchtdorf proclaim the following...

 

“With the blessings of modern technology, we can express gratitude and joy about God’s great plan for His children in a way that can be heard . . . around the world. Sometimes a single phrase of testimony can set events in motion that affect someone’s life for eternity.” — President Dieter F. Uchtdorf (Ensign, May 2011)

 

I have certainly grown my testimony 2 fold in just one year by reading here in these forums, not because of an on-slaught of mormons saying "I KNOW IT IS TRUE!" ...followed by silence because the official stance is "we dont know" - but because of yalls personal experiences and opinions.

Edited by priesthoodpower
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FP, please dont put us all in the same basket by saying "we dont know", you can say "you dont know" and leave it at that.

 

I have never shared my experience with any of my family members as it is a personal experience to me, for me and only me. The reason I share anonymously on a forum is because you guys dont know me and cant judge/ridicule me face to face and I hope that by sharing my experiences can help others, no one has to believe me, but atleast know that there are believers like me out here in this world.

 

Like I shared in my vision, my grandfather said "you know what to do", and what he was inferring (based on the look on his face and how I grew up living right next door to him) was that by me being born and raised in the LDS church where the fullness of the gospel exists, the blueprint is layed out right in front of me. I may not know all the details of Gods Mysteries but I do know what I must do while I am here on earth.

 

So going back to the OP's question...why do I have to be sealed?

 

..I do know!

 

First off, as Vort said, "we" means the church by revelation. And "we" don't know. I believe, very strongly, that some know. Joseph Smith, for example, saw these things explicitly in vision. I expect he knew and understood exactly what the point of sealing was. But he did not explain it in terms we can understand in any record we have.

 

Your explanation and your dream do not give any support to why we "need" to be sealed. It talks quite sentimentally about your family ties. But it gives nothing to the logical points required to understand from a mortal perspective why being sealed is required.

 

So if you "know" why, then explain it.

 

Moreover, the whole "Families can be Together Forever" is a nice sentiment, and it's useful from a sentimental point of view. But what does it actually mean in the eternities? Even in this life I have moved on from my childhood family and am no longer "together" with them. Sure, I still see them and interact with them. But we no longer live together. And so it will be with my children (if I ever have any). The only one I expect to literally be together forever with is my wife. And from that perspective, the husband/wife sealing makes sense. It seems necessary related to the perpetuation of eternal seed, which is the core characteristic of eternal progression and exaltation. But how does being sealed to my father matter? Moreover, what about to my children?

 

Oh...wait? I haven't been able to have any. So no sealing there. So how does that work? Everyone else who's been blessed to have children gets to be sealed to their mortal children, grandchildren, etc., but those who didn't have the opportunity in this life to either be married or have children through no fault of their own are out of luck?

 

Well of course not. We know there will be no blessings withheld from the faithful. So I expect that somehow (law of adoption or something) that it'll work out. But wait...what about the last children ever born? They can't have children sealed to them. There's none left!

 

So how does it work? Really? And why? Why is mortal parent-to-child sealing important to the eternities? We know it is important. But can you really explain to me why from a point of view that actually makes logical sense? If you can because you "know" because it's been revealed to you and you're comfortable sharing this knowledge, then please do so.

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Vort, why is personal revelation not to be shared?

 

Let me be more specific. Personal revelation that confirms doctrines taught openly by the prophets can and should be shared. As a general rule, private revelations about subjects that have not been explained by the prophets of the Church are meant for you alone. You need to keep your mouth shut about them. If God wants them revealed to the world, he will tell his prophets to declare them. Unless you are called to be the prophet to the world -- which we will know, because you will be an apostle -- you are not authorized to share your private revelations of new doctrine with the world.

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Having said that, I see no problem with sharing ideas and interpretations. I think that speculation can easily be taken too far, and that it requires good sense and perhaps spiritual intuition to avoid taking speculation to the extremes, which should always be avoided. But talking about the doctrine and your interpretations of it, or your ideas about it, seems reasonable.

 

For example, I see nothing wrong with someone saying, "I believe the sealing ordinance is important because _______." I don't even see anything wrong with saying, "Here's an experience I had: ______________. This makes me think the sealing ordinance is important because ___________." In contrast, I think it would be extremely inappropriate to say, "I had a revelation about the sealing which is not generally known in the Church, and based on that revelation, here is what I now know about the importance of the sealing: _____________"

 

Hope that clarifies my meaning.

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Why do we say "families can be together forever" when that's contingent on ending up in the same kingdom? And if we ARE in the same kingdom, why do I have to be sealed?

 

Could I not visit Mother Teresa, Joan of Arc, or any other historical figures, just as I could visit my own family?

Is there some barrier between you and those you aren't sealed to?

 

 

Speaking my personal speculations on this--

 

To me, it seems our final estate has less to down with our physical address and more to do with the state of our hearts.  After all, the purpose of the Plan of Happiness is to transform men to become most complete God-like Goodness andHhappiness that each individual will allow.  The only thing that stands in each person's way to standing next to God is their own love of wickedness.  

 

People in the lower kingdom will not be together in families.  This is not because they never had a sealing ordinance performed (because everyone will), but because they refused to allow that sealing transform them: they did not embrace the heavenly power and honor the covenants made.  They hence void their sealing ordinance.  

 

For example, a rage-filled husband habitually beats his wife, and loves his anger more than God and His covenants.  God cannot force this man to surrender his temper and honor his covenants, so the covenant is dissolved, and the couple will no longer be together (abuse does not happen in heaven).  Such a person will still have the best life they will allow God to give, but an eternal spouse will not be a part of it.

 

Being together as a family, having your hearts intimately tied together, requires a level of Christ-like love and perfection we don't really understand in this life.  If a person loves themselves more than God or their fellow man, then naturally they will not be a part of a union which puts collective love first.  

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Why do we say "families can be together forever" when that's contingent on ending up in the same kingdom? And if we ARE in the same kingdom, why do I have to be sealed?

It's funny that we use such a simple phrase as "families can be together forever" to point to such a deep doctrine. I think we do this in part because other Christian religions preach the dissolution of the family after death and so we want to make a distinction. But in truth the doctrine is much more vast and needs much more explanation. 

 

In fact, in this short post I cannot explain it all. Moreover, if I did I bet some would cry foul. So let me just allude to deeper truths and you can discover more for yourself.

 

The doctrine of eternal families is inseparable from the doctrine of eternal progression. But the problem is that few, even within the church, understand how progression works after the resurrection. How can we appreciate the doctrine of eternal families if we do not understand progression? But, let me just point out one obvious fact. No faithful mother and father would consider it sufficient to be sealed and simply be able to visit a wicked son.  

 

Combined with this, I believe few understand how to obtain their sealing. We have simplified truths to the point of incomprehension. At some point we must grow up and understand more. As Paul said, "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1 Cor 13:11).

 

 Here then is a quote from Joseph Smith on the subject. It discribes the sealing using different words we often do not hear. Further, he explains that children are secured such that they cannot be lost. 

Four destroying angels holding power over the four quarters of the earth until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads, which signifies sealing the blessings upon their heads, meaning the everlasting covenant, thereby making their calling and election sure. When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother. (History of the Church 5:530)

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First off, as Vort said, "we" means the church by revelation. And "we" don't know. I believe, very strongly, that some know. Joseph Smith, for example, saw these things explicitly in vision. I expect he knew and understood exactly what the point of sealing was. But he did not explain it in terms we can understand in any record we have.

 

Your explanation and your dream do not give any support to why we "need" to be sealed. It talks quite sentimentally about your family ties. But it gives nothing to the logical points required to understand from a mortal perspective why being sealed is required.

 

 

You contradict yourself by saying that "we" as a church by revelation "dont know", yet you go on to say that Joseph Smith who by revelation may have known, and the possibility that individual members like myself whom by personal revelation may also know. So let me fix your original post for you...

 

 

I find all these explanations insufficient.

 

The only answer that really makes sense is that we I don't know, so I trust God despite our MY mortal inabilities to comprehend.

 <insert> Our church has no official statement or doctrine on the matter.

 Ask me if God exists and I wont logically be able to convince someone that there is a God. Yet I know he exists.

 

The original question "why do I have to be sealed?"

simple: because it binds us as family in heaven the same way we are blood bound to our familys here on earth (D&C 128:8).

 

imho

 

On earth, if a married couple were to die in a car accident, a written will would determine which child or relative would inherent the family assets. No will? the assets go to the state.

 

On earth, when little jimmy gets out of school he is comforted in knowing that he has a home, a bedroom, a bicycle, a loving mother and father that he can return to.

 

In Heaven I would imagine the same, we will continue to gain in knowledge and gain kingdoms upon kingdoms that will allow sealed familys to share and pass on to each other and not simply exist just to talk to each other.

 

My dream of my grand father proved to me, and me only, that the sealing that connects me to him allowed a sort of special treatment (if you will) of my grand father visiting me and giving me crucial advice about my eternal salvation. What a blessing it is to me that a relative love and care for me so much that he want to guide me. All possible because of the "required" sealing power of the priesthood that has loosened the bands of heaven to allow me that vision.

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Let me be more specific. Personal revelation that confirms doctrines taught openly by the prophets can and should be shared. As a general rule, private revelations about subjects that have not been explained by the prophets of the Church are meant for you alone. You need to keep your mouth shut about them. If God wants them revealed to the world, he will tell his prophets to declare them. Unless you are called to be the prophet to the world -- which we will know, because you will be an apostle -- you are not authorized to share your private revelations of new doctrine with the world.

 

 

curious, is this the churchs stance or your own opinion?

 

I understand that the Lord does nothing except through his prophets.

I also understand that a non-apostle revealing new doctrine publicly could make that person look like a wacko.

 

but wouldnt the fruits of that new doctrine still add to the greater good of the church? and not oppose or go against it, so there is no harm.

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curious, is this the churchs stance or your own opinion?

 

I understand that the Lord does nothing except through his prophets.

I also understand that a non-apostle revealing new doctrine publicly could make that person look like a wacko.

 

but wouldnt the fruits of that new doctrine still add to the greater good of the church? and not oppose or go against it, so there is no harm.

 

You miss some very critical points.  Here is one of them.  The Lord teaches line upon line.  If we get a revelation  its because the Lord has prepped you to get it.

 

So if you get some new insight by revelation is because in the Lord's judgement you were ready for it.  If we then take it upon ourselves to share it we are replacing the Lord's judgement with our own.  This is a big problem.

 

Even if we judge the revelation to "harmless" that is still putting our judgement ahead of the Lord, because the Lord himself has not seen fit to do so.

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You contradict yourself by saying that "we" as a church by revelation "dont know", yet you go on to say that Joseph Smith who by revelation may have known, and the possibility that individual members like myself whom by personal revelation may also know. So let me fix your original post for you...

 

I don't think you have a clear understanding of what a contradiction actually is. Since Vort and I both explained this and you still don't seem to get it, I have to assume that you either can't (not sure why -- you seem fairly bright) or won't (likely because you're defensive and have a chip on your shoulder about the matter) understand.

 

 Ask me if God exists and I wont logically be able to convince someone that there is a God. Yet I know he exists.

 

Missing the point. I know God exists. If you want me to explain the details of how a being like God happens to exist, how the eternities actually flow, where He actually resides (beyond a generic "heaven" or "close to Kolob", etc., then I can't. I, too, know that sealings are important. That doesn't mean I understand the details of why.

 

simple: because it binds us as family in heaven the same way we are blood bound to our familys here on earth (D&C 128:8).

 

That explains what it does. It doesn't even begin to explain why it does.

 

On earth, if a married couple were to die in a car accident, a written will would determine which child or relative would inherent the family assets. No will? the assets go to the state.

 

And yet, we do not inherit anything thing in the eternities from our mortal parents. We inherit all from our Heavenly Father.

 

On earth, when little jimmy gets out of school he is comforted in knowing that he has a home, a bedroom, a bicycle, a loving mother and father that he can return to.

 

And yet, when I get done with my job for the day, I don't go home to my loving mother and father, the bedroom I have I provide for myself. Is your perspective that we, as exalted beings, are more like children who need to be taken care of, or even greater than independent adults, you know -- actual gods with all authority, power, and knowledge. How does having a bicycle and a bedroom provided by someone else relate to that? Beyond that, if we did have something analogous provided for us, it would be by our Heavenly Father, not our mortal one.

 

In Heaven I would imagine the same, we will continue to gain in knowledge and gain kingdoms upon kingdoms that will allow sealed familys to share and pass on to each other and not simply exist just to talk to each other.

 

Even if this is accurate (which it strikes me that this is problematic in a variety of way...but I won't go there now for the sake of simplicity), once again, why would we need to be sealed for this? What would stop us from sharing said knowledge. Why is sealing in mortality required to allow it?

 

My dream of my grand father proved to me, and me only, that the sealing that connects me to him allowed a sort of special treatment (if you will) of my grand father visiting me and giving me crucial advice about my eternal salvation. What a blessing it is to me that a relative love and care for me so much that he want to guide me. 

 

Once again, what about those who don't have parent/child sealings in this life? Are they left out? Even if they are sealed after this life, they never had the "special" relationship with that person in mortality. But more to the point, even if, once again, we accepted this as correct (sealing allows for special treatment) it still doesn't answer the why or the how of it in any regard.

 

I can accept that you have had some experiences, spiritually speaking, that have helped you to know that sealings are important and have helped to build your testimony of it. But I'm surely not seeing anything that leads me to think you have some new understanding of the logic behind the why and how of it all.

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