a scenario

[askandanswer]

Consider the following scenario:

 

A young man completes an honourable mission. A year or two later he is married in the temple. Some time later, after having served as an Elders Quorum President, he is called as a bishop. A short time after being released as bishop he is called as a Stake President. Shortly after retiring from work, he and his wife go on a mission. Not long after they finish their mission, they become temple workers. Finally, he is called to his last calling, as stake Patriarach. One day, while he and his wife are preparing to go to a mission reunion, she turns to him and says “do I look good in this dress”? She doesn’t but as he has said a thousand times throughout their marriage, he says she looks beautiful. On the way to the reunion, he is killed in a car crash.

 

Consider the following scriptures:

 (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:34)

34  Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

 (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 82:7)

7  And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:31)

31  For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

(Old Testament | Ezekiel 18:24)

4 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?  All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

 

Having stated an untruth to his wife shortly before he died, something that he has done repeatedly throughout his life, and not having repented of it, what will be the fate of this humble, obedient servant of God in the next life? Was it a sin to tell his wife something that he knew was not true in the hope that she would believe it? Did he lie? Will God overlook it? Can he repent in the next life of things done here? Is it the case, as D&C 82 suggests that that by repeating an action that may be sinful that he has done repeatedly throughout his life, that his formers sin shall return, and as Ezekiel suggests, will all his righteousness not be mentioned? What will happen to this man?

[David13]

We had a discussion about this, or similar in gospel principles earlier this year.

I think the best response was a lady who said she would tell you if you didn't look good.  That she would describe herself as a friend and give an honest opinion, not lie and give phony flattery.

And describe that is what friendship is for.

In marriage, I don't know if that will work.  It should.

As to the eternal question:  I don't know.

dc

[Guest]

A righteous man probably always sees the beauty in his wife, no matter what she's wearing. Especially after spending such a life together. 

[David13]

You have, I think a good point there, Eowyn.

But there were times with my wife when I preferred this dress or that dress or that outfit etc.

So yes, any man will see the beauty, that was a part of his interest in the first place, but there is the question what looks better, or what looks good.

And then the issue of honesty.

What if the question is not with the wife, then.  With a friend or co-worker?  And you want to accomodate them, rather than try to offer an honest opinion?  Is that dishonesty?  What is the result?

dc

Edited October 4, 2015 by David13

[Guest MormonGator]

A righteous man probably always sees the beauty in his wife, no matter what she's wearing. Especially after spending such a life together. 

 THIS. 

 

It's your job as a husband to remind your wife how beautiful she is. Period. Any "man" who dares speak otherwise about his wife loses his man card.  

Edited October 4, 2015 by MormonGator

[Leah]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  Speculating on a wildly hypothetical situation when the only answer to the question of anyone's fate in the next world is up to Heavenly Father.

[Guest]

I don't understand so much time some spend on speculating over things of no consequence (or reality). There are so many useful things, pursuits of saving knowledge, and good causes we should be anxiously engaged in. 

[BeccaKirstyn]

More importantly, God sees the desires and intents of our hearts. In this "sin" as you define, his intent was to show love and compassion for his wife. One of the important roles he has to his eternal companion. 

[spamlds]

The question involves some fallacious thinking.  It seems to suggest that the righteousness of the man in question was reflected by his serving in various Church callings.  It focuses on works and does not include grace in the least.  Many latter-day saints are mistaken in this kind of thinking.

 

The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that we are saved by grace.  

 

"And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king" (Alma 22:14, italics added).

 

None of us deserve to be saved.  Nothing we do merits it.  Whether like the man in the "scenario" we lie or we don't, none of us do anything that can merit salvation.  We are saved by the atonement of Christ.  If we exercise faith and repentance, Christ is merciful and saves us despite our errors and mistakes.  Nobody will be error-free when we leave this life.  

 

We keep the commandments because we love God, not because we earn his love or forgiveness by doing so.  We practice living a celestial law on this earth so we may be able to enjoy the blessings of heaven here while we are in mortality.  We will be pleasantly surprised when we see who Father has forgiven because they called upon the name of his Son for mercy, despite the imperfection of their lives.  

[Anddenex]

In answer to all the questions, he will be fine and the wife will be fine for all the times she may have not shared her true feelings either.

 

I can't see the Lord being concerned regarding this type of scenario; although, it does give me a good chuckle thinking about Geico's "Honest Abe" commercial -- LOL

[Just_A_Guy]

If we're going to say that all factually inaccurate statements are worthy of damnation, why not go whole hog and pitch a hypothetical about the little old German man who hid Jews, lied to the S.S. about it, was found out, and summarily executed?

[askandanswer]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  Speculating on a wildly hypothetical situation when the only answer to the question of anyone's fate in the next world is up to Heavenly Father.

 

This is not a wildly hypothetical thread. It posits a situation of person who has lived a very good life but almost at the end, engages in a form of behaviour - stating a mistruth - that in some circumstances, (note the "some") might be worthy of condemnation, and then moves on into the next life before having time to repent, if indeed, there is a need to repent. I think there might be many who find themselves to be in a comparable situation.

 

A reason to speculate on this situation is that coming up with a plausible response could provide greater insights into how the scriptures I referred to could be interpreted and understood. If we want to have a well developed understanding of what the scriptures mean, then it may be helpful to have an understanding of what they mean in all circumstances and the extent, and limitations, of that meaning. 

[askandanswer]

More importantly, God sees the desires and intents of our hearts. In this "sin" as you define, his intent was to show love and compassion for his wife. One of the important roles he has to his eternal companion. 

 

I have not defined it as a sin. To quote from my post:

Was it a sin

Did he lie? 

by repeating an action that may be sinful

 

I have asked questions, not made statements. 

[askandanswer]

I don't understand so much time some spend on speculating over things of no consequence (or reality). There are so many useful things, pursuits of saving knowledge, and good causes we should be anxiously engaged in. 

 

I disagree that this scenario does not reflect reality. As I suggested above, I believe that there may be many people who have lived good lives and then towards the end of their lives, whether that be at a young or old age, do something that is inconsistent with the overall pattern of their lives, and then are taken away before they have a chance to repent. The scriptures I have quoted seem to suggest that unrepented sin might out-weight the cumulative effects of a life of righteousness as sin brings uncleaness and no unclean thing can dwell with God.

 

I also disagree that it is a waste of time to engage in thought and discussion about the kinds of actions, or inactions, that might or might not, have an impact on our eternal salvation. Hopefully we all often engage in such contemplation. In fact, giving consideration to this question might well fall under heading of the pursuit of saving knowledge you have referred to.    

[askandanswer]

The question involves some fallacious thinking.  It seems to suggest that the righteousness of the man in question was reflected by his serving in various Church callings.  It focuses on works and does not include grace in the least.  Many latter-day saints are mistaken in this kind of thinking.

 

The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that we are saved by grace.  

 

"And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king" (Alma 22:14, italics added).

 

None of us deserve to be saved.  Nothing we do merits it.  Whether like the man in the "scenario" we lie or we don't, none of us do anything that can merit salvation.  We are saved by the atonement of Christ.  If we exercise faith and repentance, Christ is merciful and saves us despite our errors and mistakes.  Nobody will be error-free when we leave this life.  

 

We keep the commandments because we love God, not because we earn his love or forgiveness by doing so.  We practice living a celestial law on this earth so we may be able to enjoy the blessings of heaven here while we are in mortality.  We will be pleasantly surprised when we see who Father has forgiven because they called upon the name of his Son for mercy, despite the imperfection of their lives.  

My question is not so much about what actions the man in the scenario might need to do to be saved, or whether or not his actions, or our actions will have any impact at all on our prospects for salvation. It is more a question of whether or not certain actions might be sufficient to prevent a person from being saved. You mention in your post that "If we exercise faith and repentance, Christ is merciful and saves us despite our errors and mistakes." I agree. My question is about whether a man who has exercised faith but has not repented of what might be a small sin at the end of his life, will still be saved, and if he can, what are we to make of those scriptures that teach about God not looking up sin with the least degree of allowance? 

[askandanswer]

If we're going to say that all factually inaccurate statements are worthy of damnation, why not go whole hog and pitch a hypothetical about the little old German man who hid Jews, lied to the S.S. about it, was found out, and summarily executed?

 

A very good question. And if we conclude that his lieing to the SS was ok, then immediately we are faced with the questions of how are we to interpret and understand the scriptures, and many others like them, that I referred to? 

[Just_A_Guy]

I haven't done an exhaustive reconciliation of the issue; but my gut reaction is that the ninth commandment isn't that we not lie; it's that we not bear false witness against our neighbor. In other words, we should't make incorrect statements for the deliberate purpose of harming someone else.

I don't think Miep Gies is now in hell because she never "repented" for hiding Otto Frank and his family; and (on a much, much smaller level) I'm strongly disinclined to think that God really considers it "sin" for a husband to choose to conceal from his wife a truth that is not helpful, not remediable and potentially harmful.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

Man. I hope I don't die during the Christmas season while perpetuating the jolly fat man in a red suit thing.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Askandanswer, none of us will become perfect in this life, it's simply impossible.  That means that no matter how hard will try, we'll all die with some sort of sin.  Remember King Benjamin (?) said there are numerous ways to sin, so many that there is not a way to number them?  The point is we are saved by grace after all we can do.  We are in Christ's loving hands.

 

Also I don't think the scenario you suggested is a "lie".  IMO a lie is an attempt to deceive and even that is not always a sin, as TFP and JAG pointed out.

[askandanswer]

Man. I hope I don't die during the Christmas season while perpetuating the jolly fat man in a red suit thing.

 

"Perpetuating"? I thought you were Santa perpetuating being a Folk Prophet.

[beefche]

 My question is about whether a man who has exercised faith but has not repented of what might be a small sin at the end of his life, will still be saved, and if he can, what are we to make of those scriptures that teach about God not looking up sin with the least degree of allowance? 

 

 

I don't think it's the "lying" that may condemn this man, but his attitude of not repenting.  

 

I think as we mature in the Gospel of Christ, repenting becomes a way of life, a way of becoming like Christ. It isn't a checklist--I lied about x, so I repent of that. But, repenting is wanting and doing better than yesterday. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I don't think it's the "lying" that may condemn this man, but his attitude of not repenting.  

 

I think as we mature in the Gospel of Christ, repenting becomes a way of life, a way of becoming like Christ. It isn't a checklist--I lied about x, so I repent of that. But, repenting is wanting and doing better than yesterday. 

 

Well said.

[askandanswer]

It seems like quite a few responses are centred on the question of whether or not the what the man said constitutes a lie. This is not the point I had been hoping the discussion would focus on so perhaps it might be better to change the ending of the scenario.

 

Consider this:

 

On the way to the mission reunion, the man's car is hit by another car travelling at high speed through a stop sign. The wife is trapped in the car and injured, the husband less so. He struggles out of the car and the other driver approaches. In his grief and anger and his frustration at being unable to get his wife out, he swears and curses at the driver and insults him and when the other driver makes a rude reply, he punches him on the nose, breaking it. The stress of the event triggers an asthma attack and he dies at the scene, gasping for breath, still angry at the other driver and unrepentant for breaking his nose.

 

And some of the relevant scriptures:

 

Luke 3:14

And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

 

 

John 13:34

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

 

 

3 Nephi 12: 22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

So, the same question: What will be the fate of this good and righteous man who in one brief moment near the end of his life acted in a manner contrary to Christ's teachings, as recorded in the above scriptures?

[Guest]

I think you are straining at gnats. Looking beyond the mark. Focusing on letter over spirit. I think it's one way the adversary distracts us... Has our attention turned toward inconsequential things and away from where our energies should be.

The Lord looks on the heart. He knows not only who we are, but who we were and who we are striving to become. I'm frankly sad for you, if you think He would take these small moments, without context or any sort of mercy, and use them as the measure of what a man is. I just don't see any evidence that He operates like that.

[BeccaKirstyn]

Obviously you have some purpose for asking these questions with these scriptural verses referenced that you're wanting us to get at. What is this purpose? Do you feel you have a personal experience similar to this that you need an answer to? Or a friend that had a similar situation? None of us can determine the outcome of any individual. To try to do so is to have the mind of God, which is not even possible. He is all knowing. We are not. 

 

I'm just not sure what you're getting at here.