The public school teacher salary thread


Vort
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This may be a minor point, but even the elite private schools (sometimes with tuition higher than universities) have their share of mediocre teachers.  A perhaps mid-level point:  Higher education standards may not always produce better teachers, but it would be pretty safe to argue that there are fewer poor to mediocre teachers in the ranks of graduate degree holders than there are among those without.  As for disbanding public education, it's an interesting discussion academically, but realistically, support for such is so low it's a non-starter.  I would support tax credits for those who choose private education or home-schooling, however.

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As Vort said, there are a number of people that aren't even taking enough initiative in a public, "free" schools … If you take away both the ease and responsibility of putting children in an available, publicly funded school … it wouldn't happen.

You can't have it both ways. Either the grtf-welfare schools do or do not really educate children.

If the parents won't do it themselves, there is essentially no chance of the grtf-welfare schools' doing it, either. Illiteracy runs in families because the parents don't care. Yes, even with all the control and all the cost, and all the interference in family life, government cannot educate children unless their parents co-operate, nay, insist the children learn.

So it does not matter if the government is involved or not: the uneducated will be uneducated.

There is, however, an opposite problem, a real one, with a real solution. Schools were designed so it would take much, much longer to learn anything than it should take. Why? Because there are three reasons for grtf-welfare schools: 1) to divorce children from their parents and their parents' values. 2) To keep children out of the labor market. 3) To indoctrinate children (and the adults they will become) into the religion of prytaneolatry (the worship of government).

The second one is the reason it takes so long to learn.

An adult who wants to learn something does not interrupt himself every hour to learn something totally unrelated. Retired after thirty years in the classroom, John Taylor Gatto, twice New York City Teacher of the year and once the state laureate, calls this teaching the disconnectedness of everything. (Read his magnus opus, The Underground History of American Education, for free at johntaylorgatto dot com.) Do not mistake: he was a superstar as a teacher, and loved teaching. He hated the school system precisely because it is not about education. He wrote a letter to the editor of the Wall Street Journal where the last sentences were something like: “I'm retiring in September. If you know of a job where I do not have to hurt children for a living, please let me know.”

Schools are, by their very existence, hurt children, hurt parents, hurt taxpayers, and hurt teachers. Call it a conspiracy theory if you must, but the evidence is overwhelming to an impartial investigator.

There would be an enormous number of uneducated, educationally (and otherwise) neglected children growing into uneducated adults who probably didn't learn how to learn or take responsibility for themselves. The gap between rich and poor would get even bigger. That IS my business, because I live here, and I like not being in a third world country.

we are rapidly becoming a third world country as it is. Einstein famously said two things that apply here: 1) You cannot turn to the same people who caused the problem to solve it. 2) Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

Lehi

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[E]ven the elite private schools (sometimes with tuition higher than universities) have their share of mediocre teachers.

That may be, but these alleged schools with their alleged mediocre teachers have one thing going for the students that a grtf-welfare school cannot have: the students or the parents can fire the school by simply walking away. They cannot do that in a grtf-welfare school.

Higher education standards may not always produce better teachers, but it would be pretty safe to argue that there are fewer poor to mediocre teachers in the ranks of graduate degree holders than there are among those without.

You might lose that bet. There are numerous studies that show that not only do schools of education in any college have, on average, students who performed most poorly on any of the standardized admissions tests. Further, of all graduate students, those in schools of education have even worse scores. The administrators are, of all otherwise similar people, the least intellignet.

When a student drops out of an engineering program (and it is most likely for poor performance) or other technical program, they most often end up in the school of education.

I am not saying, I am not saying, I am not saying that all teachers are dumb. I am saying that the statistics show that, on average, teachers are the least intelligent, and school administrators are, on average, the least intelligent of teachers.

As for disbanding public education, it's an interesting discussion academically, but realistically, support for such is so low it's a non-starter. I would support tax credits for those who choose private education or home-schooling, however.

Tax credits, vouchers, and other such schemes may provide short-term benefits, but there are a couple of reasons I strenuously oppose them: 1) Politicians and bureaucrats do not gladly give up power. They will write these laws and regulations in such a way that all hitherto private education (schools F-CEd, etc.) will become more and more regulated. The tendency of government is to get bigger. Tax credits, vouchers, and so on, will not change this trend. 2) As this money is “taxpayer money”, the people will insist on oversight, and limits as to how “their” money is spent. So, even if the bureaucrats were not going to force private education into the mold of the grtf-welfare schools, the public would. In a pluralistic society like ours, the man who believes most and who has the highest standards will eventually have to give way to the man who believes less, and whose standards are lower. And he to the next guy, and so on until the man with no beliefs and no standards will dictate what the others can do.

Lehi

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Wow, long post.

In short, that's a false dichotomy. Parents need to be involved too some extent no matter what avenue of education is chosen, for kids to have the best success.

Though I'll admit to just skimming that long long post, in part because I realize that a libertarian and a moderate probably aren't going to convince each other of anything.

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I'll admit to just skimming that long long post, in part because I realize that a libertarian and a moderate probably aren't going to convince each other of anything.

So you're not going to even consider that you may be wrong?

I was where you are. I found additional information that made me stop to think. The more I investigated, the more it became clear that government has no legitimate business in educating children.

Lehi

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So you're not going to even consider that you may be wrong?

I was where you are. I found additional information that made me stop to think. The more I investigated, the more it became clear that government has no legitimate business in educating children.

Lehi

 

 

Have you ever considered the fact that as a parent...she is tired of being told she is a failure as a parent, by some random stranger on the internet flogging whatever hobby horse hobby horse floats their boat?

 

As for the subject I read your dire warnings and grim pronouncements and I compare it to my own personal experience in the public school system.  I went through it as a kid, and in my case your dire predictions failed.  My kids are in public school and all signs point to them turning out alright.  (Although I admit it might be a bit early to tell)

 

So from my personal experience I can only reach 3 possible conclusions to your claims. 1. That you are making it up by reading into thing what you want to see.  2.  That you aren't making it up but the people who made those claims are incompetent, and have utterly failed.  Or 3.  You aren't making things up, the people aren't incompetent, but that even at six to eight hours a day it is very hard to over come the power influence of an active and engaged parent even if that parent it using the public school system.

 

I am tending toward number three...  I think the problem starts and ends with parents who don't care to really be a parent.  And that has always been a problem no matter what school system is used.  Thus discussing school system is discussing a symptom and not the the root cause.  And no fix will work unless it changes the heart of the uncaring parents.

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Have you ever considered the fact that as a parent...she is tired of being told she is a failure as a parent, by some random stranger on the internet flogging whatever hobby horse hobby horse floats their boat?

Your third 'graf kinda sortta refutes this statement.

But, yes, I have considered it. Nonetheless, the danger is so stark that people must know. What they do about it is not up to me. But, when they rebut the evidence, and come up with none of their own, one must conclude that it is, as you imply, all emotional.

I do not consider her a failure as a parent. I don't know her. I don't know her children. One might be the fifth-next prophet for all I know. But the fact that she (or anyone) accepts government-run, tax-funded welfare schools as the best way for society to fulfill our duty to the next generation is worrisome.

Thomas Jefferson said it well. People get used to things, and it is only when they get too bad will they overthrow the established forms and institute new ones. Government-run, tax-funded welfare schools are part of the “established forms”.

 

As for the subject I read your dire warnings and grim pronouncements and I compare it to my own personal experience in the public school system. I went through it as a kid, and in my case your dire predictions failed. My kids are in public school and all signs point to them turning out alright. (Although I admit it might be a bit early to tell)

We have seven children and 33 grandchildren. I wish we could say that all were being Educated in the Families, but I cannot. And they are all great kiddos, F-CEd or grtf-welfare schooled. But it is a wonder to see how hard the daughters-in-law are willing to work to overcome the effects of grtf-welfare schooling (per your third 'graf) rather than do it themselves. We found it to be much less work to teach them correct principles ourselves, rather than unteach incorrect, even evil, principles when they got home.

You are right. It is early. But we are not just talking about one family. We are talking about the entire culture in USmerica.

We have 50% illiteracy, people don't know the Constitution, have no idea that it was Britain against whom our father rebelled. Math and science scores are dismal, at best. But it is not about “education” that I worry most: it's about the milieu, the environment in school.

Brigham Young, in counsel no one has shown me to be revoked, told the Saints that they ought not send their children to grtf-welfare schools because they would be taught by unbelievers. Seminary was started in Magna, Utah, because young LDS students were coming home from high school swearing and smoking. I submit that it is far worse today. MIA Maids don't get pregnant because their parents taught them it was okeh around their dinner table. Priests don't get addicted to drugs (or become fathers) after their parents told them the wonders of heroine and illicit sex.

They learn these things in school. Often not, but frequently, from the teachers.

 

So from my personal experience I can only reach 3 possible conclusions to your claims. 1. That you are making it up by reading into thing what you want to see. 2. That you aren't making it up but the people who made those claims are incompetent, and have utterly failed. Or 3. You aren't making things up, the people aren't incompetent, but that even at six to eight hours a day it is very hard to over come the power influence of an active and engaged parent even if that parent it using the public school system.

Well thanks, at least, for not seeing me as a liar. I assure you that those I read (except for the pro-grtf-welfare school types) are not lying, either, nor are they incompetent. John Taylor Gatto won three teacher of the year awards, and he's on this side of the argument. Boyd K. Packer was, too. David O. Mc[\u]Kay said the same things, as have the vast majority of the modern prophets

Most parents have become lazy. In a way, we could compare them to men who have children by women to whom they not married: the government will pay for the maintenance of their offspring, why should they? It is a lot less expensive to have the state pay for educating your child than to do it yourself. Why bother?

Well, I further submit that it's because it's wrong on a dozen levels. Not only is it breaking the VII and X commandments, but it's a huge disservice to both your children and your society.

 

I am tending toward number three... I think the problem starts and ends with parents who don't care to really be a parent. And that has always been a problem no matter what school system is used. Thus discussing school system is discussing a symptom and not the the root cause. And no fix will work unless it changes the heart of the uncaring parents.

And how would you propose doing it? People used to take responsibility for their children more than they do today. One of the main reasons for this is the grtf-welfare school system. At the risk of repeating my self, it's just plain easier to let the state do it. So people have gotten lazy. They have bought into the lie that you cannot or should not do this at home.

If we were to eliminate all grtf-welfare schools, the vast majority of parents would re-assume their God-given responsibility to educate their children. There would be, to be sure, some who would not. But if Mrs. Carson could teach her sons to read, being unable to read herself (even in a grtf-welfare school family), it would not necessarily be because they are incompetent. They are, as you say uncaring.

But these are very rare. And there are alternatives. I point you to Mark Twains' Huckleberry Finn: the Widder Douglas got Huckleberry to go to school (again, though this was after Horace Mann had polluted the educational environment). She would have done the same thing had there been no school in town.

This is not a hobby horse for me: it's life and death. We have too many grandchildren who will have to grow up in a world where so many people are illiterate after having spent 12 years in school, where people depend on the state for everything because they have learned that the state it the source of all things good.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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I don't believe either of these are known to have been said by Einstein.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein, (attributed)

US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.

Albert Einstein

There for a minute, I was afraid someone else had said them. Turns out, my memory is not as bad as you feared.

But even if it wasn't him who said them, does it matter? Both are irrefutable.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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And how would you propose doing it? People used to take responsibility for their children more than they do today. One of the main reasons for this is the grtf-welfare school system. At the risk of repeating my self, it's just plain easier to let the state do it. So people have gotten lazy. They have bought into the lie that you cannot or should not do this at home.

 

 

I have proposed no plan  (beyond the Gospel itself)  But then I am not the one trying to "educate", "wake", or otherwise rally the masses... That is your doing... So what is your plan?  (Again beyond the Gospel itself)...  Because politicians show how easy it is to rouse people to ideas on what "should be."  But it is much much harder to have a doable path to get there that practical and doable.

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I don't know what it's like in the US, but in the UK, the average teacher quits in the first 5 years.

 

Beginning teachers earn about £30, 000/year($60, 000 currently). Head of year, about £70, 000($140, 000/year) and Headmasters, £100, 000/year(About $200, 000).

 

I am currently going back to school to finish my training myself because, in addition to  this, there is a £30, 000 incentive for IT teachers who are willing to get teacher certification.

 

This is because UK teaching is very, very difficult. You are micromanaged. Your work takes you far in to the night. You have to manage both parent expectations(Failing a child is ridiculously difficult) and stress is high. Because of this, despite very good wages, teachers are in desperate short supply.

 

 

But with a $60, 000 bursary as per: https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/bursaries-and-funding - I can put up with a difficult 5 years. That's a very sizeable down payment on a house.

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So what is your plan?  (Again beyond the Gospel itself)...  Because politicians show how easy it is to rouse people to ideas on what "should be."  But it is much much harder to have a doable path to get there that practical and doable.

The plan is to peacefully close all grtf-welfare schools by having people remove their children from the grasp of the state simply by disenrolling them and taking responsibilitty for them themselves.

With no grist for their mills there will be no "demand" for the schools and they will have to shut down.

Lehi

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The plan is to peacefully close all grtf-welfare schools by having people remove their children from the grasp of the state simply by disenrolling them and taking responsibilitty for them themselves.

With no grist for their mills there will be no "demand" for the schools and they will have to shut down.

Lehi

 

 

Except it will not...  You say this

 

 

If we were to eliminate all grtf-welfare schools, the vast majority of parents would re-assume their God-given responsibility to educate their children. There would be, to be sure, some who would not. But if Mrs. Carson could teach her sons to read, being unable to read herself (even in a grtf-welfare school family), it would not necessarily be because they are incompetent. They are, as you say uncaring.

 

 

Which has historically been proven false.  The whole reason Public school came about is because enough parents where neglecting it, to make government backed schools seem appealing.

 

Your method does not fundamentally change the nature of the parents.  Kids who's parents are fulling their God given stewardship to educate their children, by studying our and prayerfully choosing a path for the child's education will continue to do so. Even if/when public schools are not a option.  Parents that don't care, will continue to not care, and will blame their failure on other people (as they have always have)

 

Simple fact is there were problems with private education...  Public education did not solve those problems like people claimed it would.  But removing public education will not magically fix the problems private education had before it existed.  It not a magic fairy wand that changes irresponsible parents into responsible ones.

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Something to think about... we pay teachers waaaay too much.  (An Australian perspective and response to an American argument online.)

 

Forbes has this to say about supposed teacher salaries - the reader comments are reflective of the reality of teacher workload, pay and conditions. 

 

As for comparing engineer and teacher salaries - I think all you engineers should move over here as engineers enjoy very good pay here. Graduate engineers in Australia start out quite well and after five years they are earning more than teachers at the highest level of experience (which peaks at 12 years service), and in fact after five years they are earning as much, if not more than most principals.

 

"Annual  starting salaries for graduate [engineers] start at $63,000 with some earning up to $80,000. That figure can grow to more than $150,000 after five years."

 

Most of the people I know who are engineers in the prime of their careers, are living very comfortably while enjoying lucrative salaries. My friend's husband is earning $200,000+ working for Australian Rail, and receives bonuses and incentives for getting projects completed within certain time frames and so on. IF he works overtime on a project, he gets paid OVERTIME. This is never more evident to my friend when he's working on the weekend from home, and so is she... but he is getting paid for it.

 

In contrast, graduate teachers start on around $56,000 to $61,000 (depending on the state they live in and if they have a four year degree). This will peak at around $92,000 after 12 years of service. Most principals are barely reaching $150,000, most with a good 20+ years in the profession.  Private schools pay a lot more, and I have heard of principals of large and prestigious schools in the private sector being paid $200,000+ (this however is not the norm for most principals in Australia). 

 

From where I'm sitting, engineers are doing way better when it comes to salaries and conditions than teachers ever have - in this country at least. I always thought it was the same in the USA.

Edited by lagarthaaz
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There for a minute, I was afraid someone else had said them. Turns out, my memory is not as bad as you feared.

But even if it wasn't him who said them, does it matter? Both are irrefutable.

Lehi

 

Well, actually it does matter - how can an idea you are arguing for be 'irrefutable' if you can't even provide evidence for  where it came from?

 

Just for fun... see here for an example of why Einstein probably never said half the things that have been 'attributed' to him.

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That may be, but these alleged schools with their alleged mediocre teachers have one thing going for the students that a grtf-welfare school cannot have: the students or the parents can fire the school by simply walking away. They cannot do that in a grtf-welfare school.

 

 

Yes they can--and do--both before and after.  Realtors are usually well aware of the reputation of schools, and it's very common for house-buyers with children to choose a home near a well-rated school (or even district).  In fact, we did this.  Also, some districts are allowing parents to "choice" their children into any school in the district.  Finally, if a school proves to be poison, people can move, temporarily home school, or even consider private education.  You may think these options unlikely, but I'm guessing that once a child is enrolled in a private school it is also unlikely that the family will leave because of a mediocre teacher.

 

 

There are numerous studies that show that not only do schools of education in any college have, on average, students who performed most poorly on any of the standardized admissions tests. Further, of all graduate students, those in schools of education have even worse scores. The administrators are, of all otherwise similar people, the least intellignet.

 

 

Scholars do not generally want to teach at an elementary or secondary level.  So, sure, the very most intelligent will likely go into research, or higher education.  However, your comments do not address my claim.  I said that those teachers who complete Masters degrees are less likely to be poor or mediocre than those who do not.  People who care enough about the profession to go after higher levels of learning are generally going to be better than those who do just what they have to. 

 

 

When a student drops out of an engineering program (and it is most likely for poor performance) or other technical program, they most often end up in the school of education.

 

 

This has the feel of a pot shot.  Is this really true, or just something that gets said.  It's like the old canard, "Those who can't...teach."  It's unproven and untrue.

 

 

I am not saying, I am not saying, I am not saying that all teachers are dumb. I am saying that the statistics show that, on average, teachers are the least intelligent, and school administrators are, on average, the least intelligent of teachers.

 

 

Again this is a misleading stat.  Those who find fulfillment in working with the young (vs. grappling with the very most complex issues at the cutting edge of a field) are less likely to be great lab researchers.  They just might make great teachers though.

 

 

Tax credits, vouchers, and other such schemes may provide short-term benefits, but there are a couple of reasons I strenuously oppose them: 1) Politicians and bureaucrats do not gladly give up power. They will write these laws and regulations in such a way that all hitherto private education (schools F-CEd, etc.) will become more and more regulated. The tendency of government is to get bigger. Tax credits, vouchers, and so on, will not change this trend. 2) As this money is “taxpayer money”, the people will insist on oversight, and limits as to how “their” money is spent. So, even if the bureaucrats were not going to force private education into the mold of the grtf-welfare schools, the public would. In a pluralistic society like ours, the man who believes most and who has the highest standards will eventually have to give way to the man who believes less, and whose standards are lower. And he to the next guy, and so on until the man with no beliefs and no standards will dictate what the others can do.

Lehi

Tax credits differ from vouchers.  They are not government money.  I get a lower tax, or a larger refund.  I do not get a regulated "voucher."  This is why I was careful to propose tax credits, not vouchers.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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Prestige I dispute. Teachers are largely put on a major pedestal. Seen as martyrs and victims, they do have prestige.

Do not forget that I was a teacher. I was on the path to a credential*. I know what goes on in the teachers' lounge. You claim relatives who are teachers. I'll put mine up against yours any time: sisters, mother, mother-in-law, father-in-law, cousins, aunts, and others.

 

 

What prestige? What pedestal? Oh, you mean in discussions like this one?

 

I typed a lengthy response to many of the things you have said, but your comments about teachers are so unpalatable that I don't even want to engage.

 

It is good to know that someone with a whole ONE year of experience as a substitute teacher can tell the rest of the profession about what "really" goes on in schools. 

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What prestige? What pedestal? Oh, you mean in discussions like this one?

Yes, a pedestal. This discussion is an anomaly.

It is good to know that someone with a whole ONE year of experience as a substitute teacher can tell the rest of the profession about what "really" goes on in schools.

I'm trained to be observant. It is not solely based on my experience in the classroom and the teachers' lounge that informs me.

Lehi

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Well, actually it does matter - how can an idea you are arguing for be 'irrefutable' if you can't even provide evidence for  where it came from?

The origin and the idea are separate issues.

If Einstein said them, they are true. If Joe Schmedlap said them, they remain true.

 

Just for fun... see here for an example of why Einstein probably never said half the things that have been 'attributed' to him.

Again, it does not matter if he said them or not. What matters is if they are true.

Is it logical to do the same thing again and again and expect different outcomes?

Is it reasonable to turn to the same type of thinking that produced the problem in order to solve it?

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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Tax credits differ from vouchers.  They are not government money.  I get a lower tax, or a larger refund.  I do not get a regulated "voucher."  This is why I was careful to propose tax credits, not vouchers.

Does it matter? If the government is in control of what qualifies for the credit or voucher, it is in control, not you.

Lehi

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Yes they can--and do--both before and after. Realtors are usually well aware of the reputation of schools, and it's very common for house-buyers with children to choose a home near a well-rated school (or even district). In fact, we did this. Also, some districts are allowing parents to "choice" their children into any school in the district. Finally, if a school proves to be poison, people can move, temporarily home school, or even consider private education. You may think these options unlikely, but I'm guessing that once a child is enrolled in a private school it is also unlikely that the family will leave because of a mediocre teacher.

In some areas, it may be possible. In most, it's not possible.

Yes, a district or a school may be "highly rated", but that is in comparison to other grtf-welfare schools, not to the potential of childhood education.

As to whether a parent chooses to leave a private school because of a mediocre teacher, it's the parent's call. But it is not only possible, it is easy (quite unlike a grtf-welfare school, even the most "liberal" regarding where the child attends).

Lehi

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Lot's of interesting opinions about our public education system, some good, some ....just arrogantly ignorant and insulting to a noble calling. My wife has been in education on some level for her entire adult life (about 27 years) and I think it would be incredibly difficult to find many that are her equal with regard to passion and work ethic. She began her career as a high school math teacher earning $19,500 and now as a Principle of a high school (working 60 hours a week) earns $75,000. She works year round, no summers off.....

 

She has also been an education consultant and author of about a dozen algebra text books earning a healthy six figure income, but, loves kids and wants to be involved with them and is passionately committed to developing educators into the best educators the flawed system we have will allow. There are many excellent educators and some that should seek employment elsewhere....just like most professions. The obvious difference is the future of our nations children.

 

My wife could easily stay home and not work if she chose to do so due to my income ....as could many teachers. Oh, and she could have easily been an "engineer" or pretty much anything else as she is far beyond "average". Like the church manual....Teaching, no greater calling.

 

If we want the education system to change, we need to get the political correct lunacy in check and keep the federal government away from our children. Mean while, let's try and honor teachers for their willingness to serve.

Edited by bytor2112
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Scholars do not generally want to teach at an elementary or secondary level. So, sure, the very most intelligent will likely go into research, or higher education. However, your comments do not address my claim. I said that those teachers who complete Masters degrees are less likely to be poor or mediocre than those who do not. People who care enough about the profession to go after higher levels of learning are generally going to be better than those who do just what they have to.

One of the other posters here, lagarthaaz, just wrote that he is going to take additional class work in order to get a higher paycheck. His experience is in Australia, but there is no reason to assume that USmerican teachers would not do the same thing.

It is not mandatory, or even strongly likely, that a teacher would go for a higher paycheck, irrespective of his dedication to the "calling".

Lehi

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