Question about Tithing and what amount should be paid.

[pam]

 

 

Your thoughts on this manner would be helpful.

 

I can appreciate that you came to the forums and started a discussion.  Thank you.

 

That being said. Anytime one asks for the thoughts of others, you are going to get opinions or thoughts from one end of the spectrum to the other.  So calling someone self righteous or judgmental is not quite fair.  

[omegaseamaster75]

I can appreciate that you came to the forums and started a discussion.  Thank you.

 

That being said. Anytime one asks for the thoughts of others, you are going to get opinions or thoughts from one end of the spectrum to the other.  So calling someone self righteous or judgmental is not quite fair.  

I kind of get where the OP is coming from. I have been in church and when the lesson is on tithing with out fail someone gets up and says "do you want gross blessings or net blessings" It grinds my gears. Some without intention I am sure come off sounding this way....in fairness self righteous and judgmental.

Edited October 14, 2015 by omegaseamaster75

[Guest]

Take it up with Heavenly Father. Pray about it. 

[Guest]

Paying tithing off a paycheck by using gross versus net is only an issue because the United States of America decided to make it a law to withhold taxes.  Not all countries do this.

 

Now, to determine how much the government takes out of your earnings, it doesn't consider "gross pay" or "gross pay minus expenses".  The government simply slices off x% out of your earnings.  Therefore, the money the government took out is part of your earnings - or your increase.  So, it seems really weird to me to be okay with taxing full earnings but not tithing full earnings.

 

Now, because the government wants to reward certain things or equalize certain things, the government decides to allow you to pay lower taxes for certain reasons - like, if you have children, they want to lower your tax so you'll have more money to care for your children, etc.  This does not mean that the government all of a sudden decided that you didn't really earn x amount, you only earned x-y amount (taxable income).  No.  Your earnings remained the same.  The government simply decided they're not gonna tax you on all of it for certain reasons.  This is, of course, according to the discretion of government.  They can change that anytime they want - as is evident by the constitutionality of obamacare.

 

Now, the general concept of earnings (or increase) is that you labor and get something out of your labors.  This is your increase.  What you spend your increase on, is your expenses - therefore, if you decide to buy a house with your increase, then your house is your expense.  So that, if you decide to buy a McMansion it doesn't mean that your earnings become small.  No, it just means your expenses become big, your earnings stayed the same.

 

If you're a business, your increase is the profit of the business.  So that, if you have a lemonade stand and it cost you 10 cents for the lemons and another 10 cents for the cup, and you were able to sell it for a buck, your increase is only 80 cents.  Now, if you buy a house with that 80 cents, it doesn't reduce your earnings.  You still earned 80 cents, you just spent your earnings on a house.

 

Make sense?

Edited October 14, 2015 by anatess

[estradling75]

I kind of get where the OP is coming from. I have been in church and when the lesson is on tithing with out fail someone gets up and says "do you want gross blessings or net blessings" It grinds my gears. Some without intention I am sure come off sounding this way....in fairness self righteous and judgmental.

 

 

Except Vort didn't say anything about Gross or Net...  He talked about people who say they had no income/increase because they spent it all....  That is a whole level of different then the Gross vs net discussion

[estradling75]

 

10% of your income, how you decide that is up to you. Some people pay on gross income, some on net. It is between the individual and God. It is no ones business but your own and you shouldn't have to justify how or what you pay to anyone but God.

 

 

Not true... There is also the Yearly Tithing settlement with the bishop and he can very much ask you to justify if he think something is seriously off.

[Guest MormonGator]

This sounds very strange but I like tithing. Do you know the good it does to people who truly can't afford it? 

I pay tithing for a very selfish reason. It makes me feel better about myself. Are my motives wrong? Maybe. But my actions count more than my words. 

[omegaseamaster75]

Not true... There is also the Yearly Tithing settlement with the bishop and he can very much ask you to justify if he think something is seriously off.

He can ask, but can he call you a liar and withhold a temple recommend? I think that is unlikely

[Vort]

When you are at tithing settlement they do not ask you if you pay 10% of your annual income to tithing... they ask if you are a full tithe payer.... Now you have to ask yourself why??  Ill tell you why, because its between the lord and yourself.  Just because you do it one way does not mean others do it that way or even should.  So you should stop being so self righteous and pretentious. 

 

So let me make sure I understand you. Here is how the thread has gone between you and me, from my perspective:

 

Chilltothebone: I have always tithed on my income, but now I've read this here talk and I think it says I can deduct all my "expenses" just like a business, which would greatly lower my tithing burden. What do you think?

 

Vort: I think you are not a business.

 

Vort: I also have heard some people claim they shouldn't have to pay any tithing, because they spend all their money. I wish I were more patient with such people.

 

Chilltothebone: The bishop doesnt say that! That's just your opinion! You're self-righteous and pretentious!

 

Do I have it right?

 

So it seems you were not actually interested in hearing others' views, despite your initial claims. It seems rather that you wanted to hear echoes of your own brilliant insights into how to cut down on your tithing burden.

 

You should perhaps be more careful in the future not to ask for honest responses when you don't want them.

[estradling75]

He can ask, but can he call you a liar and withhold a temple recommend? I think that is unlikely

 

 

You are trying to alter what you said after the fact....  It is by definition the Bishop's business on members paying tithes..  Which makes your prior statement invalid.   The fact that you feel a negative response is 'unlikely' does not alter the bishop's role in the matter.

[Guest]

Why do you need to know what it was about? It wasn't a response to you.

 

...

 

Like I said, I'm not sure what you care. But does that explanation satisfy you?

 

Yeah.  I was just curious.  I took your emoticon in several different ways and I honestly did not know which you intended.

Curiosity satisfied.

[The Folk Prophet]

I kind of get where the OP is coming from. I have been in church and when the lesson is on tithing with out fail someone gets up and says "do you want gross blessings or net blessings" It grinds my gears. Some without intention I am sure come off sounding this way....in fairness self righteous and judgmental.

 

How is "do you want gross blessings or net blessings" self-righteous or judgmental?

[The Folk Prophet]

This sounds very strange but I like tithing. 

 

Why would that sound strange? I would expect that anyone with a true testimony of tithing would like paying it.

Edited October 15, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

...I would expect that anyone with a true testimony of tithing would like paying it.

 

This, my post, is for anyone to respond to.

 

Maybe I'm not faithful enough or spiritual enough to understand this.  I don't really know what a "testimony of tithing" is.  To me it's just practical.

 

Someone has to pay the bills.  And tithing is the method we've agreed to when we sign on.  It doesn't seem to be a "sacrifice" any more than paying $2 to obtain a gallon of milk.  And it all belongs to the Lord anyway.  So, giving the Lord back some of His money is fine by me.

 

I guess what I'm asking is: What are the spiritual aspects of tithing?

[Guest]

This, my post, is for anyone to respond to.

 

Maybe I'm not faithful enough or spiritual enough to understand this.  I don't really know what a "testimony of tithing" is.  To me it's just practical.

 

Someone has to pay the bills.  And tithing is the method we've agreed to when we sign on.  It doesn't seem to be a "sacrifice" any more than paying $2 to obtain a gallon of milk.  And it all belongs to the Lord anyway.  So, giving the Lord back some of His money is fine by me.

 

I guess what I'm asking is: What are the spiritual aspects of tithing?

 

My opinion:

 

The fact of the matter is, God's work will continue as He has planned even if every single one of us fail to faithfully pay tithes.  So, tithes is not for God's benefit but for ours.

 

From my experience, offering tithes is a constant acknowledgement that my spirit is what drives my body.  My body is simply a vessel for the spirit.  Everything temporal, therefore, has to be employed for the upliftment of the spirit.

 

The thing with temporal rewards for labor is that it is very easy to get puffed up and start thinking that, "I did this!  Me!  I am worth this!".  It is a normal temporal reaction to increase.  We then start to think that we don't need God because we are self-sufficient.

 

When I get my wages and I offer the first tenth of it to God, it reminds me that I am nothing without God.  And when I do that, I tend to spend the other 90% wisely... with eternal purpose in mind.  When I pay tithes, it would be difficult to then spend the next tenth gambling, for example.  Or it would be difficult to buy herion with it.

 

So, my husband and I paid tithes faithfully.  We never really did get any material blessings from it... I've heard of these testimonies too that when they started paying tithes, they got raises, was able to pay all the bills and have lots of money left over, etc. etc.

 

As a matter of fact, not too long after I got baptized, my husband lost his job.  We had a toddler and another baby on the way and he got scared.  So, he paid our bills with my paycheck's tithes.  He was of the mind that we're going to get caught up with tithes when he gets a job.  Well, the bills piled up and when he finally got a job, he paid the collectors and didn't pay tithes.  Not too long after that, he started thinking, I was paying tithes faithfully and I lost my job, I stopped paying tithes and I got a job... so he continued not to pay tithes.  Not too long after that we started skipping Sacrament because we had a baby and the baby was fussy so we stayed home.... and stayed home the next week... and stayed home the week after that... and then we started fighting and almost split up....

 

So yeah, after we quit offering tithes, we started sliding farther and farther away from the iron rod.

[Irishcolleen]

2 Corinthians 9 says, "6But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver"

 

So to me the question is, what can we give cheerfully?  Will God honor giving that is done without a willing heart? Does giving that is treated like a mandatory payment please God compared with giving that is an expression of love and gratitude?

 

We should gladly give.  God gave His only begotten Son to be a sacrifice for our sin.  We can never repay what our sin cost. So, out of gratitude we should give generously and sacrificially with a willing heart.  If we can't give cheerfully we need to examine ourselves to see why not.  Is it that we have a legitimate financial need that means we can't give over a certain amount? Is it that our priorities are out of whack? Is it that our relationship with God is lacking?

Edited October 15, 2015 by Irishcolleen

[The Folk Prophet]

This, my post, is for anyone to respond to.

 

Maybe I'm not faithful enough or spiritual enough to understand this.  I don't really know what a "testimony of tithing" is.  To me it's just practical.

 

Someone has to pay the bills.  And tithing is the method we've agreed to when we sign on.  It doesn't seem to be a "sacrifice" any more than paying $2 to obtain a gallon of milk.  And it all belongs to the Lord anyway.  So, giving the Lord back some of His money is fine by me.

 

I guess what I'm asking is: What are the spiritual aspects of tithing?

 

A testimony doesn't have to be spiritual. In the plainest terms, testimony is the expression of a witness of something. If the spirit has spoken to one that tithing is an true and important principle, than one may bear testimony that they have that understanding and knowledge. If one has paid tithing and seen positive results in their life from this, they may also give a witness of this. It may not be purely spiritual but it's still a testimony.

[Guest]

Ok, so forget the idea of the spiritual aspects of tithing.  What exactly is meant by a "testimony of tithing"?

[Guest]

So yeah, after we quit offering tithes, we started sliding farther and farther away from the iron rod.

 

We now have the background and the result.  But expound a bit more on this last sentence.  And how is this a "testimony of tithing"?

[The Folk Prophet]

Ok, so forget the idea of the spiritual aspects of tithing.  What exactly is meant by a "testimony of tithing"?

 

I would say that it is the ability to say that you know or strongly believe from experience and/or the spirit that tithing is a true and important principle. If one can honestly say that, they a testimony of it. I expect a lot of people say they have a testimony of it without those things, and they probably don't actually have testimonies of it, but....

[Guest]

I rather thought that a testimony was something that was supposed to inspire and edify.

 

"I'd like to bear my testimony that I know I'm supposed to pay my tithing."

 

Very inspiring.  See what I mean.  I don't do it grudgingly and I make no complaints and have absolutely no problems paying it.  But I don't really feel anything inspiring or edifying about doing so.

 

If my friend asked me to invest his money for a while.  Then, later, he asks for it back.  I go and get it and bring it back to him.  There was no complaint about it.  I have no problems with giving him back his money.  But I'm certainly not changed by it.

 

So, what is it I'm missing about this?

[Irishcolleen]

I rather thought that a testimony was something that was supposed to inspire and edify.

 

"I'd like to bear my testimony that I know I'm supposed to pay my tithing."

 

Very inspiring.  See what I mean.  I don't do it grudgingly and I make no complaints and have absolutely no problems paying it.  But I don't really feel anything inspiring or edifying about doing so.

 

If my friend asked me to invest his money for a while.  Then, later, he asks for it back.  I go and get it and bring it back to him.  There was no complaint about it.  I have no problems with giving him back his money.  But I'm certainly not changed by it.

 

So, what is it I'm missing about this?

 

 

Well, I think faith, like, love is word of action. You can know your gifts honor God and do it happily without feeling all warm and fuzzy about it.  We act in love when we truly love- even without "romantic" feelings.  We can act in faith without feeling we are overcome by any emotion. Not everything has to be a experience with deep emotional reactions in order for you to have a testimony of it. 

[The Folk Prophet]

I rather thought that a testimony was something that was supposed to inspire and edify.

 

"I'd like to bear my testimony that I know I'm supposed to pay my tithing."

 

Very inspiring.  See what I mean.  I don't do it grudgingly and I make no complaints and have absolutely no problems paying it.  But I don't really feel anything inspiring or edifying about doing so.

 

If my friend asked me to invest his money for a while.  Then, later, he asks for it back.  I go and get it and bring it back to him.  There was no complaint about it.  I have no problems with giving him back his money.  But I'm certainly not changed by it.

 

So, what is it I'm missing about this?

 

Usually I feel a pit in my stomach when I pay it because of all the bills, etc. I have. That isn't really relevant. I pay it with faith in spite of that. The edification and inspiration come in time. The reward is sure -- in God's time.

[Vort]

I rather thought that a testimony was something that was supposed to inspire and edify.

 

"I'd like to bear my testimony that I know I'm supposed to pay my tithing."

 

Very inspiring.  See what I mean.  I don't do it grudgingly and I make no complaints and have absolutely no problems paying it.  But I don't really feel anything inspiring or edifying about doing so.

 

If my friend asked me to invest his money for a while.  Then, later, he asks for it back.  I go and get it and bring it back to him.  There was no complaint about it.  I have no problems with giving him back his money.  But I'm certainly not changed by it.

 

So, what is it I'm missing about this?

 

An expression of testimony need not be edifying to be truthful. It is just an expression of witness. Of course, under many circumstances, the expression of a spiritual testimony is accompanied by the witness of the Holy Ghost, which is always edifying and (by definition) spiritual. But I would argue you can have a testimony of a gospel principle (such as tithing) that you can truthfully express without it necessarily being accompanied by a spiritual witness. That would be dependent on the spiritual state of the bearer and, more importantly, the hearer.

[JojoBag]

When you are at tithing settlement they do not ask you if you pay 10% of your annual income to tithing... they ask if you are a full tithe payer.... Now you have to ask yourself why??  Ill tell you why, because its between the lord and yourself.  Just because you do it one way does not mean others do it that way or even should.  So you should stop being so self righteous and pretentious. 

 

This is like saying there is more than one way back to Heaven.  Socialist "Christianity" teaches that you can get back to God by many different methods and that it really is just up to you to decide what God wants.  Christ taught differently.

 

 

13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

(Matthew 7:13–14)

Why ask for different opinions?  It sounds like you've already made up your mind.