Am I allowed to ask challenging questions here?


Byron
 Share

Recommended Posts

It seems in my last post, though approved by the moderator, I may have caused discord with a few members.

I checked your forum rules and I do not think I broke any rules but just in case there are certain social "unwritten" rules that the rest of you follow, please let me know if there are topics considered taboo.

 

I do have many questions because I do not want the answers from people who are already prejudiced against Mormons. That being said, my questions may be difficult for some to hear. 

 

But please bear me no ill will as I do not bear any of you ill will.

 

Again, I apologize to anyone I may have offended with my last posted question. I am simply seeking the truth. And as Christ said, "The truth shall set me free."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Challenging questions are fine. As long as you are willing to actually read the answers and acknowledge those answers.  Now if you are here to debate that our answers might be wrong or our beliefs are wrong...then you're at the wrong forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator

You sure are. Just be prepared-people have answers.  

 

This is not personal, so don't take it as such. I've noticed that some people who aren't LDS think they can "Debunk our faith" or tell us something we don't know. 

In all honesty, these are things most of us have been thinking about for 20 years. We aren't going to wake up and say "Oh yeah, Sarah on the internet proved me wrong. Boy was I silly!" Doesn't work that way. 

Just saying. Again, it's not personal 

Edited by MormonGator
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would help if you went to the "Introductions" section and told us a bit about yourself first.  That way we know where you are coming from.

 

General rules that I believe everyone should follow when discussing someone's religion.

 

1) Don't think you know more about our faith than we do.  Most of the active posters here are very well versed in our faith.  When we talk about our doctrines and history, we know better than you or any anti-Mormon.  We live the faith.  We study the faith.  We know how it is applied on a daily basis and how it effects our words, thoughts, acts, and feelings better than non-Mormons, just as you know more about your faith.  

 

2) Don't compare our worst to your best.  Compare best with best and worst with worst.

 

3) Leave room for "holy envy".  This means that you can sincerely say, "Hey, that is a wonderful principle in your faith.  I wish my faith did something like that."  It doesn't mean you're all ready to jump into the baptismal font.  It means that you can have sincere admiration for someone else's beliefs and practices even if you don't believe or do it yourself.

 

I have holy envy for the Catholic practice of Lent.  We do some other things that could be considered parallel.  But I really like the concept of celebrating and imitating Christ's 40 days in the wilderness.

 

4) Don't be a hypocrite.  Many "arguments" that folks make against our faith could easily be applied to them.  Jews make arguments against Christianity as a whole that non-Mormons make against Mormons.  Or they apply the same arguments that Atheists make against all people of religion.  Then the most obvious is when they have some practices and beliefs that are essentially the same as what we're often criticized for.

 

5) Be polite.  Your post about 1 Corinhtians (should have been Galatians -- see my response) your phrasing sounded like, "Galatians says you're doing this wrong. Explain yourself."  See, you start off with the assumption that we differ from what the Bible teaches.

Rather, try "How do your beliefs and doctrines compare to what the Bible teaches?" This assumes nothing and allows us to share what we believe and allow you to make your own judgment.

 

6) One issue at a time.  If you expect us to debunk the entire encyclopedia of anti-Mormon attacks at once, then forget it.  That's not what this forum is about.

 

If you can follow these rules, even if you're an anti-Mormon, I personally would welcome the discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As one of the non-LDS posters here, I can tell you I've asked a ton of questions.  The "another gospel" one, though, is common on those "questions to ask Mormons" lists that get circulated.  You may also want to use the search engine to see if your question has already been discussed.  A few of those searches should give you a good feel for the site.

Edited by prisonchaplain
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As one of the non-LDS posters here, I can tell you I've asked a ton of questions.  The "another gospel" one, though, is common on those "questions to ask Mormons" lists that get circulated.  You may also want to use the search engine to see if your question has already been discussed.  A few of those searches should give you a good feel for the site.

I would also recommend that you read the Mosser-Owen Report in its entirety. As far back as 1997, mainline Christians were sounding the alarm that much of the anti-Mormon material in circulation was worthless, as it had long since been debunked (or at least successfully tabled). I can attest from personal experience that the situation hasn't changed in the nearly 20 years since the report was written.

**

General rules that I believe everyone should follow when discussing someone's religion.

 

1) Don't think you know more about our faith than we do.  Most of the active posters here are very well versed in our faith.  When we talk about our doctrines and history, we know better than you or any anti-Mormon.  We live the faith.  We study the faith.  We know how it is applied on a daily basis and how it effects our words, thoughts, acts, and feelings better than non-Mormons, just as you know more about your faith.

I myself have been doing apologetics work for about 15 years now. Back when I started, "debates" more closely resembled gutter brawls. This is because the Christian counter-cult that operated on the internet at the time functioned more like the KKK than a proper religious organization: The leaders would pump out hate speech, the followers would take the hate speech at face value, and both would quickly insult and threaten violence towards anyone who successfully deflated their falsehoods.

Old hands like myself aren't impressed whenever we see a Johnny-come-lately running up with a sheet of "facts" that their minister handed them; if anything, we're simply annoyed.

We'll answer questions from people who honestly want answers, but our patience is wearing thin with would-be "defenders of the faith".

 

2) Don't compare our worst to your best.  Compare best with best and worst with worst.

This goes with what I was saying above: we've seen too many "Good Christians" behave in ways that Christ himself directly warned against. So whenever you go to point a finger at someone, remember that three others are pointing right back at you.

 

4) Don't be a hypocrite.  Many "arguments" that folks make against our faith could easily be applied to them.  Jews make arguments against Christianity as a whole that non-Mormons make against Mormons.  Or they apply the same arguments that Atheists make against all people of religion.  Then the most obvious is when they have some practices and beliefs that are essentially the same as what we're often criticized for.

4A - Before you try to "correct" us about our beliefs, make sure that you have a fair grasp of your own beliefs. Start by reading the Bible cover-to-cover if you haven't done so already. Then research the Bible itself - how it was assembled, how it was preserved, how it was translated - and the history of whatever translation you're using. Once you're done with that, research your religious denomination, both its history and theology.

4B - Due diligence requires that a person study both sides of an issue. As such, if you wish to know more about the church, then you are obligated to visit Mormon.org and LDS.org alongside whatever hostile material you've encountered.

4C - There are a number of "Big Name" counter-cult authors that nobody outside of the counter-cult (and increasingly few within the counter-cult) takes seriously anymore. This is because these individuals have been found to be so factually incorrect, so hateful, and / or so dishonest with their writings that nothing they say can be trusted. This includes several individuals who have been discredited in some fashion, such as D. J. Nelson (whose doctorate degree and resume were both proven to be entirely fictitious, such that they couldn't withstand even a basic pre-employment background check). If you cite any of these individuals as references, then it'll pretty much kill the discussion then and there as we stop to explain why these people are not reliable as sources.

 

5) Be polite.  Your post about 1 Corinhtians (should have been Galatians -- see my response) your phrasing sounded like, "Galatians says you're doing this wrong. Explain yourself."  See, you start off with the assumption that we differ from what the Bible teaches.

Rather, try "How do your beliefs and doctrines compare to what the Bible teaches?" This assumes nothing and allows us to share what we believe and allow you to make your own judgment.

Starting off with an overt challenge will also put people on the defensive, making it more likely that the "discussion" will deteriorate into an argument.

 

6) One issue at a time.  If you expect us to debunk the entire encyclopedia of anti-Mormon attacks at once, then forget it.  That's not what this forum is about.

...or any good forum, for that matter.

For best results, limit things to one thread with one (or two related) topic(s) at a time. This will give everyone a chance to discuss everything in detail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The purposes of this site is to support the LDS faith...  As such we welcome sincere questions from sincere questioners.  As  prisonchaplain is an example of you don't have to be looking to convert to ask.

 

However we are not stupid and we have been doing this awhile... We have experienced people whose are not looking for answers, but instead they use questions as a form of attack... and as they get answered jump straight to the next attack.. When they get called out they then complain that we don't allow people to question..

 

Please note you are falling in to the pattern of attacker pretty much by the numbers.  If you wish to continue here you need to reconsider your approach.

Edited by estradling75
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems in my last post, though approved by the moderator, I may have caused discord with a few members.

I checked your forum rules and I do not think I broke any rules but just in case there are certain social "unwritten" rules that the rest of you follow, please let me know if there are topics considered taboo.

 

I do have many questions because I do not want the answers from people who are already prejudiced against Mormons. That being said, my questions may be difficult for some to hear. 

 

But please bear me no ill will as I do not bear any of you ill will.

 

Again, I apologize to anyone I may have offended with my last posted question. I am simply seeking the truth. And as Christ said, "The truth shall set me free."

I am puzzled by your statement ".....my questions may be difficult for some to hear". Latter-day Saints get asked questions all the time. I don't see why a question would "difficult for some to hear". If you have a legitimate question, you will get legitimate answers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would also recommend that you read the Mosser-Owen Report in its entirety. As far back as 1997, mainline Christians were sounding the alarm that much of the anti-Mormon material in circulation was worthless, as it had long since been debunked (or at least successfully tabled). I can attest from personal experience that the situation hasn't changed in the nearly 20 years since the report was written.

 

 

You are probably largely correct.  Robert Millet and Greg Johnson have engaged in some interesting, and relatively scholarly "convicted conversations."  Again, there is the Blomberg/Robinson book--published the same year as the report.  On the Evangelical side, the 2002 book The New Mormon Challenge acknowledges LDS scholarship, and urges a more intelligent, and yes Christ-like Evangelical approach to the difficulties we have with LDS doctrine.  All that to say, there are some exceptions to the scarcity of rigorous theological interaction between LDS and Evangelical communities.  Nevertheless, the exceptions we find are heartening.  BTW, I've printed the report, and will read it through.  Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You still come off as someone who's only intent is to demonstrate how wrong I am. It eeks from every word. The fact you consider the questions you asked as challenging...

It would help if you at least engaged on the question a bit instead of posing a one line question, cite the correct scripture, maybe even quote it. We'd love to give you our interpretation of scripture and how we see them. We'd love to discuss it. But we aren't interested in debunking a bunch of cruft that makes no sense.

Edited by jerome1232
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems in my last post, though approved by the moderator, I may have caused discord with a few members.

 

The moderator does not approve questions before they're posted (unless you are under some type of probation or there is some new policy with respect to new members of the list). More likely, if you post inflammatory and offensive things, you will be instructed to quit talking in a certain way, and if you continue, you will get booted.

 

EDIT: I am mistaken, as estradling notes below.

 

I checked your forum rules and I do not think I broke any rules but just in case there are certain social "unwritten" rules that the rest of you follow, please let me know if there are topics considered taboo.

 

Don't ask dishonest questions that have their (negative) answer built into the very way they are phrased. Another way of expressing this is: Have respect for the LDS Church and for its members.

 

I do have many questions because I do not want the answers from people who are already prejudiced against Mormons. That being said, my questions may be difficult for some to hear.

 

Doubtful. It is unlikely that you can ask any honest question, even a "challenging" one, that we here have not heard and probably responded to many times already.

 

Again, I apologize to anyone I may have offended with my last posted question. I am simply seeking the truth. And as Christ said, "The truth shall set me free."

 

I honor your search for truth. If your search is sincere, I hope it bears fruit. You can demonstrate your sincerity by limiting yourself to honest and unbiased inquiries. If your inquiries are unintentionally biased (which it is probable for even a sincere questioner), you can accept correction gracefully and seek to understand your own biases.
Edited by Vort
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

The moderator does not approve questions before they're posted (unless you are under some type of probation or there is some new policy with respect to new members of the list). More likely, if you post inflammatory and offensive things, you will be instructed to quit talking in a certain way, and if you continue, you will get booted.

 

 

 

With the new forum all new members first handful of post need mod approval before they go out.   This is more of an anti spam measure.  So yeah his post did get approved...  How ever a mod approving the post doesn't mean the Mod agrees with the post or isn't watching the reaction

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

my questions may be difficult for some to hear

 

I missed this gem, and it changes my view.

 

Your questions/accusations are old hat, son. Old hat. Shrek comes to mind: "You have the right. . . what you lack is the capacity."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems in my last post, though approved by the moderator, I may have caused discord with a few members.

I checked your forum rules and I do not think I broke any rules but just in case there are certain social "unwritten" rules that the rest of you follow, please let me know if there are topics considered taboo.

 

I do have many questions because I do not want the answers from people who are already prejudiced against Mormons. That being said, my questions may be difficult for some to hear. 

 

But please bear me no ill will as I do not bear any of you ill will.

 

Again, I apologize to anyone I may have offended with my last posted question. I am simply seeking the truth. And as Christ said, "The truth shall set me free."

 

Can you ask questions?  Totally!  Tough, easy, whatever, go for it.  The best person to ask what a Mormon believes is a Mormon, after all. 

 

Just be polite, listen to answers, and we'll chat all day  :D

 

(The major flaw of your first question was the out-of-the-blueness and people didn't know what to expect from you.  But we've fixed that now).

 

( Also echoing Eowyn's comment, as hard as your questions may feel, we've probably heard them before)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are probably largely correct.  Robert Millet and Greg Johnson have engaged in some interesting, and relatively scholarly "convicted conversations."  Again, there is the Blomberg/Robinson book--published the same year as the report.  On the Evangelical side, the 2002 book The New Mormon Challenge acknowledges LDS scholarship, and urges a more intelligent, and yes Christ-like Evangelical approach to the difficulties we have with LDS doctrine.  All that to say, there are some exceptions to the scarcity of rigorous theological interaction between LDS and Evangelical communities.  Nevertheless, the exceptions we find are heartening.  BTW, I've printed the report, and will read it through.  Thanks!

I was actually aiming that at Byron.

I use it as a primer to "shock" people I see waving about the standard canned arguments; it's a means of getting them to realize that something's not quite right with what they're about to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator

I asked some tough questions. IE-How come all three witnesses eventually broke from the church? How come Smith Jr dabbled in this or that as a youth? What about this discrepancy in the Book of Mormon compared to history? Did one of your "prophets" really say (insert anti-lds rumor about prophets)? 

And guess what-every questioned was answered. Ironically, the more I researched the church, the more I was convinced it was true

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was actually aiming that at Byron.

 

 

Don't worry--it only grazed me.  :cool:   Besides, the article is written by and for Evangelicals who consider intelligent theological discourse a great good, so I'd like to think I'm part of the audience the report itself was aimed at. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

That being said, my questions may be difficult for some to hear. 

...

I am simply seeking the truth. And as Christ said, "The truth shall set me free."

The issue we have is that all of your questions have been answered a thousand times. Even a couple of Evangelical researchers, Carl Mosser and Paul Owen*, have admitted that the usual charges against "Mormonism" have been refuted, or been made more "diffuse" (meaning that the question itself has been shown to be spurious or too broad to be of use logically).

* Look here: http://www.cometozarahemla.org/others/mosser-owen.html

Richard Mouw*, President of Fuller Theological Seminary has said that Evangelicals owe us, Latter-day Saints, an apology for "bearing false witness against [us]." His specific point was the continual assertion that our Church is a "cult" and that we are not "Christians". The broader point, though, that the very questions you have posed pre-suppose that we are not Christians, and that we are part of a "cult" (by which so many mean something that the word itself does not mean).

* Look here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/richard-mouw-evangelical-leader-says-engaging-mormonism-isnt-just-about-being-nice/2012/05/14/gIQA6wTMPU_story.html

So, if we get a bit short with you, please recall that it gets old refuting charges that the attacker brings when those charges have been shown completely erroneous. Each of us here, I'm sure, has answered your questions, yours and dozen more like them. It's just human nature to get war-weary.

But there is really only one answer, or, rather one source of answers: the Holy Ghost. Have you asked Him your questions? If He tells you The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's Church and that Thomas S. Monson is His prophet, what will you do about it? You last sentence implies that you are looking for the truth. will you sell all that you have and buy this pearl of great price? Unless you commit to that, God will not have His spirit reveal the truth to you. So the ball is in your court.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

RULE #1  You won't find the truth here in a discussion with us.  

 

Read the Book of Mormon with an open mind and pray to God whether it is true.  If it is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet, if not, then he was no better than any other theologian or scholar in the Christian churches.  

 

The truth will indeed set you free, but that is your burden, not ours.  That's between you and the Lord.

 

Apologetics is a hobby, like chess combined with football.

Edited by cdowis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share