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Byron

Clearing up misconceptions: Jesus' brother

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Hi there. I will be asking a series of questions and would like to insert this introduction before them all to ensure that my intent is not misconstrued.

Though I believe God tells us there is no sin greater than another, I have a particular distain for gossip. Thus I would like to take any hearsay given to me about Mormonism and put it under a spotlight and find the truth.

 

Hearsay: Mormon's believe Lucifer is Jesus' brother.

 

What is the truth here?

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The truth is that this is, bar none, the single stupidest complaint I have ever heard against Mormonism. This complaint alone is enough to convince me that anti-Mormons are terminally stupid and/or incurably dishonest.

 

Byron, before I can effectively respond yes/no to the question, please answer me this: What does it mean for two people or beings to be "brothers"?

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My understanding of brothers is to be born of the same mother or father or both mother and father. ie) James was Jesus' brother because he was born of Marry but fathered by Joseph. Jesus was born of Marry but fathered By God. (This according to my faith)

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My understanding of brothers is to be born of the same mother or father or both mother and father. ie) James was Jesus' brother because he was born of Marry but fathered by Joseph. Jesus was born of Marry but fathered By God. (This according to my faith)

 

That begs the question. What is a "father"? God is called "the Father". Does he qualify as a father?

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God the Father is the Father of all life: there is no other place from which it springs. He is the spiritual Father of Christ, Elvis, Mother Teresa, Hitler, Lucifer, and everyone else.  So in that sense, yes, Christ and Lucifer are brothers (along with Elvis, Mother Teresa, Hitler, and everyone else).

 

 

If you mean “brothers” as in comrades, then the answer is 100000000% no.  Christ was THE SON of God, in that He alone was perfectly obedient to the Father’s will and Savior of us all.  Lucifer on the other hand, rebelled against God, tried to usurp God’s power, and led many away.  Hence he was cast out of heaven, became the devil, never to be born on this Earth, never to progress, and always to be eternally miserable. 

Edited by Jane_Doe

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Interesting approach to the question. I almost made an assumption here but in keeping with the spirit of inquiry I want to maintain. Yes I believe God qualifies as THE father.

 

But how does that make Lucifer Jesus' brother?

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In a sense, but we believe in a premortal existence. We are all brothers and sisters. Jesus is our brother, Lucifer is our Brother, we are all children of God and thus brothers and sisters.

Lucifer fell in the preexistence and became the Devil, father of lies. It was my perception that many mainstream christians too believe that Satan fell from the presence of God in some fashion based on Isaiah 14:12

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No, it is not. Not in the sense the liar anti-Mormons want to claim.

 

What sense is that?

 

It is, literally, true, and any claim otherwise would be inaccurate. Jesus was and is the firstborn Son of God. Lucifer was and is also a spirit son of god, and therefore literally a spirit brother of Jesus.

 

If there's some other meaning to the idea of being brothers then I don't know what it is.

 

They're also both the brothers of Hitler, Stalin, and Jeffery Dahmer, as well as Moses, Isaiah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Being brothers doesn't define Jesus as anything but having been born a spirit child of God.

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This will be a good place to test my listening skills (or reading skills...):  Since LDS believe that we all have an eternal pre--existence, in a sense we are all family.  Jesus is the only begotten Son, yet He is the Son.  God created Lucifer, so he is a son.  We are sons.  So, there is brotherhood.  Nevertheless, Jesus can be worshiped, but Lucifer is not to be.  So, yes, kind of, but no not in a "equal status before God as 'immediate family' kind of brotherhood" that the question sometimes implies.

 

How'd I do?

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This will be a good place to test my listening skills (or reading skills...): Since LDS believe that we all have an eternal pre--existence, in a sense we are all family. Jesus is the only begotten Son, yet He is the Son. God created Lucifer, so he is a son. We are sons. So, there is brotherhood. Nevertheless, Jesus can be worshiped, but Lucifer is not to be. So, yes, kind of, but no not in a "equal status before God as 'immediate family' kind of brotherhood" that the question sometimes implies.

How'd I do?

If being a spirit child of Good qualifies one for worship then we should all be worshipping each other. This simple fact is not the qualifying one for why we worship Jesus.

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Interesting approach to the question. I almost made an assumption here but in keeping with the spirit of inquiry I want to maintain. Yes I believe God qualifies as THE father.

 

But how does that make Lucifer Jesus' brother?

 

Well, who's Lucifer's father?

 

Was somebody other than the Father the origin of his creation? 

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This will be a good place to test my listening skills (or reading skills...):  Since LDS believe that we all have an eternal pre--existence, in a sense we are all family.  Jesus is the only begotten Son, yet He is the Son.  God created Lucifer, so he is a son.  We are sons.  So, there is brotherhood.  Nevertheless, Jesus can be worshiped, but Lucifer is not to be.  So, yes, kind of, but no not in a "equal status before God as 'immediate family' kind of brotherhood" that the question sometimes implies.

 

How'd I do?

 

A+

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If being a spirit child of Good qualifies one for worship then we should all be worshipping each other. This simple fact is not the qualifying one for why we worship Jesus.

 

Jesus is God.  We agree on this.  We are not God.  We agree on this.  It is Jesus' Godhood--his place in the Godhead, that makes him worthy of worship.

 

Of course we understand the nature of the Godhead somewhat differently--yet, we agree that Jesus is unique, as God's only begotten Son--different from Lucifer as well.  Yes?

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I've explained this before as we believe that everyone was created by Heavenly Father and thus His child, including Satan or Lucifer. However, when Lucifer rebelled and was cast out by God, Satan gave up his "right" to be called my brother or the brother of Jesus. He is our enemy as he wants to prevent us from coming to Jesus.

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The reason this question gets so much traction is because of the different understanding of God between the LDS Godhead and the Christian Trinity.

 

To be incredibly simplistic, Trinitarian believe that God(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is fundamentally unique, he can't (or will not) create more like himself.  The LDS belief is creating more like himself is the whole point.

 

So when an Trinatarin hears "Satan is Jesus's brother" they hear "Satan is a partaker of the fundamentally unique nature of god"  or more simply "Satan is God"  Which understandably causes some heart burn.

 

Whereas for the LDS the idea is really a non starter.  For LDS Jesus, you, me Satan, are all members of God the Father's family so we are all Brothers and Sisters.  Jesus already became one with the Father and is willing to help us all do the same.  Satan rejected this and failed... the rest of us are still pending

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Jesus is God.  We agree on this.  We are not God.  We agree on this.  It is Jesus' Godhood--his place in the Godhead, that makes him worthy of worship.

 

Of course we understand the nature of the Godhead somewhat differently--yet, we agree that Jesus is unique, as God's only begotten Son--different from Lucifer as well.  Yes?

 

Only begotten in the flesh, yes.

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What sense is that?

 

estradling's response covers this well. Bottom line is that the anti-Mormons knowingly mix terminology and prey on the ignorance of non-Mormons by pretending that a totally spurious word game relationship is evidence that we think Satan is God.

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Bottom line -->> we are all the children of God the Father.  We all lived in the presence of Father before this mortal existence.  So, this means that we are all brothers and sisters of Satan, and of Christ.

Satan and his minions are the black sheep of our family.

Edited by cdowis

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estradling's response covers this well. Bottom line is that the anti-Mormons knowingly mix terminology and prey on the ignorance of non-Mormons by pretending that a totally spurious word game relationship is evidence that we think Satan is God.

 

 

That makes them wrong. It doesn't make the point-blank question in the OP wrong. There is no way of getting around that Mormons do, indeed, believe this simple fact to be true. Yes -- it takes some explaining because the theology is based on a whole different paradigm -- but it's still a true statement.

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That makes them wrong. It doesn't make the point-blank question in the OP wrong. There is no way of getting around that Mormons do, indeed, believe this simple fact to be true. Yes -- it takes some explaining because the theology is based on a whole different paradigm -- but it's still a true statement.

 

 

Problem is... how many Mormon's can explain where the fundamental difference lies in a way a Trinitarian would understand?  Simply saying we believe we are all brothers and sisters is potentially even more confusing 

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I learned something today. I just found out why so many people find premortal existance and the whole we are all brothers and sisters so offensive. Even knowing both positions, I had never put the two and two together as to why people would react so negatively.

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Out of curiosity, do the LDS distinguish between being a creator and a father? In my Baptist experience, I would say the Father created Satan, an angel who fell because of rebellion. And I would say Christ is the Father's begotton son- He calls Him Son, He was given a body like ours,etc...

 

Kinda like, I created a crocheted sweater, but it is a creation, not a child.  Not a perfect analogy, but best I can come up with.

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I learned something today. I just found out why so many people find premortal existance and the whole we are all brothers and sisters so offensive. Even knowing both positions, I had never put the two and two together as to why people would react so negatively.

 

Why?  What did you figure out about the positions?

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