Kirby: Pushing A Couple Into The Temple

[Gwen]

the article felt to me that there was a bit more attitude than just "i won't pay for it". go to the court house on your luch break i think the one said and the other give a bus ticket to vagas. i think those kinds of statments somehow imply that the union isn't as good, is worthless; and serisously how many ppl bring a large group to those places to marry (especially lds)? i think they sounded rather crass, however, didn't hear the whole thing or what was actually done; maybe they were just venting together. anyone who has ever heard me vent knows there is a lot said that after calming down isn't done.

i see this attitude a lot here in all faiths (as others have pointed out). i think what makes it so much more obvious in the lds faith is we put the emphasis on one place; the temple. that not only limits locations but guests, so it becomes (sometimes painfully) obvious to everyone that loves the couple and wants to celebrate with them that it is or is not taking place in the temple. among the baptists and others i know that are just as headstrong on staying (both for choice of spouse and sometimes but not as much location) within your own faith there is still plenty of choice and they can still invite all they would like. they may insist that they marry baptist, even insisting on a baptist minister to do the ceramony, there are many choices, location and guests aren't limited so ppl (particularly the guests) don't see the pressures as blatently obvious.

as for paying for things. i think the parents under any circumstance, temple or not, should have the final say in what and how much they will pay for (this goes for school too). i think it is stupid for ppl, the couple or their parents, to go into so much debt that they could have bought a second home over a wedding. yes it is sacred (no matter where), yes it is important, yes it should be celebrated; but at some point all the festivities (stress of getting things just so and worry over the cost and how are we going to pay for this, etc) distract from the vows. if looking at just the bottom line on weddings, temple weddings, even if you choose to have a huge reception, are far cheaper than the average wedding. i could see and support a parent who said, look kids i only have X amt for your wedding, that will get you a grand temple wedding and reception and that is your choice if that's what you do, but if you choose not to, i will do all i can to help and support; but i still only have X to spend. but take that X and plan, budget, spend in such a way that you get them most everything they would like within your budget.

there are some mormons (as with other faiths) that take it to extream. i don't think who one marries (or where) should ever be a reason to sever family ties. i don't think it's doctrinal or is taught in the chruch to do so. in my opinion the worse the person is the more they need us to be there, cause when it does go bad they will need somewhere to turn, not to feel alone. we can set boundries (and should) and when appropriate express concern; but never sever our ties to them.

[StrawberryFields]

I believe all weddings are overrated.

I have one son who married in the temple and two more still at home.

You can look at this attitude spread into more places than just a temple marriage. Look at the missionary program... if you don't go it affects your family as well as yourself. Then the shame of not having a temple marriage.... We had a family whose daughter got pregnant and they forced her to give the baby up. I just learned last week that this same girl got married and no one in the ward was invited... it wasn't a temple marriage.

I am not sure if my two younger children will chose a temple marriage or not but I will be there for them and I just pray that they find someone who will be good to them and they can build a life with that person.

I don't like judgment in the church

I don't like pretending in the church.... pretending that life is all fun and games

I don't like it when someone calls them self a Christian then turns around does something Christ would not do.

Life is short. If we have been blessed with children we need to realized that they our not just our children. These children belong to our Heavenly Father and they have a mission here as well.

[Guest Yediyd]

I believe all weddings are overrated.

I have one son who married in the temple and two more still at home.

You can look at this attitude spread into more places than just a temple marriage. Look at the missionary program... if you don't go it affects your family as well as yourself. Then the shame of not having a temple marriage.... We had a family whose daughter got pregnant and they forced her to give the baby up. I just learned last week that this same girl got married and no one in the ward was invited... it wasn't a temple marriage.

I am not sure if my two younger children will chose a temple marriage or not but I will be there for them and I just pray that they find someone who will be good to them and they can build a life with that person.

I don't like judgment in the church

I don't like pretending in the church.... pretending that life is all fun and games

I don't like it when someone calls them self a Christian then turns around does something Christ would not do.

Life is short. If we have been blessed with children we need to realized that they our not just our children. These children belong to our Heavenly Father and they have a mission here as well.

I agree with this Strawberry...we have a young lady in our ward who got pregnant at 14...she was shunned by the other "young woman" and admonished to give the child up by the Bishop...her parents took her and the child in instead...they love her AND her baby...that baby will turn 8 this week and be baptised by her loving grandfather...but her mother will not be at the baptism, because of the judgment that she received as a "young woman" she has left the church and is full of hurt and anger towards it...sad, really.

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

Kirby: Pushing a couple into the temple

Robert Kirby

Tribune columnist

...This isn't about whether getting married in the temple is important. This is about believing coercion is an acceptable way of getting people there. If you don't believe me, call the temple and ask if you can bring a hostage next time...

http://www.sltrib.com/columnists/ci_6538691

What are your views regarding this article? Do you feel that this does happen in Mormon families and if so why? If families are considered important, why do you think this attitude of coercion exists?

M. :)

I live here in part of the Bible belt and I hear this kind of thing from all religions...in regards to what kind of wedding will take place.....Mormons are not the only ones if thats what you are implying.

But how do you feel about coercion tactics in any family?

Let's say there are 2 couples:

Couple 1: Groom is LDS and Bride is convert LDS so her parents are non-LDS. They wish to marry in the Temple but it may cause problems for the non-LDS side of the family. How can both LDS children and non-LDS family work this out? I've heard the opposite POV where since the children are LDS and going to the temple, the wedding is really about the married couple covenanting with God. So the most important thing is the married couples wishes and the parents will just have to be accepting of their child's choice.

Couple 2: Groom born LDS but has become non-LDS, bride is non-LDS. The grooms parents are LDS and are extremely disappointed that their son will not be marrying in the temple. In this situation, are the married couples wishes more important than the parents? Should the groom's parents be supportive of their son and happy for him?

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't get why you see this as coercion, Maureen.

God promises those who do what He says that they will have His support and blessings forever.

God promises those who don't do what He says that they will have no support and will suffer damnation.

Does that mean God is coercing us?

My dad was raised LDS. My mom became LDS at 18. My mom's parents couldn't attend the temple marriage. There's no lingering bitterness or anger about it.

Insisting that only LDS members can attend a temple marriage is the Lord's way of emphasizing the value of eternal families.

It's one of those paradoxes that seems totally backwards but is true.

Another would be that the death penalty is society's way of affirming the sanctity of human life.

[Adomini22]

That isnt coersion at all. Sure, some parents want what they want and wont listen to anything else. But hey, if they were real adults, they would grow up by now. That isnt the point though...... as my first sentence says...that isnt coersion. not forceful............

[prisonchaplain]

But what if these adult children are just as devoutly religious, but their religion is not the same as their parents. Should these children be insincere in how they worship God for their parent's sake?

M.

No. We must ultimately be true to ourselves and the God we reconcile with. But, I would never dream of asking my parents to sponsor a religious wedding that ran contrary to how they raised me. And, I agree with all the posters who said that parents should leave the door of love and relationship open.

I don't disagree that some parents are harsh, rigid, and place religious institutions in greater priority to their children. However, what gets missed, is that there are some thoughtless, egocentric adult children out their, who take their parents for granted, and consider their resources an entitlement.

[prisonchaplain]

Maybe it would help if I share a nonreligious example, that involves the same dynamics. My wife is from Asia, as some of you know. We met in her country, and sought her parents permission to marry. "Individuals do not marry--families do." To make a long story short, we waited about three years. We demonstrated patience, commitment, and a stability that won everyone over. We've been married 13 years now, and the family is so pleased with us and the grandchildren/nieces we've provided.

We could have been headstrong, complained about "coercive parents," and rushed to fulfill our individualistic ideas of marriage, family and justice. I'm so glad we chose the way of patience and love for the WHOLE family.

I know that there are times when reconciliation and "making everyone happy" is impossible. But, so often, in these situations, there isn't even an effort. All parties are convinced of the rightness of their views, the intransigence of all others, and so, very sad family splintering takes place.

My simple point is that it is not always the harsh religious parents that are to blame in these stories.

[StrawberryFields]

I was raised in a 'less active home' My father had always wanted to walk me down the isle' In high school I met a wonderful guy who then left for two years and went on a mission. When he returned we became engaged. I went to by bishop and told him of my fathers wishes and he said that the Church didn't approve of ring ceremonies (which of course has since changed). I needed to go to my parents who had done so much for me and tell them of the news. Do you think my parents said something like if you do this we will not pay for your wedding? NO, they gave me the finest wedding they could afford. My parents are a treasure to me and I will do the same thing for my children.

[Moksha]

I suppose one could always stand on principle in opposing the wedding plans of your children for some religious reason, but what of the thought that families should be close and retain ties despite some difference of opinion?

Does it make sense to eschew a close relationship with your grandchildren in favor of your stiff-neckedness?

[CrimsonKairos]

It's one thing to say, "You're not part of this family if you marry outside the temple."

It's another thing entirely to say, "You can marry outside the temple and we'll still love you and want you in our lives, but we won't be paying for the wedding expenses."

[Fiannan]

I don't get why you see this as coercion, Maureen.

God promises those who do what He says that they will have His support and blessings forever.

God promises those who don't do what He says that they will have no support and will suffer damnation.

Does that mean God is coercing us?

My dad was raised LDS. My mom became LDS at 18. My mom's parents couldn't attend the temple marriage. There's no lingering bitterness or anger about it.

Insisting that only LDS members can attend a temple marriage is the Lord's way of emphasizing the value of eternal families.

It's one of those paradoxes that seems totally backwards but is true.

Another would be that the death penalty is society's way of affirming the sanctity of human life.

I have to agree. As long as you aren't threatening one of your children then why not use every means to encourage them to go for a temple wedding rather than a civil one? The marriage for time and eternity is so special that it should be held in a special place. And while it may hurt some people when they cannot attend the actual wedding from what I have observed in my life the vast majority understand and respect the decisions of their kids.

[Maureen]

I'm curious why many are focusing on the part where the obviously frustrated parents were refusing to pay for their children's wedding in not a very loving way. That's just part of the article; we don't even know if the children were expecting their parents to pay or if it was just comments made by these couples. Another part of the article said this:

...a friend said her mother had refused to let her get married in her grandmother's wedding dress when she found out it wouldn't be a temple marriage.

If brides and grooms are being blackmailed into doing it the parents way that's coercion.

[CrimsonKairos]

Maureen, methinks you're reading too much into this.

How many girls in their 20's do you know who would cry because they couldn't wear their grandma's wedding dress?

Again, you can call it blackmail or coercion, but God does the same thing with us. If we do what He wishes, He blesses us. If we don't do what He wishes, He punishes us.

Is that blackmail? I hardly think so. It's called consequences.

Now if the parents told their daughter, "Unless you marry in the temple, your father and I are going to lie to your fiance and tell him you have slept around and have STD's," that would be blackmail.

[Maureen]

...My dad was raised LDS. My mom became LDS at 18. My mom's parents couldn't attend the temple marriage. There's no lingering bitterness or anger about it.

Why does there have to be bitterness at all? Why can't children and parents, either LDS or non, come to some happy arrangements to begin with?

Insisting that only LDS members can attend a temple marriage is the Lord's way of emphasizing the value of eternal families.

There's no way to include non-member families into an LDS wedding, so why bother? They're non-members after all, so why would we care how they feel? Is that what you're saying CK?

[CrimsonKairos]

Why does there have to be bitterness at all? Why can't children and parents, either LDS or non, come to some happy arrangements to begin with?

Because non-members can't attend the temple. It's not complicated. Most people would be angry at not being able to attend their child's wedding.

There's no way to include non-member families into an LDS wedding, so why bother? They're non-members after all, so why would we care how they feel? Is that what you're saying CK?

Huh? Maureen, I was saying that the argument so many people use, namely, "If families were so important to your Church, you'd let non-members attend their child's wedding," is a false one. It is precisely because families are important that we emphasize eternal marriages and eternal families and we make no secret of the fact that we believe families can only be forever through priesthood sealings.

[Maureen]

...We could have been headstrong, complained about "coercive parents," and rushed to fulfill our individualistic ideas of marriage, family and justice. I'm so glad we chose the way of patience and love for the WHOLE family.

I know that there are times when reconciliation and "making everyone happy" is impossible. But, so often, in these situations, there isn't even an effort. All parties are convinced of the rightness of their views, the intransigence of all others, and so, very sad family splintering takes place.

My simple point is that it is not always the harsh religious parents that are to blame in these stories.

True, we don't know everything regarding these parental couples in the article. But the article does bring to light that if religion praises the family organization then understanding and respect of all family members, no matter what religious differences exist, should also be part and parcel of that family organization. Your family example is perfect PC, you and your wife were willing to be extremely patient, and in the end, it worked well for everyone involved.

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

if religion praises the family organization then understanding and respect of all family members, no matter what religious differences exist, should also be part and parcel of that family organization.

I'm confused, Maureen. Are you saying that LDS temple attendance standards should be waived out of some mistaken sense of showing respect to all family members?

How is it disrespectful to adhere to your personal beliefs? You can disagree with someone's religious choices without disrespecting them.

[prisonchaplain]

The bottom line question is: Are parents wrong to be emotionally distraught that their children choose to abandon important tenets of the family faith? I say, yes, of course, such is natural. Indeed, one would hope such families can come to terms, and continue to have loving relationships. It's unreasonable, however, to suggest that parents to just be pleasant, and to express no concerns, for the sake of being supportative.

If I am not mistaken, when non-LDS family want to come to an LDS wedding, they are told when and where the reception will be, and in terms of public celebration, the reception is the main event. The Temple ceremony is wholly religious, and would likely make non-members feel out-of-place, anyway (me guesses--obviously haven't been to one).

As to the OP and the actual article--I think the author intentionally used these parents as examples of spiritual boorishness and tackiness. There is probably much more going on those family dynamics. If we knew all, we might indeed side with the children. Additionally, sometimes people are far more dogmatic and rigid when bragging to their fellow church members than they actually are with their children, or their mixed-faith family members.

[CrimsonKairos]

Bee, eye, en, gee, oh, and BINGO was his name-oh!

Right on the money, PC.

[Maureen]

Maureen, methinks you're reading too much into this.

How many girls in their 20's do you know who would cry because they couldn't wear their grandma's wedding dress?

The article didn't mention any girl crying, only that the mother would refuse (some previous arrangements obviously made) her daughter an heirloom wedding dress, if she didn't obey her parents wishes.

Again, you can call it blackmail or coercion, but God does the same thing with us. If we do what He wishes, He blesses us. If we don't do what He wishes, He punishes us.

Coercion is used for controlling. While God has control of everything, he still allows us to make choices. He does not coerce us to obey, he gently persuades us to obey. His love is unconditional, like the prodigal son with his many vices, he was still loved and welcomed home with open arms - he was not disowned.

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

Who's disowning their kids because they're not getting a temple marriage?

Just because you don't pay for a wedding or hand down an heirloom dress doesn't mean you're cutting off your children and never speaking to them again.

God does the exact same thing.

[prisonchaplain]

Coercion is used for controlling. While God has control of everything, he still allows us to make choices. He does not coerce us to obey, he gently persuades us to obey. His love is unconditional, like the prodigal son with his many vices, he was still loved and welcomed home with open arms - he was not disowned.

M.

IMHO, you are confusing "coercion" with consequences. God is full of consequences for poor decisions (i.e. sin). If Israel does right and worships the one true God the people will experience health, wealth, and great wisdom. If they do wrong, and chase foreign gods, sickness, poverty, and ruin await them. COERCION or CONSEQUENCES?

Daughter, whom I love, if you betray God and family, by marrying this non-believer, or by merely getting a civil ceremony (thus snubbing the Church), then, while I will continue to love you, pray for you, and welcome you into my house, I'll not be sponsoring the festivities. If you choose to become one flesh with a fellow believer, under the blessings of God, and within the sanctity of the church, it will be my honor to help as much as I can. BRIBERY?

No, no--I see no coercion here. The writer of the article surely made the parents look like petty controllers, but, in the end, this is but one more encounter that adult children have with the real world. Parents, like everyone else, reward good behavior and punish/withhold blessings in response to poor behavior. The difference is (should be) that the parents will love through and through.

[Maureen]

Who's disowning their kids because they're not getting a temple marriage?

Just because you don't pay for a wedding or hand down an heirloom dress doesn't mean you're cutting off your children and never speaking to them again.

God does the exact same thing.

The article is very limited into the whole scope of these relationships; but from what can be read, there is obviously anger and frustration involved. Families are very complex and it's only normal that that will happen occasionally. I'm just wondering, can anything be done to try to avoid these tug of wars, particularly in an LDS family.

I'm curious CK. If one of your LDS friends were to not get married in the temple would you refuse to go to that friends wedding? And if you yourself were to get married in the temple, how would you make your non-LDS family and friends feel involved and welcomed in the celebrations of your joyous wedding?

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

I'm curious CK. If one of your LDS friends were to not get married in the temple would you refuse to go to that friends wedding?

Of course not. I wouldn't help pay for it, though. :)

And if you yourself were to get married in the temple, how would you make your non-LDS family and friends feel involved and welcomed in the celebrations of your joyous wedding?

That's where the reception comes in. The cake-cutting, the father-daughter dance and vice-versa, the toasts (over non-alcoholic beverages ), etc... If that's not enough for some people, I can't help that nor would I lose sleep over it.