Kirby: Pushing A Couple Into The Temple

[prisonchaplain]

Maureen, if my grandmother (ELCA) had promised to contribute $500 towards my child's baptismal celebratrions, do you think she would still be obligated when I told her that we could surely use that money for a celebration of her baby dedication, since we do not practice infant baptism?

She might indeed send it. Or, she might say, "Oh. Well, if you're not having a baptism, then that's fine. Never mind. Do send me pictures, though."

I would not see that as coercion.

[Maureen]

Maureen, if my grandmother (ELCA) had promised to contribute $500 towards my child's baptismal celebratrions, do you think she would still be obligated when I told her that we could surely use that money for a celebration of her baby dedication, since we do not practice infant baptism?

She might indeed send it. Or, she might say, "Oh. Well, if you're not having a baptism, then that's fine. Never mind. Do send me pictures, though."

I would not see that as coercion.

My children were never baptized as infants so I'm not sure how much a celebration would cost - it would depend on the number of people, food and beverages, I guess. That's a very nice contribution if you ask me. But considering it was an lovely offer, I can't see how coercion plays a part unless you're refusing her from attending the dedication if she doesn't pay up. :)

M.

[prisonchaplain]

My children were never baptized as infants so I'm not sure how much a celebration would cost - it would depend on the number of people, food and beverages, I guess. That's a very nice contribution if you ask me. But considering it was an lovely offer, I can't see how coercion plays a part unless you're refusing her from attending the dedication if she doesn't pay up. :)

M.

It's just a scenario, M. I'm trying to make the point that it is not unreasonable for people to offer to support celebrations surrounding a religious observance, but decline to do so for events that are not of an equivalent spirituality.

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

I'm curious CK. If one of your LDS friends were to not get married in the temple would you refuse to go to that friends wedding?

Of course not. I wouldn't help pay for it, though. :)

You're not going to give them a wedding present?

That's where the reception comes in. The cake-cutting, the father-daughter dance and vice-versa, the toasts (over non-alcoholic beverages ), etc... If that's not enough for some people, I can't help that nor would I lose sleep over it.

May I make a suggestion - a ring ceremony. This is the perfect way to help non-LDS members feel like they are actually celebrating a wedding. Receptions are fine for the receiving lines, food, toasts and dancing, but ceremonies make it feel complete for everyone.

M.

[Palerider]

as I mentioned earlier ...this doesn't just happen in LDS families....

[Maureen]

It's just a scenario, M. I'm trying to make the point that it is not unreasonable for people to offer to support celebrations surrounding a religious observance, but decline to do so for events that are not of an equivalent spirituality.

I understand, it's just a shame that people can't be supportive, just because it's the right thing to do.

as I mentioned earlier ...this doesn't just happen in LDS families....

I take it you're not going to answer the question in Post 29 Pale?

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

May I make a suggestion - a ring ceremony.

I went to my buddy's temple marriage, and the ring ceremony right after at a local church building.

I personally think it's stupid to have a ring ceremony. Everyone knew they were already married. It was kinda' sad, actually, like they had to act in a play to make people happy. What a joke.

Maybe I'll change my tune if I end up marrying a non-member.

[Palerider]

forcing someone to do something is wrong....it happens in religion alot...my opinion.....and for whats its worth.....my oldest daughter and her hubby were married in a LDS Church ceremony first and I had the privelage of officiating at the Wedding........maybe I should have refused to pay for the wedding because 6 months before this wedding my 2nd oldest daughter got married....2 weddings in a year....OUCH!!!!

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>

May I make a suggestion - a ring ceremony.

I went to my buddy's temple marriage, and the ring ceremony right after at a local church building.

I personally think it's stupid to have a ring ceremony. Everyone knew they were already married. It was kinda' sad, actually, like they had to act in a play to make people happy. What a joke.

Maybe I'll change my tune if I end up marrying a non-member.

by that theory my temple sealing would have been an act or pay - my husband an I were already married when we were sealed.

A Ring Exchanging is the chance to declare your loveto your friends. I loved both my civil and temple ceremony andboth had their place.

Charley

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

May I make a suggestion - a ring ceremony.

I went to my buddy's temple marriage, and the ring ceremony right after at a local church building.

I personally think it's stupid to have a ring ceremony. Everyone knew they were already married. It was kinda' sad, actually, like they had to act in a play to make people happy. What a joke.

Maybe I'll change my tune if I end up marrying a non-member.

That's too bad you feel that way.

My nephew and his wife had the most lovely ring ceremony. He dressed in his kilt, the bride was presented with her scottish sash, there were bagpipes. The couple walked down the aisle together, so of course they weren't pretending, we knew they were married. They were exchanging rings and presenting themselves to all their families and friends (of all religions) that they were very happy to be united together.

It was a lovely way to bring a wonderful diverse family together for a wedding celebration.

M.

[the Ogre]

I have two stories to add to this. I'm adding them because they apply. First, I would like to thank you M for Kirby's article. I love the guy. I have three of his books. He's a hoot. Knowing that, there is a lot of tongue in cheek in anything he writes and so it is hard to know what is fictionalized; not knowing that can lead to a lot of deep reading where none was intended. But then, an artist looses control of the work once it is published.

Story #1. Two months ago, right before I joined this forum, I ran into one of the young men I know in my ward. He was walking alone in the Univ. Mall. He came up to me and asked if I would go to his wedding. I said yes before remembering that he was supposed to be getting ready for his mission. We were talking in Journeys as I bought a pair of vans when it hit me. I asked him how come is parents didn't send me an invitation, I do home-teach them. He told me his parents were ashamed of the wedding and were not talking to anyone about it. I then began to think and I remembered that I hadn't seen his mom in church for quite a while. I didn't make a big deal about it. We talked more about other things and I found out that his then fiancé’s parents had kicked her out and that she was living in the apartment they would share after the marriage. The ceremony was small. I went, as did many of the Elders in our ward and many of the Elders in the single’s ward he was attending and some of their friends from Snow College. We had fun (as much fun as can be had at the wakes LDS have for non-temple weddings) and I've run into them again. The wedding was practically free and the reception was paid for another ward member and in their back yard.

The wedding was because they had sex while he was getting ready for his mission and then got pregnant. I still home teach his parents, but his mom has had a hard time talking to me. I took many pictures and burned them to a CD for them. They are still ashamed of their son.

Story #2. Nineteen years ago, I got married in South Korea to the woman who is now my ex. My parents couldn't come because they were raising seven other kids and getting ready to send my brother on his mission. I did not get married in the temple (I was a drunk and my ex was not yet a member and very pregnant [Andy was born four months later]). My parents were not very supportive at first, but then I think it is function of my dad being angry that I did not follow the Life-Plan he had in mind for me and my brothers (I wasn't supposed to get married until I was 26 or so) instead of his membership in the church. I paid for the wedding and the reception, but Koreans give cash instead gifts and so we got back everything we spent and then some for dishes and stuff. My mom and dad are fairly supportive and were hurt when my ex left. My in-laws were as well and stay in contact with me and the kids as their daughter has not contacted us after she left.

Temple-wedding are very important. My family has been blessed by the sealing we received in the Provo temple and while sealings do not carry the same weight in Utah society, it means the same to the L-rd and the church and as we were far more worthy of the sealing then we ever would be for the Temple Wedding we never could have gotten (I was exploring the tastes of various beverages from Mexico and Russia at the time) it turns out to be the better option.

Marriages are between families, but those getting married rarely know that. I love my kids and I want to be friends with them when they finally leave home. If that is what I want, then I need to close to them regardless of their choices and I know no better way to piss off a child then to refuse to support their wedding regardless of location.

[Adomini22]

I like that statement.

[Palerider]

too many families want to argue about everything....and it seems it can get worse when all are adults.

I love the Kirby articles as well......it seems like 6 months ago he wrote an article about a friend of his getting called as the Bishop of his ward and he opposed the sustaining. He said he did this because he was trying to help his friend out.....LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[CrimsonKairos]

In the end, I'm selfish I guess.

The marriage is between the bride and groom, not between the bride and her father-in-law, etc...

If the family has a problem, why in the world would the bride and groom lose any sleep over it. They're starting a new family, and if their old family is so close-minded and cranky that they throw a fit about temple sealings, so be it.

A marriage is between a man, a woman, and the Lord. Period. Everyone else needs to grow up, drop the drama, and act their age, not their shoe size.

p.s. My oldest brother left the LDS Church and is now Eastern Orthodox Catholic. He married a Methodist. My mom couldn't attend the weddings (they were in Hawaii, we live in WA) because my dad was still in horrible shape from his accident, but I went with one of my older brothers. In addition, my LDS aunt and uncle flew down from Alaska to represent my parents there. We didn't shun him because he chose another path. I participated in the Methodist ceremony, as well as the Catholic ceremony the next day. I didn't feel stupid or superior standing there, knowing they were missing out on temple blessings. I supported them. It's not too much to ask that the respect and support be reciprocated, even if that means you can't attend a relative's temple marriage.

[Maureen]

CK, you have an almost depressing way of looking at weddings and marriage. Here's some food for thought:

A spouse not only marries his/her beloved, but also marries into the beloved’s family. While the newlyweds are in the process of developing their own nuclear family, they cannot escape the influence and impact, direct and indirect, of the spouse’s original family. Each spouse brings a familial history and array of familial expectations. Spouses marry into a family....

...Overall may I suggest a healthy balance in relations with one’s in-laws. The word “interdependence” better than independence describes our human relationships. We need each other. We benefit from our relationships with each other. We want our relationships to be characterized by freedom, mutual love, peace and joy. Relationships ought not to be smothering, overwhelming, or excessively demanding. Go into marriage with your eyes, mind, heart and soul wide open. Spouses marry not only the beloved, but also marry into the beloved’s extended family.

(Marriage & In-laws by

Rev. Vincent O’Malley, C.M

M. :)

[the Ogre]

CK, you have an almost depressing way of looking at weddings and marriage. Here's some food for thought . . .

Its okay M, he did say he's never been married.

[CrimsonKairos]

Maureen, is this thread about you not being able to attend a family member's temple wedding? I seem to recall you saying your in-law or something is LDS.

As for my view about marriage, if its depressing to you then I guess it's a good thing we're not married.

As for Gabelma's claim that her temple ceremony was just acting in a play since she'd been married civilly first. That's a false statement, Gab. You hadn't been sealed yet when you went to be married in the temple following your civil marriage. You went through something new, and gained a new status (sealed).

Yet for someone who's married in the temple, and is both sealed by the priesthood and married according to the civil law too, a ring ceremony afterwards is nothing but an act, conferring no new status or position on either the husband or wife.

[Iggy]

As for Gabelma's claim that her temple ceremony was just acting in a play since she'd been married civilly first. That's a false statement, Gab. You hadn't been sealed yet when you went to be married in the temple following your civil marriage. You went through something new, and gained a new status (sealed).

Yet for someone who's married in the temple, and is both sealed by the priesthood and married according to the civil law too, a ring ceremony afterwards is nothing but an act, conferring no new status or position on either the husband or wife.

That isn't what Gabema said, you said it. She was responding to your post to Maureen.

(CrimsonKairos @ Aug 6 2007, 05:57 PM)

Maureen @ Aug 6 2007, 04:48 PM siad: May I make a suggestion - a ring ceremony.

CrimsonKairos said: I went to my buddy's temple marriage, and the ring ceremony right after at a local church building.

I personally think it's stupid to have a ring ceremony. Everyone knew they were already married. It was kinda' sad, actually, like they had to act in a play to make people happy. What a joke.

Maybe I'll change my tune if I end up marrying a non-member.

Gabelma said: by that theory my temple sealing would have been an act or pay - my husband an I were already married when we were sealed.

A Ring Exchanging is the chance to declare your loveto your friends. I loved both my civil and temple ceremony andboth had their place.

Charley

[CrimsonKairos]

Iggy, you're confusing the issue. I was showing Gabelma how erroneous her application of my "theory" was. She did say it. She may not have meant it as her personal opinion, but she was advancing the assertion to defeat my position so I responded to her.

[Iggy]

Iggy, you're confusing the issue. I was showing Gabelma how erroneous her application of my "theory" was. She did say it. She may not have meant it as her personal opinion, but she was advancing the assertion to defeat my position so I responded to her.

How am I confusing the issue? Show me where she said it okay. I have looked and all I found was that response to you in which she actually quoted you.

[CrimsonKairos]

Iggy, you just quoted her two posts ago. Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Gabelma said: by that theory my temple sealing would have been an act or pay - my husband an I were already married when we were sealed.

[Iggy]

Iggy, you just quoted her two posts ago. Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Gabelma said: by that theory my temple sealing would have been an act or pay - my husband an I were already married when we were sealed.

You are the one being obtuse.

You stated:

I went to my buddy's temple marriage, and the ring ceremony right after at a local church building.

I personally think it's stupid to have a ring ceremony. Everyone knew they were already married. It was kinda' sad, actually, like they had to act in a play to make people happy. What a joke. (Emphasis mine.)

Gabelma then quoted you and said:

by that theory my temple sealing would have been an act or pay - my husband an I were already married when we were sealed.</span>

She was saying that according to your theory her temple sealing then would have been an act or play because she and her husband were civily married prior to their Temple Sealing (per the law in the UK) She never said that it was an act or play - she said that according to your theory it was.

She clearly stated that:

<span style="color:#CC0000">A Ring Exchanging is the chance to declare your loveto your friends. I loved both my civil and temple ceremony and both had their place.

That certainly doesn't sound like she feels that either one, the Temple Sealing or the Ring Exchanging is an act or a play.

You are the only one who has declared that your friends Ring Exchanging after a Temple Sealing was like an act or play.

[CrimsonKairos]

Okay MrsS, let's get this settled quickly before we waste more time and space in this thread. I'll just have to quote myself since apparently you didn't read it carefully enough the first time.

Iggy, you're confusing the issue. I was showing Gabelma how erroneous her application of my "theory" was. She did say it. She may not have meant it as her personal opinion, but she was advancing the assertion to defeat my position so I responded to her.

I clearly admitted that Gabelma didn't personally believe her temple marriage was a play.

I clearly said her application or interpretation of my "theory" was false.

I clearly admitted that I didn't take Gabelma's original post about this to mean she believed it personally.

What is the deal with you tonight? And why are you speaking for Gab anyway? One thing I dislike is people taking offense on behalf of others. Let's just let it go now, shall we? Thanks.

[Snow]

I guess my reason for posting the article was mainly to see if others on this board have also come across this type of attitude or action when it comes to a difference in religious choices. A temple marriage is important in Mormon culture and religion. But the family organization is also important. How can a each individual member of a family respect and love each other and at the same time be accepting of each members individual moral choices, even though those choices may not meet everyones expectations. Lets say the couple wishing to get married is LDS but for whatever reason do not wish to marry in the temple. Is it possible for the parents to be disappointed of course, but still be respectful of their children's agency to accept their decision? And carry on with celebrating and preparing for a happy occasion?

M.

Yes - but that wasn't you original point. It seems you not only wanted the parents to respect their children's decisions, you also wanted the parents to pay money for the children's decisions.

Besides which, it the childrens decision was to deliberately have children out of wedlock and raise them on a free-love, survivalist commune in Wyoming, should the parents also respect their decision?

[bunnzy]

I am new to this website and these forums, but am not getting a good vibe from all the 'nit-picking' going on.

Whatever happened to the 11th article of Faith?

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and ALLOW ALL MEN THE SAME PRIVILEGE, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I expect that includes our own children - without withholding any aid we could possibly give them, including financial. Its only money. They are our family!