Reports of new church policies re: same sex couples and children


MrShorty
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As members of the church this new policy reflects on all of us. I do not feel like this reflects well upon the members. This is the first time I have ever felt shame as a member of the church. I know and care greatly about many who will be hurt my this new policy. It also gives further ammunition to ex-Mormons and people who have guilt for not living the gospel as they should. What about those who question the church being Christian?

The wheat and the tares? I don't believe in following blindly. I will be giving this topic great prayer and pondering. Currently this policy does not feel like it is rooted in the pure love of Christ.

For those of you who don't know me, I have been a member of this site since 2003. I have not posted much for the last few years and the format has changed greatly. I have been richly blessed through my membership in the church and have written many posts in support. I'm am just shocked by the recent announcements, especially after our leaders have preached love and tolerance to those who do not live as we do.

Feeling Heartbroken, StrawberryFields

Edited by StrawberryFields
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What I mean by 'punishment' is that if a child of that age has a desire to be baptised, and his or her parents  allow their child to attend church, primary, etc, (with active relatives like grandparents, for example), then they will most likely feel punished by having baptism withheld.

 

 

 

 

Or they can learn through the Spirit (and despite not having the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit can still inspire and teach them) to endure disappointment and feelings of rejection, remain faithful to commandments and wait on the Lord to receive blessings.  We can ache for and love those children, but this life is a test--and learning through the Spirit, enduring and remaining faithful during trials and waiting to receive blessings (while receiving other blessings along the way) is a test for this life. 

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Why do people think and assume that the church is here to remove trials and test from our lives?  It is not.  It is here to support the work of God... and that work is to see if we will do all that god has command.  Thus it is not going to remove test and trails (and might even create some if it is the will of God) it will however point us to the way through them (faith, prayer, scripture study etc.)

 

If you have a child that has gone apostate, you have a bit trial in your life. (Much like Alma had with Alma the Younger)  One of those more then likely is to accept the fact that they have gone apostate.  The church making that very clear undoubtedly make this feel harder to be in denial about it, but at the same time should also make it clear Gods command on the matter.

 

As for grandkids...  Where does it say anywhere that our trials and test are going to be withheld until we are adults?  The best we get is until 8 our sins go to our parents if they did not teach us correctly, and that we are only accountable for as much as we understand.  I think 8 year olds can understand more then we give them credit for... And guess what the parent/grandparent that is active and taking the child to church has that the job of helping them understand.  Is it easy... again see my first point.  It seems very clear that it is designed to be a test, a trial to see which direction you are going to go.

 

The church will not take that from you...  If you want to blame the church for "setting the whole thing up" well you might be right but then see my first paragraph.

Edited by estradling75
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Bottom line is it's done.

I am sure it was not an easy decision to come to.

I am sure much prayer and contemplation and discussion went into it.

 

You have to either accept the Church and the decision, 

or gather your chicks and leave.

There ARE other churches that are more accepting to gay members.

If people don't like the rules, just like in the Boy Scouts, they have the option to join a different club.

 

No need to lose any more sleep over it, really.

Just watch and wait and see where it goes from here.

I imagine all the drama will die down - or I guess I hope it will.

Edited by AnnieCarvalho
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Why do people think and assume that the church is here to remove trials and test from our lives?  It is not.  It is here to support the work of God... and that work is to see if we will do all that god has command.  Thus it is not going to remove test and trails (and might even create some if it is the will of God) it will however point us to the way through them (faith, prayer, scripture study etc.)

 

Right

 

If you have a child that has gone apostate, you have a bit trial in your life. (Much like Alma had with Alma the Younger)  One of those more then likely is to accept the fact that they have gone apostate.  The church making that very clear undoubtedly make this feel harder to be in denial about it, but at the same time should also make it clear Gods command on the matter.

 

Well, maybe not quite so simple, but for the most part, agreed. A heterosexual child choosing to 'go apostate' is one thing. In the end, if homosexuality is found scientifically to have a biological undeniable basis, it will be interesting to see where it leads. That said, I agree the person has a choice whether or not to have sexual relations - so in that way they are choosing. It hurts my heart to think that God would create people and their test would be to have to live alone forever without a help mate, abstain from the blessing of sexual relations, but it's not beyond possibility. 

 

As for grandkids...  Where does it say anywhere that our trials and test are going to be withheld until we are adults?  The best we get is until 8 our sins go to our parents if they did not teach us correctly, and that we are only accountable for as much as we understand.  I think 8 year olds can understand more then we give them credit for... And guess what the parent/grandparent that is active and taking the child to church has that the job of helping them understand.  Is it easy... again see my first point.  It seems very clear that it is designed to be a test, a trial to see which direction you are going to go.

 

The church will not take that from you...  If you want to blame the church for "setting the whole thing up" well you might be right but then see my first paragraph.

 

I'm not blaming anyone.

I'm just saying this policy killed two birds with one stone.

Brilliant, if you think about it.

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Of course not Leah. But it would have been the same kind of discrimination based on "the sins" of the parents.

So you made a claim that you knew was dishonest in order to prove that you were "right".

Your second statement simply further proves that you have no comprehension of the policy. Or of a number of other things. But people who make dishonest claims aren't really interested in the truth of things, are they?

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To be fair, if you compare and contrast these two paragraphs and consider, how many children are in a joint custody situation where one of their parents is a faithful member and the other is living with their new gay lover? The child is still, thereby, raised by a gay parent living in that relationship, and thereby disqualified from baptism. That has got to be a ridiculously hard thing for the faithful parent. Now my child can't be baptized because my spouse left me for their gay lover? Are you kidding me? <== sort of thing.

 

That's a valid concern, but I think the Church's policy merely makes de jure what was already de facto.  A divorced parent who baptizes their child into a religion that teaches that the other divorced (gay) parent is "living in sin" and must divorce his/her partner in order to get right with God, is creating a claim for parental alienation which could easily result in loss of custodial rights.

 

Harsh realities like this are a big part of why the Church fought tooth-and-nail against gay marriage in the first place.  Because the Church simply can't be in the position of putting underaged children into a covenant whose ramifications are that their legally-married parents must divorce.  We knew then that for all practical purposes, conversion/retention of these children would be well-nigh impossible.

 

I can't speak for random strangers that I don't know on the internet, but I do personally know several people who are struggling with this....and it is because it directly affects them or someone they love.  

 

Granted; but to the degree that these people passively accepted other events/decisions that had much more trauma on those children (a parent's divorce for the sake of pursuing a homosexual relationship, a child's adoption by a gay couple . . . )--the most charitable thing I can say is that there's some real myopia going on there, and I hope they can work past it.

 

 

 

Easy, because polygamists have their own church and have no desire to attend our "fallen" meetings anyway.

 

I don't deny the reality of those feelings; but given that baptism is a covenant rather than a simple rite of passage into a social club--these feelings are (to put it bluntly) a tail that should not wag the "dog" of Church policy.

 

 

 

There are gay couples (I don't know them personally, but I have friends who do) who want their children to be raised in the church.  This will likely surprise you (I admit I was surprised), but it's really not so hard to understand.  

 

Oh, sure . . . but with conditions.  They will wail piteously in the bloggosphere--and, eventually, in the courts--every time their kid comes home having had another lesson about the Proclamation on the Family or the Law of Chastity.  They will make smug assertions about how the "rising generation" will be more "tolerant", and the Church's reversal on the sinfulness of gay sex is only a matter of time.  

 

They don't want their kid raised in the covenant of Mormonism; they want their kid raised in the society of Mormonism, with the hope that someday the covenant will be fundamentally eviscerated.  They don't understand that the society is merely a product of the covenant, and that to diminish the one is to diminish the other.  Like Guinevere and Lancelot, their desire to completely possess the thing they love will lead to the destruction of the very attributes that made the thing attractive in the first place.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Guest MormonGator

Something I think that is important to remember: 

No matter what, Joseph Smith Jr is still a prophet. The book of Mormon is still true. I can't leave the church because of those reasons, no matter what I feel. 

Just saying. 

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As members of the church this new policy reflects on all of us. I do not feel like this reflects well upon the members. This is the first time I have ever felt shame as a member of the church. I know and care greatly about many who will be hurt my this new policy. It also gives further ammunition to ex-Mormons and people who have guilt for not living the gospel as they should. What about those who question the church being Christian?

The wheat and the tares? I don't believe in following blindly. I will be giving this topic great prayer and pondering. Currently this policy does not feel like it is rooted in the pure love of Christ.

For those of you who don't know me, I have been a member of this site since 2003. I have not posted much for the last few years and the format has changed greatly. I have been richly blessed through my membership in the church and have written many posts in support. I'm am just shocked by the recent announcements, especially after our leaders have preached love and tolerance to those who do not live as we do.

Feeling Heartbroken, StrawberryFields

 

I'm not sure I agree with everything you said, but I do feel your heartache.

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So you made a claim that you knew was dishonest in order to prove that you were "right".

Your second statement simply further proves that you have no comprehension of the policy. Or of a number of other things. But people who make dishonest claims aren't really interested in the truth of things, are they?

Leah, to you make a habit of running off, making false accusations, when you don't understand. How arrogant. Self righteousness is one of the greatest things that cause damage to the church. It pushes people away, because it's so unlike Christ. I have read the policy change in the handbook and watched the official Video statement from the church.

To further explain...

I was making a comparison about these innocent children who will be affected by this new policy. I was also using a very personal life experience of mine. My life could have turned out very differently without The Holy Ghost, the gift given following baptism. I was given fabulous parents and a wonderful home. I was shown how the world lives, up close and personal. I had every opportunity to choose the party life, but because of the influence of the gospel in my life, at a young age, I chose another path. Children need the blessings of the ordinances even more when they are not witnessing the gospel in action at home. I don't currently believe that the new policy is in the best interest of the children. Maybe you can not place yourself in the shoes of the children who will be affected, but I can.

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This is something I feel very passionately about. I am grateful for the blessings of the temple. Both of my parents have past on and I was able go to the temple, with my own children. Together, we were able to complete some ordinance work that I could only dream of as a child! This rates up there with one of the greatest of my life! I'm grateful for the gospel in my life. Truly grateful.

Edited by StrawberryFields
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I was making a comparison about these innocent children who will be affected by this new policy. I was also using a very personal life experience of mine. My life could have turned out very differently without The Holy Ghost, the gift given following baptism. I was given fabulous parents and a wonderful home. I was shown how the world lives, up close and personal. I had every opportunity to choose the party life, but because of the influence of the gospel in my life, at a young age, I chose another path. Children need the blessings of the ordinances even more when they are not witnessing the gospel in action at home. I don't currently believe that the new policy is in the best interest of the children. Maybe you can not place yourself in the shoes of the children who will be affected, but I can.

 

 

While I have no doubt your pain is very real...  The whole homosexual movement has been based on "lets stop other people from getting hurt"  While that is all noble and good to a point...  It stops being all noble and good when it is used to justify rebellion against God and condemning yourself (and others).  The scripture clearly state that pain and the division of families is a side effect of the Word of God. So we can not make it all go away

 

So while you might think you are being all Christ-like in wanting the eases pain and suffering, just remember there is a line, a line the Church is drawing very clearly.  The choice is yours on what side of the line you end up on.

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Just another perspective to consider (perhaps to help you see the Christ-like meaning here)....I grew up in a less active family too. I worried constantly about my family not coming to church. I so wanted them to enjoy those blessings! You know what I mean right?

Now was there ever a time when you feared your parents would get divorced? When I was 21, for a short time, I refused to return my mom's phone calls because I was afraid she was going to tell me that her and my second step-dad were going to get divorced. I didn't want that. And I was 21! It is usually* even harder for younger children.

Now consider if we had been children of homosexual marriages....not only could we not wish for our families to become active and be sealed, but we would know that divorce was the only way...breaking up the family....was the only way our parents could repent and live righteously. On the other hand, a child who believes in the gospel, is going to have to deal wit this dilemma whether or not they are baptized....but perhaps this will help give you an idea where this policy might be coming from.

*usually....I say usually because in cases of abuse children might be HAPPY for divorce. This was the case for me when my mom divorced my first step-father, who was abusive. I was thrilled!

Thank you for sharing your very personal experience. I truly appreciate your reaching out to me in a similar manner.

I never felt that my parents would divorce. That would be an terrible feeling to have lingering overhead.

The painful part for me being active in the church is the teasing and ridicule from other children who didn't smell like cigarettes. My parents ached for me and even when they came to church in support of me, they felt harshly judged by some of the more self righteous members who would look down their nose at them, because they knew they didn't live the Word of Wisdom. This was the difficult part of not having the gospel influence in my home. But, it made me strong with compassion and understanding. As I taught those in primary and young women, I would give special attention to the "underdog". Do I regret the way I grew up, including the pain and conflict? Not a chance! ;-)

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The painful part for me being active in the church is the teasing and ridicule from other children who didn't smell like cigarettes. My parents ached for me and even when they came to church in support of me, they felt harshly judged by some of the more self righteous members who would look down their nose at them, because they knew they didn't live the Word of Wisdom. This was the difficult part of not having the gospel influence in my home. But, it made me strong with compassion and understanding. As I taught those in primary and young women, I would give special attention to the "underdog". Do I regret the way I grew up, including the pain and conflict? Not a chance! ;-)

 

Hmm  interesting...  A lot of people seem to be advocating removing the very challenges and difficulties, for others, that made you strong and the person you are today.  It would seem that your personal experience is another reason the church should do exactly what it is currently doing.  Yes I know not all kids will make it though like you did, but then not everyone is going to make it through life the same way either.

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Right, and this problem has been nipped in the bud by the decision.

Rather than be treated as second-class citizens, same-sex couples will leave.

 

Now you and your kids can be comfortable and not have to deal with homosexuals, at least in church.

 

But in the REAL world, they'll see it, have questions, and you will have to deal with it.

And God forbid, one of your own children turns out gay - then you REALLY have to deal with it

 

There is a time and a place to deal with everything.  I don't tell my 5 year old how babies are made at 5, I wait until the proper time and place and then talk to them about the birds and bees.  And quite frankly there are a lot of things in this world that they shouldn't have to deal with that they will. My kids will know long beforehand where I stand on the issue. And in issues of right and wrong, morality-I'm very upfront and very stern about my expectations. I love them, but love doesn't give them the excuse to do things that are wrong.  They hit a sibling, destroy something, lie, etc. I discipline them. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them. They can stew in their own juices and reap the consequences of what they sow. One might complain about mercy.  I have learned in my life that one does not appreciate mercy until one learns what the demands of justice is like. Once justice is fully comprehended, one has a much better appreciate for what mercy really does and what it means. If they ever went this way, I would treat it the same way. There are certain consequences to our actions and one must own up to those consequences.  

 

But there is that wonderful thing in the real world called freedom.  I can choose with whom to associate with or with whom to not associate.  In my life, I do not choose to associate with homosexuals. I don't watch movies or t.v. shows filled with homosexual themes-it just doesn't add any redeeming quality to my life.  I personally want to associate with other individuals be it persons or other families who hold similar values to me.  I don't want to have cook-outs with individuals who's lifestyle is so drastically different than mine . . .for what purpose?  I'm not going to convert them to my point of view-they aren't going to convert me, so why associate-so I can talk about the weather, sports, etc.  I've got better things to do with my time.

 

One of my main social areas is in Church. Church should be the last place where people have to deal with this junk. This type of a lifestyle it isn't like someone being a hippie, or having tattoos, or being a different political view or having long-hair or looking different, being divorced, living out of wedlock, etc.  It is fundamentally a different way of living. Living and embracing a homosexual lifestyle is so completely at odds with what the Church teaches one can not merge the two. To merge them would be to fundamentally change one or the other. I personally don't need that type of conflict in my life nor in the lives of my children.  

 

To all the parents that have to deal with this with their kids-my goodness what a horrible tough trail to go through.  I've had trials in my life-and as painful as a few of them have been-I would take them in a heartbeat over this type of a trial. This would be a tremendously hard trail that I would only be able to get through with the help of God.

 

Having said that-had the Church gone the other route, I would have been upset-like I am on the BSA decision; but in the end I have faith that men of God lead the church and while they do make mistakes-it is His Church.

Edited by yjacket
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Hmm interesting... A lot of people seem to be advocating removing the very challenges and difficulties, for others, that made you strong and the person you are today. It would seem that your personal experience is another reason the church should do exactly what it is currently doing. Yes I know not all kids will make it though like you did, but then not everyone is going to make it through life the same way either.

Thank you for understanding my point. I have always held a great deal of respect for you.

In another post you mentioned that the church has drawn the line. I totally understand that. That's why I'm struggling so much.

Although, I don't personally understand same sex attraction, I have compassion for those who do. It's especially difficult in Utah where everyone is privy to see it happening in their neighborhoods. One of my dearest friends has a son who went on a mission, he accomplished a successful mission. A few years after his mission he moved in with his partner. Something very similar happened to with an work associate of my husbands.

In my 50 plus years I have seen many changes in policies in the church. I remember about 10 years ago when the changed the mission requirements with "raising the bar". That took the wind out of the sails of many people. Later, they lessened the height of the bar.

Yes, we will be greatly tested here on earth. Sometimes our faith might have cause to be shaken. I agree, I have a big decision to make. Can my faith withstand? Are my roots deep enough? Right now I feel shock and heartbreak. Some sins are just more obvious than others. Everyone sins. Jesus taught us that who is without sin, cast the first stone.

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That's a valid concern, but I think the Church's policy merely makes de jure what was already de facto. A divorced parent who baptizes their child into a religion that teaches that the other divorced (gay) parent is "living in sin" and must divorce his/her partner in order to get right with God, is creating a claim for parental alienation which could easily result in loss of custodial rights.

Harsh realities like this are a big part of why the Church fought tooth-and-nail against gay marriage in the first place. Because the Church simply can't be in the position of putting underaged children into a covenant whose ramifications are that their legally-married parents must divorce. We knew then that for all practical purposes, conversion/retention of these children would be well-nigh impossible.

My point tends toward sympathetic rather than legalistic.

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