Babylon, I love thee


Vort
 Share

Recommended Posts

Babylon was the greatest city in the world.

 

That description does not do it justice, however. Babyon was enormous, the first known city to exceed 200,000 people in population. That's 200,000 people in one 2200-acre place, without indoor plumbing or automation. And it was massively powerful; at its peak, no person, nation, or army could hope to compete with it.

 

But its size and military might were merely the most obvious characteristics. Babylon was a place of great learning, far and away the most brilliant, progressive, enlightened city of the earth in its time. And it was cosmopolitan on a scale that even we today would find impressive; there is a reason the "tower of Babel" signifies a mixing or melting pot of various languages and cultures.Hammurabi's code is still touted as one of the great civilizing documents in all of human history, despite its rather harsh edge in today's judgment. Thousands of years later, we still remember Babylon's fabled Hanging Gardens as one of the wonders of the ancient world.

 

In terms of freedom, the citizens of Babylon were probably the "freest" people of their time, in the way we use that term today. The people had opportunities, the land was prosperous, and their strength made them impenetrable. If we had to go back in time and live during that period and could scout our prospects before pulling the time machine lever, I expect that many, perhaps most, of us would consider ourselves lucky if we got to go to Babylon.

 

In short, the closest modern approximation we have today of the glory of the Babylon of nearly four thousand years ago is...the United States of America.

 

Yet look how the Bible vilifies Babylon. It was the mother of whores. It was the destroyer of souls. It was the place most feared by the people of God, not primarily because of its military might, but because of its seductive power. It stood in opposition to all that God wanted of his people.

 

I think this is worth meditating on, especially as we consider the forces acting inside and outside the US and the so-called "western world". We would do well to learn to see our own civilization a bit more as God sees it, and not be too dazzled with our brilliance and technical achievement.

 

We are Babylon 2000. That should be a sobering thought for all of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An argument could be made that America is like or is becoming like Babylon of old.
But it wasn't always like that.

Crime might have had higher rates in the past (one form of sin), but the defining feature is the acceptance or even embrace of sin. 
I wonder how that thought would hold up in comparison to Babylon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Babylon was the greatest city in the world.

 

That description does not do it justice, however. Babyon was enormous, the first known city to exceed 200,000 people in population. That's 200,000 people in one 2200-acre place, without indoor plumbing or automation. And it was massively powerful; at its peak, no person, nation, or army could hope to compete with it.

 

But its size and military might were merely the most obvious characteristics. Babylon was a place of great learning, far and away the most brilliant, progressive, enlightened city of the earth in its time. And it was cosmopolitan on a scale that even we today would find impressive; there is a reason the "tower of Babel" signifies a mixing or melting pot of various languages and cultures.Hammurabi's code is still touted as one of the great civilizing documents in all of human history, despite its rather harsh edge in today's judgment. Thousands of years later, we still remember Babylon's fabled Hanging Gardens as one of the wonders of the ancient world.

 

In terms of freedom, the citizens of Babylon were probably the "freest" people of their time, in the way we use that term today. The people had opportunities, the land was prosperous, and their strength made them impenetrable. If we had to go back in time and live during that period and could scout our prospects before pulling the time machine lever, I expect that many, perhaps most, of us would consider ourselves lucky if we got to go to Babylon.

 

In short, the closest modern approximation we have today of the glory of the Babylon of nearly four thousand years ago is...the United States of America.

 

Yet look how the Bible vilifies Babylon. It was the mother of whores. It was the destroyer of souls. It was the place most feared by the people of God, not primarily because of its military might, but because of its seductive power. It stood in opposition to all that God wanted of his people.

 

I think this is worth meditating on, especially as we consider the forces acting inside and outside the US and the so-called "western world". We would do well to learn to see our own civilization a bit more as God sees it, and not be too dazzled with our brilliance and technical achievement.

 

We are Babylon 2000. That should be a sobering thought for all of us.

 

Thanks for the exciting trip down Mesopotamian lane, a truly incredible ancient culture that I freely admit I am in awe of.  But your analogy between Babylon and our western cultural achievements IS a sobering thought, especially in light of scripture.

 

I used to spend a lot of time reading the Book of Revelation, but stopped because even though I know it is symbolic, it gave me the heebie-jeebies over an end-time that I have zero control over. One example...

 

We are warned that people will find the accomplishments of Babylon incredibly seductive, and most chillingly: 

 

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived...And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (Revelation 18:23-24).

 

This brings to mind for me the sophistry of certain 'great men' today who deny god's existence and yet are feted and adored by the western world. Will the blood of prophets and saints be shed in the future as a result of this I wonder, and at the very least, does this scripture symbolise persecution of the saints in the end times by our modern day Babylon?

Edited by lagarthaaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vort,

 

While I appreciate this knee-jerk comparison, I don't agree with it.  You seem to equate the US to Babylon because of the good and therefore assume it must also epitomize the bad.

 

Let's look again at the similarities:

 

Good: I believe these are valid comparisons.

 

1) The mightiest nation on earth.

2) The height of technology and wealth -- standard of living.

3) Freedom.

4) Its system of laws. (Hammurabi's Code v. Constitution)

5) Melting Pot.

6) Wonders of the world.

 

Interesting: Opinions?

 

Tower of Babel v. Twin Towers.

 

Bad:For this let us consult with the ever revered :pope: St. McConkie  :cool:

 

“In prophetic imagery, Babylon is the...

 

...world with all its carnality and wickedness.

...degenerate social order created by lustful men who love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.

...almighty governmental power that takes the saints of God into captivity;

...false churches that build false temples and worship false gods;

...every false philosophy … that leads men away from God and salvation.

...false and degenerate religion in all its forms and branches.

...communistic system that seeks to destroy the freedom of people in all nations and kingdoms

...secret combinations that seek for power and unrighteous dominion over the souls of men.

...every evil and wicked and ungodly thing in our whole social structure”

(McConkie,Millennial Messiah, 424).

 

Babylon today is every nation on earth.  I'd daresay the US used to be the last place on earth that resisted these things.  I also believe we've lost that claim on several of these items.  HOWEVER, I truly believe that despite what you see from Hollywood, or in the news, or in Washington, we as a people still hold to these values a lot more than you'd think.  

 

We as a people (the US) are still the last best hope for Zion to flourish.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem I think with Babylon (the real one not the symbolic one it became) and the US is the one the Book of Mormon repeatedly shows us.  We prosper, we become great.  Then we ignore and turn our backs on the principles and ideals that got us there.  We descend into the pride and lusts of our hearts thinking we made ourselves great so whatever we want must be ok.

 

While I will admit I don't much about how the real world Babylon got where it did and how exactly it failed, but the failure mode I suggests is spiritual Babylon to a T.  And I do see signs of US heading that way.   In all honesty I see the US as splitting up into two factions.  The part that joins Babylon and the part that joins Zion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With regards to the title:

 

I was visiting a lady in California who asked me where I was from. I told her I was from the South. "Oh," she said, "then you'll know what this is." She showed me one of her paintings of a tree-lined street. Something like this:

 

5222294712_219c851570_z.jpg

 

"Yes," I replied, "That's spanish moss." I found myself getting homesick when she interrupted my thoughts. "You know it kills the trees."

 

I was a little embarrassed (and still am) that I was feeling nostalgic for a parasite*. Moralize how you will.

 

 

* I know that it's really not a parasite, and doesn't directly kill the tree. But it greatly weakens it and prevents it from getting full sunlight, so the point stands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of you don't get out much.

 

I've travelled extensively in the US and Central Europe.

 

By and large, the people I've met are good, kind and helpful.  Go almost anywhere in the US, even New York and people are trying to be friendly and nice.

 

Is there crime?  Of course, but it's still a very small minority.  Nothing like one sees on the daily news shows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With regards to the title:

 

I was visiting a lady in California who asked me where I was from. I told her I was from the South. "Oh," she said, "then you'll know what this is." She showed me one of her paintings of a tree-lined street. Something like this:

 

5222294712_219c851570_z.jpg

 

"Yes," I replied, "That's spanish moss." I found myself getting homesick when she interrupted my thoughts. "You know it kills the trees."

 

I was a little embarrassed (and still am) that I was feeling nostalgic for a parasite*. Moralize how you will.

 

 

* I know that it's really not a parasite, and doesn't directly kill the tree. But it greatly weakens it and prevents it from getting full sunlight, so the point stands.

 

In the end of all, isn't it really just perspective that keeps us from defining trees as nothing more than over-sized weeds?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of you don't get out much.

 

I've travelled extensively in the US and Central Europe.

 

By and large, the people I've met are good, kind and helpful.  Go almost anywhere in the US, even New York and people are trying to be friendly and nice.

 

Is there crime?  Of course, but it's still a very small minority.  Nothing like one sees on the daily news shows.

 

Somehow I feel quite positive that this, entirely, misses the point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somehow I feel quite positive that this, entirely, misses the point.

 

In reference to Babylon, we also have Sodom and Gomorrah and this statement from President Hinckley, "President Hinckley said something that stopped my heart. He said, “I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah [than today]. . . . Similar conditions . . . prevail all across the world. I think our Father must weep as He looks down upon His wayward sons and daughters.” 7 This is a powerful pronouncement. But I agree."

 

But maybe he didn't get out much either, because there are a lot of good people. ;)

Edited by Anddenex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somehow I feel quite positive that this, entirely, misses the point.

 

No, that IS the point.  Are we Babylon or aren't we?  Vort said we were because we are doing all the bad things that Babylon did.  His assessment is based on a very limited amount of data (doesn't get out much).  Most of the country (greater than 50%) is still very righteous.  So, how is the equating to Babylon warranted?

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of the country (greater than 50%) is still very righteous.  

 

A. Where do you come by that figure?

 

B. What qualifies someone as "very" righteous? I'm pretty sure that being friendly and nice isn't the core component.

 

C. It's the scriptures that compare Babylon to our day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is something missing from this discussion concerning both Babylon and Sodom and Gomorrah.  There is a most interesting connection.  Everybody knows the sins of Sodom - perhaps because the sins of Sodom are more fun to criticize - but few if any remember or think much about the sins of Gomorrah.  It is Gomorrah and Babylon that have the most similarities and it is these particular similarities that Vort overlooked.  The common ancient term for the sins of Gomorrah and Babylon is translated as "usury" sometimes used with the ancient term "filthy lucre".

 

The ancient concept of usury is radically different than the concept of "investment" and is based completely of the concept of making money without earning it or working (laboring) for anything.  Most certainly the concept of usury included the banking industry and interest - especially high or exorbitant interest (compound) that enslaves so many in our culture.  Quite frankly - anyone that carries a balance on credit cards from month to month is a slave of Babylon and Gomorrah.  I would also make the bold statement that anyone with more debt than marketable or liquid value is also a slave of Babylon and Gomorrah.  In short - I do not believe the desire for "fine" things is the great temptation of Babylon and Gomorrah but rather a propensity for debt - the desire for things and a willingness to enter debt to get them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A. Where do you come by that figure?

 

B. What qualifies someone as "very" righteous? I'm pretty sure that being friendly and nice isn't the core component.

 

C. It's the scriptures that compare Babylon to our day.

 

A. How do you come by your notion that I'd be wrong?

B. What makes you think they're not?

C. Yes, but not the US.  The comparison (as I outlined in my quotes from McConkie) is not about a country or countries.  It is about worldliness and materialism, and all the other things I listed.

 

To expand on A & B, the point is that I was making a general personal assessment based on seeing a lot more than what you seem to be referring to.  If you want to get into a statistics war, I believe we already tried that with a previous post from Traveler -- to no avail.  It is a religious argument to be sure.  But it is no more wrong for me to have a good impression of our nation's righteousness than for you to have a bad impression.  You were trying to put the onus on me.  No, it should be placed on the OP if anyone.  But I place the onus on no one.  It is a religious argument.

 

The Lord judges individuals.  So, it is not just a SCOTUS decision, nor an act of Congress, nor statements repeated in the media, nor the most popular movies that makes a nation righteous or unrighteous in the Lord's eyes.  It is what is in the hearts of individuals.

 

And while I have seen much too much darkness from individuals in my life, I've also seen the most sublime light come from too many individuals in this country to deem it "Babylon".

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A. How do you come by your notion that I'd be wrong?

 

Who says I did? You throw out a statistic though and I think you'd better be able to back it up. That being said, you can't because righteousness is in the heart and there's no way to statistically prove it ultimately. But I'd love to see you try. This, certainly, ties into question B.

 

B. What makes you think they're not?

 

Why don't you answer the questions I'm asking instead of presuming things that I haven't really said one way or the other? What is your criteria for determining that someone is "very" righteous?

 

C. Yes, but not the US.  

 

I don't care about this. I have no agenda that the US = Babylon. Nor do I believe that was, ultimately, Vort's point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then it would help if you better made the point.  Because, that was sure what the OP sounded like.

 

Actually his point was made quite clearly in the following. May I suggest a more careful reading:

 

I think this is worth meditating on, especially as we consider the forces acting inside and outside the US and the so-called "western world". We would do well to learn to see our own civilization a bit more as God sees it, and not be too dazzled with our brilliance and technical achievement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, it's probably all my fault.

 

I was being sincere.  You brought the sarcasm. 

 

You made a statement.  It was unclear. 

I gave my interpretation. 

You told me I was wrong, but instead of correction you only offer sarcasm. 

What gives?

Go ahead and correct me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let’s take stock of what has been said so far.

 

VORT:

  1. Babylon was super powerful, rich, flashy, advanced…
  2. The closest modern approximation is...the United States of America.
  3. Babylon was the mother of all whores.
  4. We should see our civilization as God sees it, not by the technology and intellect.
  5. We are Babylon 2000. That should be a sobering thought for all of us.

 

CARB:

  1. I disagree.  Gave some comparisons.
  2. Elder McConkie’s definition of Babylon.
  3. My personal take on how good the people in this country still are.
  4. My personal experience is that I’ve seen so much light in so many people in spite of the darkness.

 

VORT:

Not my point. (Never clarified the point.  Just served up a dish of irony with a side of cold shoulder.)

 

TFP:

(did not question anything Vort said, nor ask for justification of what he said.)

Carb, how do you know?    Why?  What’s your backup? What’s your justification?  Where do you get your statistics.

 

CARB:

  1. I made a general personal assessment. I did not intend the over 50% to be taken as a scientific statistic.
  2. I've personally seen the most sublime light come from too many individuals in this country to deem it "Babylon".

 

TFP:

  1. I’m not going to answer your questions until you answer mine.
  2. I deny implying anything.  And because I didn’t explicitly say it, you can’t prove I implied it.  You just inferred all on your own.
  3. I don't care about this. I have no agenda that the US = Babylon. Nor do I believe that was, ultimately, Vort's point.
  4. See what Vort said? (quote Vort’s point #4)

 

 

NOW:

 

You didn’t question any of the pure characterizations that Vort made.  You question virtually every characterization I made that opposed him.  Yet, 1) you don’t have an agenda & 2) You're questions never implied I was wrong about my points.

 

You didn’t actually see that I did in fact answer your questions, yet you continue to not answer mine and accuse me of avoiding the issue when you've continued to do the same.

 

I’d really like to know how Vort’s point #4 turned around points #2, #3, and #5 so that he was NOT saying the US is the mother of all whores.  Note, that #2 did say “the closest approximation…”  But point #5 said “WE ARE BABYLON 2000”.  It didn't say we are in danger of becoming...  It said WE ARE...

 

Now, to both Vort and TFP.

 

You said “We are Babylon 2000” was not your point.  Then why did you say “We are Babylon 2000”?  

 

And as I clearly outlined, it is exactly what you said.  The build up, the context, the commonalities, the characterizations, etc.  all indicated this was your point.  So much so that you even used parallel structure to emphasize that point.

 

If you meant otherwise, what on earth could have been your point with the words you provided?  And why do you find it so difficult to believe that a person reading your post VERY CAREFULLY to have concluded what I just said?

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let’s take stock of what has been said so far.

 

VORT:

  1. Babylon was super powerful, rich, flashy, advanced…
  2. The closest modern approximation is...the United States of America.
  3. Babylon was the mother of all whores.
  4. We should see our civilization as God sees it, not by the technology and intellect.
  5. We are Babylon 2000. That should be a sobering thought for all of us.

 

CARB:

  1. I disagree.  Gave some comparisons.
  2. Elder McConkie’s definition of Babylon.
  3. My personal take on how good the people in this country still are.
  4. My personal experience is that I’ve seen so much light in so many people in spite of the darkness.

 

VORT:

Not my point. (Never clarified the point.  Just served up a dish of irony with a side of cold shoulder.)

 

TFP:

(did not question anything Vort said, nor ask for justification of what he said.)

Carb, how do you know?    Why?  What’s your backup? What’s your justification?  Where do you get your statistics.

 

CARB:

  1. I made a general personal assessment. I did not intend the over 50% to be taken as a scientific statistic.
  2. I've personally seen the most sublime light come from too many individuals in this country to deem it "Babylon".

 

TFP:

  1. I’m not going to answer your questions until you answer mine.
  2. I deny implying anything.  And because I didn’t explicitly say it, you can’t prove I implied it.  You just inferred all on your own.
  3. I don't care about this. I have no agenda that the US = Babylon. Nor do I believe that was, ultimately, Vort's point.
  4. See what Vort said? (quote Vort’s point #4)

 

 

NOW:

 

You didn’t question any of the pure characterizations that Vort made.  You question virtually every characterization I made that opposed him.  Yet, 1) you don’t have an agenda & 2) You're questions never implied I was wrong about my points.

 

You didn’t actually see that I did in fact answer your questions, yet you continue to not answer mine and accuse me of avoiding the issue when you've continued to do the same.

 

I’d really like to know how Vort’s point #4 turned around points #2, #3, and #5 so that he was NOT saying the US is the mother of all whores.  Note, that #2 did say “the closest approximation…”  But point #5 said “WE ARE BABYLON 2000”.  It didn't say we are in danger of becoming...  It said WE ARE...

 

Now, to both Vort and TFP.

 

You said “We are Babylon 2000” was not your point.  Then why did you say “We are Babylon 2000”?  

 

And as I clearly outlined, it is exactly what you said.  The build up, the context, the commonalities, the characterizations, etc.  all indicated this was your point.  So much so that you even used parallel structure to emphasize that point.

 

If you meant otherwise, what on earth could have been your point with the words you provided?  And why do you find it so difficult to believe that a person reading your post VERY CAREFULLY to have concluded what I just said?

 

How can I answer your questions when the premise of the question is based on something not true? It would be like me saying blonds are attractive, you asking me why I thought that, and me responding by asking you why you thought blonds were ugly. Would that be fair? From my perspective the response is a bit ridiculous. Why would I presume you think blonds are ugly because you asked me why I thought they were attractive?

 

All I'm trying to do is discuss what makes us qualify a society as righteous or not. For some reason you've turned it into something quite confrontational. I just want to discuss an idea.

 

Your comment that 50% of the nation is still very righteous strikes me as slightly puzzling, but that's not to say it is wrong. In point of fact, I really only question the "very" part of it. But it depends on what criteria one uses to qualify righteousness -- a subject that I thought would be an interesting discussion. You assumed that I was attacking you. I was not. I was trying to discuss a concept. I wanted to know what your thoughts were on the matter. I might not have agreed, or taken a different approach, but instead I've ended up in what seems like a very weird and pointless debate.

 

*sigh*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share