Baptism for the Kingdoms of Salvation

[vmethot]

I want to present my reasons for why baptism is required for salvation.

 

In my most recent blog post Kingdoms of Salvation, I used a quote from President Uchtdorf in this past General Conference to show that baptism is required for salvation, even for salvation in the telestial kingdom. In summarizing this I say, "Salvation is entrance into any of God's kingdoms within His kingdom... Baptism is required for salvation. Baptism is required to enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, baptism is required to enter the telestial kingdom of salvation because it is part of the kingdom of God."

 

This logic is simple and scripturally sound. Read it and let me know what you think.

[zil]

Given that the Savior taught that baptism is needed, and given that we will (presumably) perform proxy work for every soul who ever lived and didn't have the ordinances proper for their day, I think it's safe to assume that baptism is indeed required for salvation.

[Vort]

I agree with you. Many others do not. The scriptures do not absolutely settle the question, because they really don't address requirements for salvation beyond what we need for exaltation.

[Rhoades]

There are different degrees of salvation.  Sometimes "salvation" means any degree of salvation and sometimes it means the highest, celestial.  One could say "baptism is required for salvation" and actually mean "salvation in the celestial kingdom".

 

My current thinking is that baptism is not required for lower kingdoms.  This is also what Joseph Fielding Smith thought.

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required."

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

 

However, I knew a career CES guy years ago that seemed unaware of this teaching when I told him about that quote.  He thought proxy ordinances would be done for everyone.  I'm not sure.

 

Another thing to consider is those that do not live to the age of accountability and inherit the celestial kingdom. Since we do NOT perform proxy ordinances for them, some think they do not need baptism.  However, it could be that they will receive baptism themselves during the millennium.  Again, I'm not sure.

[The Folk Prophet]

He thought proxy ordinances would be done for everyone.  I'm not sure.

 

Proxy work will be done for everyone. However, that is not relative to the point, because the question would merely become, must they accept said baptism even for the Telestial glory. I tend to think not as well.

 

 

Another thing to consider is those that do not live to the age of accountability and inherit the celestial kingdom. Since we do NOT perform proxy ordinances for them, some think they do not need baptism.  However, it could be that they will receive baptism themselves during the millennium.

 

No, no, no, no, NO!

 

Why the extremity of my emphatic reply? Well, let's turn to to Mormon for that (Chapter 8 vs 14):

 

"Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell."

 

So really, my vehemence is only looking out for your well being, because if you get cut off while in the thought.... 

[zil]

Good points, Rhoades.  The possibility that different dispensations have different ordinances is why I said "the ordinances proper for their day".  I do wonder, though, if baptism isn't necessary to inherit a lower kingdom, but that the work will be done (if appropriate for the dispensation) so that one cannot claim not to have been fairly offered the needed ordinances to inherit a higher kingdom.

 

I've always wondered about that dying before age of accountability thing - are they really just getting a free pass (which I'm fine with), or will their ordinances be taken care of by proxy (eventually), or in the millennium, as you mention?  TFP has a good point here - but there's that dispensation thing again - do the ordinance requirements vary depending on the age in which you live?

 

Not so simple as it might seem. :)

[bytebear]

From the Bible Dictionary.

"Baptism in water has several purposes. It is for the remission of sins, for membership in the Church, and for entrance into the celestial kingdom; it is also the doorway to personal sanctification when followed by the reception of the Holy Ghost."

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/baptism?lang=eng

 

I believe many people will be baptized but not accept the ordinance or live up to their covenant, so just because one is baptized (either in life or by proxy), there is no guarantee of salvation.

[vmethot]

The scriptures do not absolutely settle the question, because they really don't address requirements for salvation beyond what we need for exaltation.

I do not agree with you here, but I will explain in my next blog post (this Sunday) how the scriptures do settle the question.

I knew a career CES guy years ago that seemed unaware of this teaching when I told him about that quote. He thought proxy ordinances would be done for everyone. I'm not sure.

I am fully aware of all of the quotes by Joseph Fielding Smith and the one by Joseph Smith on the topic. My future blog posts (this Sunday and next) will address all of them. Proxy ordinances will be done for all who are eligible for them.

it could be that they will receive baptism themselves during the millennium. Again, I'm not sure.

The Folk Prophet is right about this. Also, no one will need baptism after they are resurrected. My understanding is that little children who have passed away will be resurrected at the beginning of or during the millennium and be raised in a resurrected state and still have no need for baptism.

I believe many people will be baptized but not accept the ordinance or live up to their covenant, so just because one is baptized (either in life or by proxy), there is no guarantee of salvation.

It is true that baptism is required "for entrance into the celestial kingdom" as it says everywhere. What is not true is that it is not also necessary for the other kingdoms of salvation. However, I do not agree that many people will not accept or live up to at least some of their covenants. Those who reject baptism, meaning they reject the Holy Ghost, will go to outer darkness; and, I believe as Nephi that few will go there.

[The Folk Prophet]

I've always wondered about that dying before age of accountability thing - are they really just getting a free pass (which I'm fine with), or will their ordinances be taken care of by proxy (eventually), or in the millennium, as you mention?

 

There's no getting around the need for Celestial Marriage for exaltation, so at least some ordinances must be done.

[Traveler]

There is more to baptism than the ordinance - there is also the covenant.  Although baptism will be done by proxy for everyone - it is my understanding that some will not accept the covenant.  The covenant of baptism is for the Celestial kingdom.- the work being done currently is to prepare souls for the Celestial Kingdom.  There will be no preparation for any other kingdom until all the work is completed for the Celestial Kingdom.  With this in mind I do not know how baptism will be performed for those of other kingdoms - though I do understand that all kingdoms have corresponding laws and only by obedience to those laws can someone be a citizen of any kingdom.

 

I see no reason to pursue any other kingdom other than Celestial at this point.  For those not interested in Celestial - their time will come but it is not now.

[Rhoades]

I found my Answers To Gospel Questions volumes this morning and re-read the one about baptism being needed for other kingdoms.  It's 4 pages long (although a small booklet with not too much on each page).  He cited several scriptures as well as a quote by Joseph Smith.  I didn't think any of them were a slam dunk on the topic.  After reading this, I side with Joseph Fielding Smith even more that baptism is not needed for lower kingdoms of glory.  

 

One that he cited is Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

D&C 112:29 says something similar, "And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned."

 

President Smith reasons that Jesus taught it's possible to not be baptized and end up damned in a lower kingdom (damned in the sense that they can not progress).

 

Proxy work will be done for everyone. 

 

Not for little children. But, even for those that live past 8, I am not sure on that.  Joseph Fielding Smith didn't think so.  I could see it going either way.

 

 

This was the response to my wild speculation that there was a chance children who died before being accountable might  "receive baptism themselves during the millennium":

No, no, no, no, NO!

 

Why the extremity of my emphatic reply? Well, let's turn to to Mormon for that (Chapter 8 vs 14):

 

"Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell."

 

So really, my vehemence is only looking out for your well being, because if you get cut off while in the thought....  

 

 

Good thing I didn't die last night.   :)  Although I think by night time I had forgotten this thread and was thinking about other things.

 

Here's what my thinking was:

Do little children need baptism?  No.

Do little children need proxy ordinance baptism performed for them?  No.

Given that little children will be resurrected as little children and then raised to maturity, might they be baptized when they are no longer little?  Yesterday I briefly considered this and without much thought speculated the possibility.  I figured if I was asked to baptize a resurrected young man in this condition during the millennium, I would go along with it and it wouldn't turn my faith upside down.  I wasn't meaning to think God was unfair and unjust to little children who were not baptized.  However, after thinking about it a little more today, I do NOT think this will happen.

 

Although with this and other things I acknowledge I don't know everything and I'm open to receiving new light and knowledge on the matter.

[Rhoades]

The possibility that different dispensations have different ordinances is why I said "the ordinances proper for their day".  I do wonder, though, if baptism isn't necessary to inherit a lower kingdom, but that the work will be done (if appropriate for the dispensation) so that one cannot claim not to have been fairly offered the needed ordinances to inherit a higher kingdom.

 

 

I don't recall ever coming across anything teaching that baptism wasn't required for different dispensations.  I think it is a universal ordinance, required in every dispensation for salvation in the celestial kingdom for those who reach accountability.   We know people pre-Moses were baptized (such as Adam, Moses 6:64-66).  People living the law of Moses were baptized (such as Helam in the Book of Mormon, Mosiah 18:13). People in Christ's time were baptized.  People today are baptized.

 

As a side note, there is at least one ordinance that all will receive regardless of kingdom.  That is the ordinance of resurrection.

[Guest]

Vicarious ordinances ARE performed for those who die before the age of accountability.  But such ordinances, currently, are NOT performed for miscarriages or abortions.

[The Folk Prophet]

Not for little children.

 

I should have said for everyone accountable.

 

But, even for those that live past 8, I am not sure on that.  Joseph Fielding Smith didn't think so.  

 

Quote?

 

 

Here's what my thinking was:

Do little children need baptism?  No.

Do little children need proxy ordinance baptism performed for them?  No.

Given that little children will be resurrected as little children and then raised to maturity, might they be baptized when they are no longer little?  Yesterday I briefly considered this and without much thought speculated the possibility.  I figured if I was asked to baptize a resurrected young man in this condition during the millennium, I would go along with it and it wouldn't turn my faith upside down.  I wasn't meaning to think God was unfair and unjust to little children who were not baptized.  However, after thinking about it a little more today, I do NOT think this will happen.

 

Although with this and other things I acknowledge I don't know everything and I'm open to receiving new light and knowledge on the matter.

 

No resurrected being will every be baptized or do any other earthly ordinance. That's why we do work for the dead.

[Vort]

Vicarious ordinances ARE performed for those who die before the age of accountability.  But such ordinances, currently, are NOT performed for miscarriages or abortions.

 

Nor for stillborns. Interestingly, the definition of "stillborn" appears to have changed over the years. In former years (so I have been told), any child who died shortly after birth was considered "stillborn", yet today we would consider that a live birth and perform e.g. sealing ordinances for the child.

[The Folk Prophet]

As a side note, there is at least one ordinance that all will receive regardless of kingdom. That is the ordinance of resurrection.

As much as I am aware of the fact that this idea has been plainly taught by some prophets, I would think that it's obscure enough, and non-canonized enough, to safely presume that the idea, while perhaps accurate, is not doctrine.

I struggle with the idea conceptually, particularly as a comparison to the saving ordinances of the gospel.

[The Folk Prophet]

As much as I am aware of the fact that this idea has been plainly taught by some prophets, I would think that it's obscure enough, and non-canonized enough, to safely presume that the idea, while perhaps accurate, is not doctrine.

I struggle with the idea conceptually, particularly as a comparison to the saving ordinances of the gospel.

 

Self-quoting to expand the thought a bit...

 

All the work of God is done by the power of the priesthood. I have no problem with the idea that the priesthood will be used for resurrection. But the essence of a saving ordinance is that is it is a covenant we enter into with God. Applying that to resurrection it really doesn't make sense. There's no (to my understanding) covenant related. Resurrection is free for all, and we gain the blessings of it for keeping our first estate, wicked, righteous, even for the few mortals who become sons of Perdition. So to my thinking the resurrection ordinance would be more akin to the laying on of hands for blessing the sick.

[Rhoades]

Quote?

 

"We will never be baptized for all the dead." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers To Gospel Questions, section 38, pg 150.)

 

Although a worthwhile read, it's not canonized scripture.  I'll share more of what he wrote:

 

 

Question:Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms?  Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?

 

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only.  For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.

 

The prophet Joseph Smith said:

.... A man may be saved, after the judgement, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the spirit.

He cites Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 12 on that.  He then says:

 

The kingdom of God mentioned by the Savior in his conversation with Nicodemus points clearly to the fact that it is the celestial kingdom that is meant.  This is also implied in the instructions given by our Savior to his apostles when he left them.  They were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, all who accepted and were baptized should enter the celestial kingdom, but all others would be damned, or be assigned to one of the other kingdoms.

 

He then quotes from D&C 20:25-29 and says see also D&C 76.  He quotes D&C 29:43-44 then he quotes Romans 6:1-11.

 

Then he says this:

 

All who are not baptized are damned.  The Savior said:

... Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

It is a damnation (stopping) and denied progress in exaltation to all those who refuse to receive the light.  We will never be baptized for all the dead.  Baptism for the dead is for those who died without the knowledge or the privilege of having the knowledge of the gospel, and then it will apply only to those who are dead who are willing to accept the gospel in the spirit world.

 

In doing work for the dead, as we do not have a Urim and Thummim, we are under the necessity of doing work in the temples for all names we find in our genealogical records and leave it to the Lord to do the judging as to which are worthy.  We have perfect confidence that the Lord can do the segregating.

 

That's it.

 

 

 

No resurrected being will every be baptized or do any other earthly ordinance. That's why we do work for the dead.

 

Yep. 

[vmethot]

There's no getting around the need for Celestial Marriage for exaltation, so at least some ordinances must be done.

 

This is a topic I have only thought lightly about. Not sure what to think. Jesus said that in the resurrection there would be no marriage or giving in marriage... But that is a lot of people who never had the chance... I trust the millennium will answer all those questions.

 

There will be no preparation for any other kingdom until all the work is completed for the Celestial Kingdom.

 

I agree with all of what you said for the most part. The work for the terrestrial kingdom will begin after the millennium starts but those who are still living will have a chance to receive celestial glory... We already know all the laws and ordinances for all the kingdoms. I don't know why Joseph Fielding Smith didn't see it.

 

I found my Answers To Gospel Questions volumes this morning and re-read the one about baptism being needed for other kingdoms. It's 4 pages long (although a small booklet with not too much on each page). He cited several scriptures as well as a quote by Joseph Smith.

 

You have one step up on me here. I was able to get my hands on Doctrines of Salvation but not on Answers to Gospel Questions. I only have one quote from that book. As you will see on Sunday in my next blog post Joseph Smith did actually say what Joseph Fielding Smith quotes his saying; however, what he missed is that it was said very early in his understanding of the kingdom of God. How Joseph Fielding Smith uses the scriptures that you cited is not accurately interpreted.

 

But the essence of a saving ordinance is that is it is a covenant we enter into with God. Applying that to resurrection it really doesn't make sense. There's no (to my understanding) covenant related. Resurrection is free for all, and we gain the blessings of it for keeping our first estate, wicked, righteous, even for the few mortals who become sons of Perdition. So to my thinking the resurrection ordinance would be more akin to the laying on of hands for blessing the sick.

 

Rhodes said ordinance not saving ordinance. I would not consider the resurrection a saving ordinance but I would consider it to be an ordinance as you mention.

 

As much as I am aware of the fact that this idea has been plainly taught by some prophets, I would think that it's obscure enough, and non-canonized enough, to safely presume that the idea, while perhaps accurate, is not doctrine.

 

This is off of the main topic here, but I think it is well established doctrine. It is on the church website under the topic of Salvation. I've never heard that questioned by a member. There was a baptist minister that did not believe that everyone would be resurrected. Then when I talked with him a few years later he didn't even remember ever believing that because the new testament states it. (John, Acts) No one will have a final state without a resurrection, no outer darkness because they could not be judged to go there. They could not be judged because they could not go back to the judgement seat of God without a resurrection. This is abundantly clear in the Book of Mormon (Jacob, Jacob, Alma, Alma, Helaman, Moroni), as well as throughout church manuals (Gospel Principles, Preach My Gospel, Church Website Topic, etc)

[vmethot]

Rhodes, Thanks for sharing those quotes. I could break down each of those quotes from JFS and outline how they are based on incorrect understanding of scripture and modern revelation including his father's. But you will see that soon.

[The Folk Prophet]

This is off of the main topic here, but I think it is well established doctrine. It is on the church website under the topic of Salvation. I've never heard that questioned by a member. There was a baptist minister that did not believe that everyone would be resurrected. Then when I talked with him a few years later he didn't even remember ever believing that because the new testament states it. (John, Acts) No one will have a final state without a resurrection, no outer darkness because they could not be judged to go there. They could not be judged because they could not go back to the judgement seat of God without a resurrection. This is abundantly clear in the Book of Mormon (Jacob, Jacob, Alma, Alma, Helaman, Moroni), as well as throughout church manuals (Gospel Principles, Preach My Gospel, Church Website Topic, etc)

 

I'm not following how this correlates to my point. I think either I'm misunderstanding you or your did me.

[vmethot]

I think either I'm misunderstanding you or your did me.

You're right. I misunderstood you. Thank you for catching that. I thought you were saying that resurrection for all people was not a well established doctrine. After rereading your posts what I think you were trying to say is resurrection as an ordinance (as opposed to a blessing, a saving ordinance, or something else) is not a well established doctrine. Did I understand you correctly?

Edited November 13, 2015 by vmethot

[cdowis]

Entry to the Celestial Kingdom requires making and keeping covenants which are administered with ordinances.

 

The basic difference between the "good people" in the terrestrial (also known as "heaven") and those in the celestial kingdom.  Both have done good works of righteousness, but what separates them is  whether they accept the ordinances for exaltation.

 

They have been offered the baptism ordinance, but they rejected it, along with the other ordinances.

[vmethot]

As promised, here is the detailed explanation of how it was revealed that baptism is necessary for all of the kingdoms of heaven:

Understanding Baptism Line upon Line

[cdowis]

 

 

As promised, here is the detailed explanation of how it was revealed that baptism is necessary for all of the kingdoms of heaven:

Thanks for demonstrating why the church is lead by living prophets and apostles, rather than theologians and philosophers.  Perhaps you should check out the COC -- they are always looking for intellectuals and theologians to figure out what they believe.