Is marrying outside the faith - apostasy?


lagarthaaz
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My non-member husband told me about a  news article he read that lumped the apostasy of gay marriage in with marrying outside the LDS faith ( I won't link it here because it's a garbage site in spite of having almost 1.5 million facebook followers). I told him that wasn't the case, and then of course tried to find the source for the quote in the article.

 

The authors don't provide any references, but use the following quote and imply it comes from BYU:

“The steps to apostasy are usually gradual. All members are counseled to guard against all manifestations of personal apostasy. The most frequent causes of apostasy are failure to maintain strict standards of morality, taking personal offense (real or perceived), marrying someone who is of another faith or who is irreligious, neglecting to pray and maintain spirituality or misunderstanding of the teachings of the Church.”

It actually comes from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism in the Harold B.Lee Library Digital Collections.

 

The link to this quote is a form of bait and switch, aimed at first condemning the church for its stance against gay marriage, and then implying that a huge population of the church is also 'apostate' if it falls into any of the above categories. The suggestion sure worked on my husband, who pointed it out to me as if it's a revelation I was not aware of. 

 

So, what do you think - is marrying outside of the faith a form of apostasy? I'm interested in people's thoughts on this. Hopefully I'm not being too masochistic in posting the question...

 

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It is not necessarily apostasy. It can be, in the cases where it is against the commandments of God. I also want to draw your attention to the source of the quote. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is not a source of official church doctrine. Although a quick Google search will tell you that it is semi-official, it is not. All official church doctrine and manuals have the full text available on their website and is published by the church not a single individual.

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No.  Look at the words carefully.  It says "causes" of apostasy.  Allow me to rephrase and see if you agree with the interpretation.

 

Some things we normally do not consider sins in the traditional sense are stepping stones to things that are sins.  Some of these such sins which are not apostasy in and of themselves can then lead to more serious sins that then constitute apostasy.

 

It wasn't saying any of the listed items constituted apostasy in and of themselves.  It said they can LEAD TO apostasy.  Big difference.  It is the same as "he that looketh upon a woman...hath already committed adultery in his heart."  Is looking on a woman adultery?  No.  It may be considered a sin.  But it is the first step to going to adultery.

 

That said, there is a reason why marrying outside the faith, although necessary sometimes, is not advised.  Your recent encounter with your husband is a perfect example.  Your husband obviously harbors some negative feelings about your faith and seeks to weaken your faith.  If the man you love more than any other on earth is encouraging you to abandon your faith, then what is likely to eventually happen?

 

Do not mistake my words.  I'm not encouraging divorce.  I'm only making a statement of what is common to help answer your question.  And I hope this may help you to keep your guard up.

 

I'm not in a position to judge you and your marriage.  But statistically, it is something that often leads to inactivity and possibly apostasy.

 

My sister married a non-member.  He was a good man.  We loved him and he enjoyed being a part of the family.  He even made efforts to be accepting of our religious practices.  And he made a concerted effort to speak no ill of our faith.  But all her children, though active, were still weak in the faith.  Something happened to cause divorce.  Then she and all her children went inactive and eventually followed other faiths.

Edited by Guest
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I thought we already answered this question in another thread?

 

Catholics believe that marrying outside of the Catholic Church is apostate.  Divorce in the Catholic Church is also apostate.  This is because Catholics believe that Earthly marriage is THE marriage that is authorized by God.  So, when I married my LDS husband, being Catholic, my mother was crushed.  I just put my soul into eternal damnation.

 

LDS do not believe that.  LDS believe that marriage is only an earthly ordinance.  It is the SEALING that is the marriage that God authorizes for eternity.

 

But, to be sealed, one has first to marry.  Therefore, marriage between man and woman is not considered apostate because it is simply A STEP towards that Eternal Sealing.

 

Now, marrying a non-member disqualifies you from Eternal Sealing.  So, in that sense, you are in a state where the blessings of Eternity is barred.  BUT, it is not barred forever.  Because, unlike Catholicism, death is not the end of life.  You can still accomplish the step of getting sealed after death.  But - you can't get it done unless you've been married in mortality.

 

So yes, we encourage people to marry - even marriage to a non-member.

 

Now, as far as gay marriage... this is not a step towards Sealing.  The only sanctioned marriage that can be sealed in Eternity is a marriage between a Man and a Woman.  Therefore, marrying somebody of the same gender will never achieve eternal sealing even after death.  The only way to repentance for people in a gay marriage is to break up the marriage.  So, gay marriage, at the point of marriage, is apostate.

Edited by anatess
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The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is not a source of official church doctrine. 

Agreed

 

It wasn't saying any of the listed items constituted apostasy in and of themselves.  It said they can LEAD TO apostasy.  Big difference.  

 

 

My sister married a non-member.  He was a good man.  We loved him and he enjoyed being a part of the family.  He even made efforts to be accepting of our religious practices.  And he made a concerted effort to speak no ill of our faith.  But all her children, though active, were still weak in the faith.  Something happened to cause divorce.  Then she and all her children went inactive and eventually followed other faiths.

Agreed. Big difference between something that may lead vs. something that is considered apostasy.

 

I can take a snap shot of 10 actual sisters I actually know who married outside the church. Carborendum's example of his personal sister unfortunately rings too true. Of the ten sisters I know:

 

2 - Husbands were baptized after about 20-30 years only once they aged in their senior/elder years.

1 - Currently has a "supportive" spouse who allows home teachers, comes to events and appears pretty neutral.

4 - Have non-supportive husbands. Husbands who gripe every time the wife wants to go to church, relief society events, etc. Husbands who intentionally plan family outings on Sunday. Husbands who tell the kids they don't need to go to Seminary in the morning so they can get more sleep to be in some other school activity. Husbands who make is apparently awkward for home/visiting teachers to come over. Husbands who are always trying to slide in "gotcha" remarks, ex: "see the news says drinking wine is good for you", "I know a Mormon who screwed up this way...", or articles similar to what your husband presented. Most of these sisters have never been endowed either. In some cases because the husband didn't want the wife in Gs. So on and so on.

3 - Divorced

 

I feel bad for those spouses who carry the burden all by themselves to raise a family in the church, especially the sisters who don't have the priesthood in their home, etc. 

 

In my opinion, why does it have the potential of leading to apostasy for both the member spouse and the member kids...

the inability to serve two masters. You are trying to teach one example, and your spouse may be teaching a totally different one. Divided loyalties exist in the family, that can lead to spiritual weakness and confusion.

 

So long answer to your question: NO marrying outside the church is not apostasy, but from what I have seen time and time again it is a huge up hill battle and many people can't keep up the fight when their main person of supposed support is actually the anchor dragging them down. 

Edited by NeedleinA
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Apostasy? No. Bad idea? Yes. 

At the risk of adding a little levity into the question; if I were LDS (& much younger), the idea of marrying outside the faith would not be much of a temptation. As Samuel Johnson put it, 

 

"It is not done well; but you are surprised to see it done at all."  ;)

Edited by lonetree
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In the sense of the context of Gay Marriage the definition of Apostasy is open rebellion against the teaching of the church.

 

While the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is not official it is not wrong in saying that the steps leading there are gradual.  The example it gives are some very real possibilities but it is by no means an exclusive list.

 

It is also possible that two Sealed in the temple Mormons have taken a few steps in that direction.

 

However it is a serious logical and reasoning failure to say that because something might be a few steps in that direction it is the only place a person could end up.  That is as bad as someone saying "Because a trip to New York begins with taking a step out you door... That every time you step our your door you must be headed for and can only end up in New York."  It is a totally absurd statement.

Edited by estradling75
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My non-member husband told me about a  news article he read that lumped the apostasy of gay marriage in with marrying outside the LDS faith ( I won't link it here because it's a garbage site in spite of having almost 1.5 million facebook followers). I told him that wasn't the case, and then of course tried to find the source for the quote in the article.

 

The authors don't provide any references, but use the following quote and imply it comes from BYU:

“The steps to apostasy are usually gradual. All members are counseled to guard against all manifestations of personal apostasy. The most frequent causes of apostasy are failure to maintain strict standards of morality, taking personal offense (real or perceived), marrying someone who is of another faith or who is irreligious, neglecting to pray and maintain spirituality or misunderstanding of the teachings of the Church.”

It actually comes from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism in the Harold B.Lee Library Digital Collections.

 

The link to this quote is a form of bait and switch, aimed at first condemning the church for its stance against gay marriage, and then implying that a huge population of the church is also 'apostate' if it falls into any of the above categories. The suggestion sure worked on my husband, who pointed it out to me as if it's a revelation I was not aware of. 

 

So, what do you think - is marrying outside of the faith a form of apostasy? I'm interested in people's thoughts on this. Hopefully I'm not being too masochistic in posting the question...

 

 

Nope.  The website your husband was reading is total bunk (as you suspected).

 

Exhibit A: I’m married to a non-Mormon and perfectly good standing with the church.  It was even my bishop who married us!

 

Exhibit B: Lag, I would highly suspect that you’re in perfectly good standing with the church. 

 

Now, I would say that being married to a non-LDS person is a bit more complicated and can be harder to stay active if the spouse is not supportive.  But it is perfectly doable.  But you already know this Lag, 

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The suggestion sure worked on my husband, who pointed it out to me as if it's a revelation I was not aware of. 

 

 

Your husband needs to consider who came up with the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.  It's not scripture.  More than 700 people contributed to the encyclopedia, including a large number of BYU professors.

 

How come he thinks this is revelation?  What does he care what some BYU professor thinks about how apostasy works?

Edited by NeuroTypical
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I believe there are two considerations.  First consideration - what are your personal covenants.  As a young single man I made a covenant with G-d that I would court (date) with intent and purpose of a Temple (Celestial) marriage.   As I was dating, I dated several non-LDS (most of which ended up being baptized).  But my mission and covenant in dating was to find a young lady to take to the temple to be married for eternity.  I took my covenant seriously - before leaving for any date I would have a private prayer and would go over my date plan with my Father in Heaven.  If I planned to kiss my date - I would tell my plan to my Father and ask for his approval and help to accomplish my plan.  When I finished my date I would return to private prayer and report to my Father in detail how things had gone - and when appropriate and necessary I would repent and ask for forgiveness.  I had strong desire to be worthy to take a worthy and pure daughter of G-d to the temple on our wedding day - when Lady Traveler and I were married - it was mission accomplished.  I believe for me - anything less then a worthy temple marriage would be a definite step into apostasy.

 

Second consideration, What are the circumstances and covenants of courtship?  This often depends on the faith, prayer and preparations an individual makes during their courtship years (or months, weeks or days).  I believe that anytime a person know to do a good thing and does not do it - it is an act of apostasy.  Some have married in ignorance  - and that I do not believe to be apostasy.  But I would recommend to anyone that does not currently have a temple covenant of marriage - that you strongly consider making a covenant with G-d to be worthy. 

 

First get yourself in order - make a covenant with G-d that you will do anything he ask that you may have an eternal marriage.  Then step by step make your covenant a part of your daily life.  Pray every morning and outline your plan for the day - and every night report back on your plan.  This will place you directly on the path G-d would have you on and for sure off the path of apostasy.  I promise that you will be blessed according to covenant with an eternal marriage.  It may not come in this life but if you are faithful the blessing and treasure of heaven will be yours to keep for eternity.

 

I would also suggest that anyone follow this same attitude of covenant - even if they are currently married in the temple - make a covenant with G-d and every morning pray and present your plan and covenant to G-d and every night report how you have done - I promise all that covenant with G-d that they will have the desire of their heart - and if you do not wish to covenant with G-d - you are on the path of apostasy.

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But - you can't get it done unless you've been married in mortality.

 

So sealing after death is only available to people who married in life? That goes against what I was led to believe by the missionaries many years ago when I was an investigating the Church.

 

Having recently learned that eternal marriage was necessary for "salvation" - in the Mormon sense of the word - and having previously been told that "everyone would have a chance", I asked them about the many Cambodian women who would never find husbands because so many men had been executed under Pol Pot. (This was not so very distant history back then.) Their response to that was ask "Do you think that God is just?" The only thing I could infer (assuming the Sisters knew what they were talking about) was that the transition from the single state to the married state must be possible after death.

Edited by Jamie123
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So sealing after death is only available to people who married in life? That goes against what I was led to believe by the missionaries many years ago when I was an investigating the Church.

The apostles have taught that no blessing, including celestial marriage, will be denied those who didn't have the chance to receive it in this life.  Searching the past few years of General Conference would find such references (though I'm not sure it would be a simple search).  Past prophets have taught this too.  (This is a logical conclusion given all those who have died before reaching an age when marriage was an option, and those who have died without the chance to have the Gospel in their lives.)  Fortunately, Christ will be the one to decide what chances we did and did not have, and what blessings we do or do not receive.

 

If one is worthy of a celestial marriage, but didn't have the chance to receive it in mortality, it's logical to believe that a proxy ordinance will have to be performed by a mortal (thus, in a sense, it must be done in mortality) - either before or during the millennium.  Personally, I think there will be resurrected beings traveling between the spirit world and the millennial earth helping with this work.

Edited by zil
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So sealing after death is only available to people who married in life? That goes against what I was led to believe by the missionaries many years ago when I was an investigating the Church.

 

Having recently learned that eternal marriage was necessary for "salvation" - in the Mormon sense of the word - and having previously been told that "everyone would have a chance", I asked them about the many Cambodian women who would never find husbands because so many men had been executed under Pol Pot. (This was not so very distant history back then.) Their response to that was ask "Do you think that God is just?" The only thing I could infer (assuming the Sisters knew what they were talking about) was that the transition from the single state to the married state must be possible after death.

 

We do not perform Marriage in the Holy Temples by proxy.  We only perform Sealings to those who have been married in mortality.  So, as far as temple work is concerned, yes, you have to be married in mortality before you can be sealed after death.

 

But, a bedrock teaching of Christ is that one is not held responsible for something that he couldn't exercise free choice over.  So, if after all that one can do in mortality, one is not presented the opportunity to marry, then eternal blessings are not withheld from such a person.

 

“There is no Latter-day Saint who dies after having lived a faithful life who will lose anything because of having failed to do certain things when opportunities were not furnished him or her. In other words, if a young man or a young woman has no opportunity of getting married, and they live faithful lives up to the time of their death, they will have all the blessings, exaltation, and glory that any man or woman will have who had this opportunity and improved it. That is sure and positive”

- Lorenzo Snow

 

 

How the blessings are manifest is not something that has been revealed to us.  We don't know if they're going to be given in marriage in the millennium opening up the Holy Temples for their work or if they simply qualify for whatever blessings the Kingdom of God has to offer a married person.  What we know is that they will not be found lacking.

Edited by anatess
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So sealing after death is only available to people who married in life? That goes against what I was led to believe by the missionaries many years ago when I was an investigating the Church.

 

Having recently learned that eternal marriage was necessary for "salvation" - in the Mormon sense of the word - and having previously been told that "everyone would have a chance", I asked them about the many Cambodian women who would never find husbands because so many men had been executed under Pol Pot. (This was not so very distant history back then.) Their response to that was ask "Do you think that God is just?" The only thing I could infer (assuming the Sisters knew what they were talking about) was that the transition from the single state to the married state must be possible after death.

 

"We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God."

 

There are any number of questions and situations, especially pertaining to the next life, that simply have not been publicly revealed. This is one of them: What is the disposition of women (and men) murdered before they could find the gospel, marry, and other such things? The best answer is: God is just. We need have no fear that such people will be cheated or lose any possibility of exaltation because of things beyond their control.

 

But if you are looking for specific doctrines about such things, you are unlikely to find any beyond what others have already offered. As Latter-day Saints, we sometimes start thinking we know a whole lot -- and compared with the rest of the world, in some areas, perhaps we do. But your question points up how little we Latter-day Saints know about how all things actually work together and how all problems are to be resolved. We are pretty much as ignorant as the next person when it comes to such things; we have just enough knowledge to help us on our way.

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No.  Look at the words carefully.  It says "causes" of apostasy.  Allow me to rephrase and see if you agree with the interpretation.

 

Some things we normally do not consider sins in the traditional sense are stepping stones to things that are sins.  Some of these such sins which are not apostasy in and of themselves can then lead to more serious sins that then constitute apostasy.

 

It wasn't saying any of the listed items constituted apostasy in and of themselves.  It said they can LEAD TO apostasy.  Big difference.  It is the same as "he that looketh upon a woman...hath already committed adultery in his heart."  Is looking on a woman adultery?  No.  It may be considered a sin.  But it is the first step to going to adultery.

 

That said, there is a reason why marrying outside the faith, although necessary sometimes, is not advised.  Your recent encounter with your husband is a perfect example.  Your husband obviously harbors some negative feelings about your faith and seeks to weaken your faith.  If the man you love more than any other on earth is encouraging you to abandon your faith, then what is likely to eventually happen?

 

Do not mistake my words.  I'm not encouraging divorce.  I'm only making a statement of what is common to help answer your question.  And I hope this may help you to keep your guard up.

 

I'm not in a position to judge you and your marriage.  But statistically, it is something that often leads to inactivity and possibly apostasy.

 

My sister married a non-member.  He was a good man.  We loved him and he enjoyed being a part of the family.  He even made efforts to be accepting of our religious practices.  And he made a concerted effort to speak no ill of our faith.  But all her children, though active, were still weak in the faith.  Something happened to cause divorce.  Then she and all her children went inactive and eventually followed other faiths.

 

Thanks for the interpretation of the wording of the article...this is a perfect example of how we seem to be very good at loopholes and semantics in certain texts. Most often, everything can have multiple meanings or words aren't at first what they seem to be. I need to remember that when I read and not be so literal. 

 

I too know of many women who have fallen away from the church after being married to a non-member, but I also know many who have remained faithful. This also applies to at least a couple of men in my ward I know who married outside the faith. Quite a lot of us in my ward are active and serve in leadership and other callings in the church, we do this while being married to non-members, to less-active members, or while separated or divorced (even after temple marriages).

 

Your husband obviously harbors some negative feelings about your faith and seeks to weaken your faith.  If the man you love more than any other on earth is encouraging you to abandon your faith, then what is likely to eventually happen?

 

I think he would be a happy camper if I were to turn my back on the church, although he'd miss his four hours on Sunday where he gets the house to himself while we out :rolleyes: , but he never encourages me to do the same or delivers ultimatums. He will help me get copying and other items ready for church, and the main beef he has is when he sees me spending money on items I need for my calling. LDS values underpin many aspects of my marriage, and my non-member husband recognises this. 

Edited by lagarthaaz
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I feel bad for those spouses who carry the burden all by themselves to raise a family in the church, especially the sisters who don't have the priesthood in their home, etc. 

 

In my opinion, why does it have the potential of leading to apostasy for both the member spouse and the member kids...

the inability to serve two masters. You are trying to teach one example, and your spouse may be teaching a totally different one. Divided loyalties exist in the family, that can lead to spiritual weakness and confusion.

 

So long answer to your question: NO marrying outside the church is not apostasy, but from what I have seen time and time again it is a huge up hill battle and many people can't keep up the fight when their main person of supposed support is actually the anchor dragging them down. 

Yes it can be tough raising kids in the gospel alone, but I'm fortunate that my husband doesn't actively try and pull our kids away from the gospel. Although he doesn't encourage them to be involved either. So far I haven't felt like he's 'dragging me down' but I've always been extremely independent and believe it is up to us individually to build our testimony and spiritual strength regardless of who we are married to (or not). 

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Your husband needs to consider who came up with the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.  It's not scripture.  More than 700 people contributed to the encyclopedia, including a large number of BYU professors.

 

How come he thinks this is revelation?  What does he care what some BYU professor thinks about how apostasy works?

He doesn't care to even look it up - the only reason he read it was because I sometimes check the news and other sites on his computer, and I guess some kind of cookies have tracked my interests. Now he gets 'breaking news' popups that are  really meant for me... And yet, he does sometimes read them. When we watched the movie"Inside Out", he told me he read about a Mormon woman who penned an article about how that particular film goes against the principle of free agency. He is also quick to point out any bigotry or misrepresentation of the church and in fact, doesn't understand why so other faiths feel so threatened by us. 

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Nope.  The website your husband was reading is total bunk (as you suspected).

 

Exhibit A: I’m married to a non-Mormon and perfectly good standing with the church.  It was even my bishop who married us!

 

Exhibit B: Lag, I would highly suspect that you’re in perfectly good standing with the church. 

 

Now, I would say that being married to a non-LDS person is a bit more complicated and can be harder to stay active if the spouse is not supportive.  But it is perfectly doable.  But you already know this Lag, 

 

Hi Jane, yes being married to a non-member and remaining active in the church is indeed doable, but as you've noted, not always easy.

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