Faith Based Works

[Byron]

The bible tells us that we are saved by faith through the grace of God.

 

…7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:7-9

 

Now there are passages such as that in James that tells how man is justified by works and not faith alone, but what does this really mean?

 

Perhaps it is important to differentiate between "saved" and "justified". Moreover I believe works are a byproduct of being saved. I.e.) The fig tree that bore no fruit, Jesus saw this and cursed the tree.

 

18Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry. 19Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered. 20Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?"  Mathew 21:18-20

 

There is a twofold effect here,

 

1) Jesus did this because he was a fulfillment of the old testament

 

"'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.' Jeremiah 8:13

 

2) Jesus did this so his disciples would see it and witness not only the Glory of God but to know that the tree was a metaphor for believers, that we need to fulfill our purpose in Christ Jesus or like the tree we may wither and die. I believe the fruit would have 'justified' the fig tree in that bearing fruit would have fulfilled the tree's purpose. A Christian who bears fruit will likewise be justified by fulfilling his/her purpose in Christ. This is done through works.

 

So from this my beliefs are as follows:

 

-God gives those of faith his undeserved favor of salvation (saved by faith through grace)

-As the faithful, saved by faith through grace, we must nurture that faith through works.

 

Some have argued that without works our faith is dead (James 2:24) but I see this as a reminder, not a warning. The reminder that our hearts are convicted by the holy spirit and just as 1+1 = 2 so does faith result in good works.

 

Does this mean we can be saved and do nothing? Absolutely not, Jesus tells us that those that do not live up to their purpose in him will die. Just as a plant that is not watered will die so too will our faith should we not allow the spirit to move us to do good works.

 

Now this I believe is key, "The spirit moves us to do good works" Jesus does not want us to boast of our deeds. Remember how pissed off God got at Job after Job questioned Him? God challenged Job to save himself with his own hand.

 

“Would you discredit my justice?
    Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
⁹ Do you have an arm like God’s,
    and can your voice thunder like his?
¹⁰ Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
    and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
¹¹ Unleash the fury of your wrath,
    look at all who are proud and bring them low,
¹² look at all who are proud and humble them,
    crush the wicked where they stand.
¹³ Bury them all in the dust together;
    shroud their faces in the grave.
¹⁴ Then I myself will admit to you
    that your own right hand can save you. Job 40:8-14

 

So remembering this I think it important to listen to the Holy Spirit, pray always (as Paul encourages us), rest in God's word (read the Bible) and allow the word of God to flow through us in the form of Good works. This to guard ourselves from taking credit for the good God would have us do. (Or moreover, the good God would work through us)

 

 

What do you all think?

 

  

 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Good to see you back, Byron.  :)

 

I tend to agree with your ultimate conclusion--with, perhaps, a bit of a twist.  My own approach (and other Mormons might vary from this somewhat) is as follows:

 

1)  Jesus Christ will ultimately save as many people as will be willing to accept salvation through Him at the time He comes in His glory. 

a)  Some of those who choose to have faith in Him at that late point, may not have actually done so during their own lifetimes.  However, they will still be eligible for salvation.

b)  The only people who receive eternal, irredeemable punishment are those who reject and fight against Christ even at the time of the Final Judgment, when they have irrefutable evidence of who He is and what He offers.

2)  Works are something that inevitably follow sincere faith.  They are not, fundamentally, what saves us.  We do not "earn" our salvation.  We can't.

3)  On the other hand:  Works can, in a smaller way, add to or diminish from our faith in Christ, so we want to be sure that what we're doing doesn't undermine our walk with God and we should pursue activities that increase our faith or edify the faith of others.

a)  But, we should also keep any good works we do in perspective, because--again--they aren't what saves us; and it is through the grace/enabling power of Christ that we have the talents and abilities and spiritual inspiration to do those good works in the first place.

4)  (And here's where we might drastically disagree):  While "salvation" is fundamentally ours for the asking, the simple fact is that not all people (not even all "saved" people) are equally responsive to Jesus' offer of salvation--either in time or in the depth of their faith--and their lives and lifestyles and choices will tend to reflect that.  The Lord will take all this into consideration when He measures the inheritance each saved person receives--but again, not so much based on what we did but on what, through His grace and our faith, we became.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

Elder McConkie gave a wonderful, if pointed, talk on this very subject. Among his teachings were these (emphasis is mine):

 

Knowing these things [of the atonement of Christ and the salvation offered through it], as did Paul and our fellow apostles of old, let us put ourselves in their position. What words shall we choose, to offer to the world the blessings of a freely given atoning sacrifice?

 

On the one hand, we are preaching to Jews who, in their lost and fallen state, have rejected their Messiah and who believe that they are saved by the works and performances of the Mosaic law.

 

On the other and, we are preaching to pagans—Romans, Greeks, those in every nation—who know nothing whatever about the Messianic word, or of the need for a Redeemer, or of the working out of the infinite and eternal atonement. They worship idols, the forces of nature, the heavenly bodies, or whatever suits their fancy. As with the Jews, they assume that this or that sacrifice or appeasing act will please the Deity of their choice and some vague and unspecified blessings will result.

 

Can either the Jews or the pagans be left to assume that the works they do will save them? Or must they forget their little groveling acts of petty worship, gain faith in Christ, and rely on the cleansing power of his blood for salvation?

 

They must be taught faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and to forsake their traditions and performances. Surely we must tell them they cannot be saved by the works they are doing, for man cannot save himself. Instead they must turn to Christ and rely on his merits and mercy and grace.

 

[...]

 

Now let us suppose a modern-day case. Suppose we have the scriptures, the gospel, the priesthood, the Church, the ordinances, the organization, even the keys of the kingdom—everything that now is down to the last jot and tittle—and yet there is no atonement of Christ. What then? Can we be saved? Will all our good works save us? Will we be rewarded for all our righteousness?

 

Most assuredly we will not. We are not saved by works alone, no matter how good; we are saved because God sent his Son to shed his blood in Gethsemane and on Calvary that all through him might ransomed be. We are saved by the blood of Christ.

 

[...]

 

Let us now come to the matter of whether we must do something to gain the blessings of the atonement in our lives. And we find the answer written in words of fire and emblazoned across the whole heavens; we hear a voice speaking with the sound of ten thousand trumpets; the very heavens and the earth are moved out of their place so powerful is the word that goes forth. It is the message that neither men, nor angels, nor the Gods themselves can proclaim with an undue emphasis.

 

This is the word: Man cannot be saved by grace alone; as the Lord lives, he must keep the commandments; he must work the works of righteousness; he must work out his salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord; he must have faith like the ancients—the faith that brings with it gifts and signs and miracles.

 

Does it suffice to believe and be baptized without more? The answer is, No, in every language and tongue. Rather, after belief, after repentance, after baptism,

 

Ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

 

And now, behold, . . . this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. [2 Nephi 31:20–21]

 

John, the beloved apostle, promises the Saints eternal life with the Father on this condition,

 

If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [1 John 1:7]

 

The blood of Christ was shed as a free gift of wondrous grace, but the Saints are cleansed by the blood after they keep the commandments.

 

[...]

 

In our day, among other Christians at least, we are not faced with the problems of our predecessors. They had to show that any works then being performed were of no avail without the atonement, that salvation was in Christ and his spilt blood, and that all men must come unto him to be saved.

 

Our need in today’s world, in which Christians assume there was an atonement, is to interpret the scriptures properly and to call upon men to keep the commandments so as to become worthy of the cleansing power of the blood of the Lamb.

 

Hear, then, the word of the Lord Jesus:

 

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [Matthew 7:21]

Edited November 18, 2015 by Vort

[Byron]

talents and abilities and spiritual inspiration to do those good works in the first place.

4)  (And here's where we might drastically disagree):  While "salvation" is fundamentally ours for the asking, the simple fact is that not all people (not even all "saved" people) are equally responsive to Jesus' offer of salvation--either in time or in the depth of their faith--and their lives and lifestyles and choices will tend to reflect that.  The Lord will take all this into consideration when He measures the inheritance each saved person receives--but again, not so much based on what we did but on what, through His grace and our faith, we became.

I do not have such a drastic disagreement here. In fact I pretty much endorse this. I believe that our works will result in the treasures in heaven we have access to. The ratio will be governed by God's judgment.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Byron

[The Folk Prophet]

I think the whole saved by grace vs works thing ends up being a matter of definition related to what saves us and what it means or does not mean to "earn" or qualify oneself for salvation. By way of consideration, from the Book of Mormon:

 

Alma Chapter 9:27-28

"And behold, he cometh to redeem those who will be baptized unto repentance, through faith on his name.

 

"Therefore, prepare ye the way of the Lord, for the time is at hand that all men shall reap a reward of their works, according to that which they have been—if they have been righteous they shall reap the salvation of their souls, according to the power and deliverance of Jesus Christ; and if they have been evil they shall reap the damnation of their souls, according to the power and captivation of the devil." (emphasis mine).

 

So, really, it's just a matter of how you term it. Do we "earn" salvation? Certainly not on our own. But from a certain perspective (a very valid one) we "earn" salvation by doing that which Christ has established we must do to qualify.

 

In a lot of ways this can be thought of like any salary or pay. Does the guy who gets a job that he negotiates for 80k a year "earn" the 15k more than the guy who gets the same job but negotiates it for 65k a year?

 

The important part of why we look at things in terms of not "earning" salvation is that we must understand that Christ is the one who paid the price. We cannot pay that price ourselves. So it is spoken of in the terms it is so we do not eliminate Christ. No man cometh unto the father but by him. However, we still have to qualify for salvation.

 

This is clearly explained in a variety of scriptures, both Biblical and "LDS". We will be judged according to our works. Revelations 20:12.

 

One can safely say that we don't earn salvation of course, and it has become taboo, from a certain point of view, to speak of it in those terms even in the LDS world. But I think if one thinks about it broadly, it's fair to also view it that we do earn salvation by qualifying for it according to the criteria set forth by Christ.

Edited November 18, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Just_A_Guy]

"Work we must, but the lunch is free".

[MrShorty]

I think the whole saved by grace vs works thing ends up being a matter of definition related to what saves us and what it means or does not mean to "earn" or qualify oneself for salvation.

I, too, sometimes feel like we need to be somewhat aware of how we define terms. I, too, see two different elements of the discussion:

 

The mechanism of salvation -- Grace alone. Salvation is a free gift, offered to us by Christ by virtue of His atoning sacrifice. There is no other name or means under heaven whereby we must be saved. On the surface, I might be disagreeing with Elder McKonkie, whom Vort quoted, in that I believe that man is saved by Grace alone. I think what happens (both in Protestant/Evangelical circles and LDS circles) is that we conflate the doctrine of "grace alone" and "faith alone". The reformers made them two separate solae, and, to me, they have come to make the most sense to me as two separate doctrines that are independent of each other.

 

The qualifications for salvation -- Protestants assert that it is "faith alone" that qualifies us for salvation. LDS (and Catholics and many other non-Protestants) assert that faith is one essential element of qualifying for salvation, but also include repentance and obedience (and some ordinances/sacraments, though I tend to include those under "obedience") as necessary elements in qualifying. Christ is the ultimate judge of whether we qualify. We believe that He will be able to perfectly balance justice and mercy in judging who is qualified. This is where I find myself saying that "salvation is by grace alone through faith, repentance, and obedience."

 

As I recently noted in another string, I sometimes think that many Protestants, because of the doctrine of "faith alone" feel that it is important to declare that faith is the only valid "cause" for our good works. As a non-Protestant not invested in the doctrine of faith alone, I am less bothered by saying that faith and works necessarily go together (are "correlated" if you will) without necessarily needing to see faith "causing" good works to happen.

 

As I also noted in that discussion, since it is said that LDS are more concerned with "correct practice" (orthopraxy) than "correct belief" (orthodoxy), in day to day practice, I don't know that the different belief really makes much difference in the life of a believer. In either case, the believer is doing good works and growing their personal relationship with God and becoming more like what God wants.

Edited November 18, 2015 by MrShorty

[bytebear]

The way I see it, Christ paid for my sins 2000 years ago.  I can't change that through faith or works.  But I can benefit from it, or reject it through both faith and actions (works).

[Vort]

Speaking from an LDS viewpoint, which I suspect is shared by many (thought certainly not all) other Christians:

 

How do we accept Christ's grace and enable his atoning blood? Not merely by saying "Lord, Lord". Not merely by proclaiming our supposed devotion. We accept Christ's grace by doing as he told us to do. It is through our works of obedience that we develop the faith necessary to accept Christ's grace. Thus we see that the whole "grace vs. works" dichotomy is false.

[BeccaKirstyn]

 

2)  Works are something that inevitably follow sincere faith.  They are not, fundamentally, what saves us.  We do not "earn" our salvation.  We can't.

 

One of my favorite talks follows this same point. I recommend it for all who study this subject.  

 

"His Grace is Sufficient" - Brad Wilcox 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLXr9it_pbY

Edited November 18, 2015 by BeccaKirstyn

[The Folk Prophet]

LDS (and Catholics and many other non-Protestants) assert that faith is one essential element of qualifying for salvation, but also include repentance and obedience (and some ordinances/sacraments, though I tend to include those under "obedience") as necessary elements in qualifying. 

 

This is not an accurate portrayal of LDS teachings on faith (though it may be accurate as to what a lot of LDS people believe).

 

Faith is not an essential element of qualifying for salvation that then requires additions. Faith covers repentance and obedience. They are part of faith. You simply cannot have faith and then fail to repent and obey. Faith IS repentance and obedience.

 

This is where I find myself saying that "salvation is by grace alone through faith, repentance, and obedience."

 

Except this literally makes no sense. "Alone" means alone. For the sentence to make sense you'd need to remove that word.

 

As I recently noted in another string, I sometimes think that many Protestants, because of the doctrine of "faith alone" feel that it is important to declare that faith is the only valid "cause" for our good works. As a non-Protestant not invested in the doctrine of faith alone, I am less bothered by saying that faith and works necessarily go together (are "correlated" if you will) without necessarily needing to see faith "causing" good works to happen.

 

I'd go even further. They don't "go" together. They are one and the same. Faith doesn't cause good works. Faith is good works.

 

As I also noted in that discussion, since it is said that LDS are more concerned with "correct practice" (orthopraxy) than "correct belief" (orthodoxy), in day to day practice, I don't know that the different belief really makes much difference in the life of a believer. In either case, the believer is doing good works and growing their personal relationship with God and becoming more like what God wants.

 

Totally agree. The entire discussion of the cause of good works is somewhat a non-starter. You cannot be good and produce bad fruit, and you cannot be bad and produce good fruits.

 

Which way does it work? Drawn closer to good works by Christ or drawn closer to Christ via good works? Well both, obviously.

[The Folk Prophet]

It is through our works of obedience that we develop the faith necessary to accept Christ's grace. 

 

As I said in the previous post, I would say this particular statement isn't 100% accurate. Our works of obedience are the faith we show. Increased faith comes as a gift from God (by Grace) according to our obedience that further enables us. It is an increase of loyalty and dedication that fills our souls, and it is manifested by greater good works.

 

I'm not sure how "accepting" Christ's grace plays into it beyond that. If we exercise faith in Christ by repentance and obedience to Him, it is the means whereby we accept His grace. Your statement seems to imply that there is something more to it than that?

Edited November 18, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

I hesitate to comment too much, for fear of hijacking a (non-LDS) Christian Beliefs thread and making it about LDS beliefs. But I'll try to keep my comments short and in the spirit of investigating and explaining beliefs.

 

 

This is where I find myself saying that "salvation is by grace alone through faith, repentance, and obedience."

 

Except this literally makes no sense. "Alone" means alone. For the sentence to make sense you'd need to remove that word.

 

No, I don't think so. If I said, "We get to the moon by the Apollo rocket itself, arrived at through a car ride, an airplane trip, and an airport shuttle to the launch pad," I don't think the sentence is either meaningless or self-contradictory. We need to arrive at the point where we can board the rocket -- yet it is the rocket alone that takes us to the moon.

 

As I said in the previous post, I would say this particular statement isn't 100% accurate. Our works of obedience are the faith we show. Increased faith comes as a gift from God (by Grace) according to our obedience that further enables us. It is an increase of loyalty and dedication that fills our souls, and it is manifested by greater good works.

 

I'm not sure how "accepting" Christ's grace plays into it beyond that. If we exercise faith in Christ by repentance and obedience to Him, it is the means whereby we accept His grace. Your statement seems to imply that there is something more to it than that?

 

My point is that faith is a process, not an event. Thus, acceptance of Christ's atonement and making it real in our lives is a process, not an event. We might literally be able to say at the awakening of our spiritual selves to the atonement, "I have seen it! I have repented and come unto Christ!" Yet the acceptance of Christ's grace doesn't stop there. We might still let go of the rod and be lost again. Our faith must increase, and with it our understanding of and acceptance of Christ's grace.

[Guest]

Evangelical:        “Works are a product of salvation.”

 

LDS:                     “Ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith”.

 

This is the big difference in doctrine.  I’ll go back to falling in a pit analogy. 

 

Do you believe the Lord pulls you out of the pit? 

Or do you believe you need to climb up the rope?

Do you believe salvation is gained through a one-time act of acceptance?

Or do you believe it is a lifelong pursuit?

Do you believe faith is simply a “you got it or you don’t”?

Or do you believe that faith comes in levels or degrees?

 

If works are a product of salvation, then belief (faith without works) is sufficient for Christ to lift us out of the pit.  Once out of the pit, we can do good works. Am I understanding the statement correctly?

 

LDS belief is that we must climb up the rope (faith).  But the rope is merely a tool that the Savior uses to help us.  He is the one doing the saving.  Not the rope.  Who on earth would worship a rope? So what is the climbing?

 

1. We are all born with a rudimentary sense of truth (the Light of Christ/Conscience).  As we go through life, we choose to listen to that Light or deny it.  So, starting from birth, our choices make us who we are.
2. As we listen to it, at many points in our lives, we are given more light through the Holy Spirit in small bits.  If we listen we are given a greater witness.
3. Then if we act upon that witness (making our faith active through works) we will receive additional witness of the Spirit, allowing our faith to grow.  Acts/works such as baptism are commanded of us.  Why would we declare that we believe and yet not obey?
4. This process continues line upon line and precept upon precept.  Add to Light, obedience, add to obedience a witness, add to witness growth, add to growth further light, further obedience…

It is the slow growth cycle that requires us to endure to the end in faith.  That is the kind of faith that is required to obtain His grace.

 

LDS belief also states that we cannot be saved in Ignorance.  Just as Paul taught on Mars’ hill (Ye have been worshipping in ignorance.  Now I declare Him unto you) we cannot continue worshipping in ignorance.

 

One who knows very little of Jesus and then declares belief is fine.  That is the initial seed of faith.   But he still worships in ignorance.  And we can’t be saved in ignorance.  We have to know what he expects of us – little by little.

 

How can we show faith if we’re not obedient?

How can we be obedient if you don’t know His commandments?

How can we know His commandments if we don’t learn?

He has commanded us to do certain works such as baptism.

If we have learned of his commandment to be baptized, why not obey it?

If we don’t obey, how can we say we have faith?

If we don't have faith, how can we be saved?

 

I simply don’t understand this notion that one can purposefully disobey his commandments and still have a credible claim to faith.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

No, I don't think so. If I said, "We get to the moon by the Apollo rocket itself, arrived at through a car ride, an airplane trip, and an airport shuttle to the launch pad," I don't think the sentence is either meaningless or self-contradictory. We need to arrive at the point where we can board the rocket -- yet it is the rocket alone that takes us to the moon.

 

I get the point -- but I don't think it applies exactly. The implication is that works are the car and then faith takes us to the moon (or vice versa), but works are part of faith, as I've said, and so an analogy would have to somehow account for that. It would be more like saying your legs alone take you for a walk, but you also need your muscles. While this may not be a perfect analogy either, it strikes me as closer. Per your point concerning the thread high-jacking (not entirely sure it's a problem though because it struck me that the point was to get the LDS view...but....) I won't expand further at this point.

[Byron]

Evangelical: “Works are a product of salvation.”

-This is more the accepted dogma of most Protestant churches.

Do you believe the Lord pulls you out of the pit?

Or do you believe you need to climb up the rope?

-Neither, I believe that all credit belongs to God. Therefore even my ability to climb a a rope is God given. After all if not for God there would not be a rope, a pit or a person trying to get out.

Do you believe salvation is gained through a one-time act of acceptance?

Or do you believe it is a lifelong pursuit?

-Both; Salvation is given but once, hence the warning to not blaspheme the holy spirit (the only unforgivable sin) The lifelong pursuit is our choice in accepting God and trusting him.

Do you believe faith is simply a “you got it or you don’t”?

Or do you believe that faith comes in levels or degrees?

-The Bible tells us of a hierarchy in heaven when it tells of the amount of treasures we will reap in heaven. So yes, faith can be measured in degrees. PS. In contrast, sin is not measured in degrees as we are told "the wage of sin is death" meaning sin=0 and there are no variations of nothing.

If works are a product of salvation, then belief (faith without works) is sufficient for Christ to lift us out of the pit. Once out of the pit, we can do good works. Am I understanding the statement correctly?

-This is inaccurate; good works can be done by both believers and unbelievers. The difference is that good works by a believer are intended for use in an ambassadorial means. i.e.) Let them see your good works and when you credit them to God, they can be amazed.

"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." Matt 5:16

1. We are all born with a rudimentary sense of truth (the Light of Christ/Conscience). As we go through life, we choose to listen to that Light or deny it. So, starting from birth, our choices make us who we are.

-Upon the death of Christ, he paid our debt to the old laws. He took on all man's sin. The law was thereafter, written on all men's hearts:

1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to

you or from you? 2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being

manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the

Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.… 2Cor 3:1-3

One who knows very little of Jesus and then declares belief is fine. That is the initial seed of faith. But he still worships in ignorance. And we can’t be saved in ignorance. We have to know what he expects of us – little by little.

- I also disagree with this because knowledge of God, like all things good, is measurable. Being ignorant of Christ is the same as not knowing Him. To declare your faith in Him is in fact knowing him. Does it mean we know everything about him? Not at all. But it does mean we know enough to declare our love for him. Now there are those among us that are false in their declaration but this is not what we are talking about and God will deal with them accordingly.

- If we take the idea that a new believer is not yet saved, then we nullify much of what God taught us and indeed we put our own understanding before God's grace.

How can we show faith if we’re not obedient?

How can we be obedient if you don’t know His commandments?

How can we know His commandments if we don’t learn?

He has commanded us to do certain works such as baptism.

If we have learned of his commandment to be baptized, why not obey it?

If we don’t obey, how can we say we have faith?

If we don't have faith, how can we be saved?

-We cannot show faith while being disobedient, however being disobedient is not the same as not having faith. A loving father disciplines his children just as God does with his children:

FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,

AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES. Hebrews 12:6

-What do we do that needs God's discipline? We disobey. Are we made unfaithful with our disobedience? Not at all. But we need to be corrected.

[Guest]

How can we show faith if we’re not obedient?

How can we be obedient if you don’t know His commandments?

How can we know His commandments if we don’t learn?

He has commanded us to do certain works such as baptism.

If we have learned of his commandment to be baptized, why not obey it?

If we don’t obey, how can we say we have faith?

If we don't have faith, how can we be saved?

-We cannot show faith while being disobedient, however being disobedient is not the same as not having faith. A loving father disciplines his children just as God does with his children:

 

Byron,

 

Thank you for responding.  I think that as you participate much more, you'll find just how much we agree on all the items you responded to.  But we need to be willing to work with perspective and semantics.  Most of your responses where you said that you disagreed were actually just semantic differences.  I agreed with everything you said given a certain perspective and proper context for appropriate definitions.

 

I quoted only one portion of your previous response because I felt the need to clarify something that I don't believe I had added before.

 

There is a difference between those "constant" commandments vs. the one-time command.  We are literally only commanded to be baptized once.  We are commanded to love others always (constantly).  If we fail to be baptized just once in our lives, it is a failure on our part (yes, there are mitigating circumstances). It usually means we are actively choosing to NOT be baptized.

 

The commandment to love others may be obeyed one day, disobeyed another day, and obeyed again yet another.  These are qualities we work on obeying throughout our lives.

 

In the end, you are correct, we are all beggars.  And no matter what we do, we will always be indebted to God.

 

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

 

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

Edited November 20, 2015 by Guest

[LeSellers]

It depends on what you mean by "works".

Paul invariably meant "works of the mosaic law", not obedience to the laws of the Gospel. Jesus told us that we had to follow His commandments.

So, once again, what do you mean by "works"?

Lehi

[letmeoff]

On 18/11/2015 at 0:07 PM, Byron said:

The bible tells us that we are saved by faith through the grace of God.

 

…7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:7-9

 

Now there are passages such as that in James that tells how man is justified by works and not faith alone, but what does this really mean?

 

Perhaps it is important to differentiate between "saved" and "justified". Moreover I believe works are a byproduct of being saved. I.e.) The fig tree that bore no fruit, Jesus saw this and cursed the tree.

 

18Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry. 19Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered. 20Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?"  Mathew 21:18-20

 

There is a twofold effect here,

 

1) Jesus did this because he was a fulfillment of the old testament

 

"'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.' Jeremiah 8:13

 

2) Jesus did this so his disciples would see it and witness not only the Glory of God but to know that the tree was a metaphor for believers, that we need to fulfill our purpose in Christ Jesus or like the tree we may wither and die. I believe the fruit would have 'justified' the fig tree in that bearing fruit would have fulfilled the tree's purpose. A Christian who bears fruit will likewise be justified by fulfilling his/her purpose in Christ. This is done through works.

 

So from this my beliefs are as follows:

 

-God gives those of faith his undeserved favor of salvation (saved by faith through grace)

-As the faithful, saved by faith through grace, we must nurture that faith through works.

 

Some have argued that without works our faith is dead (James 2:24) but I see this as a reminder, not a warning. The reminder that our hearts are convicted by the holy spirit and just as 1+1 = 2 so does faith result in good works.

 

Does this mean we can be saved and do nothing? Absolutely not, Jesus tells us that those that do not live up to their purpose in him will die. Just as a plant that is not watered will die so too will our faith should we not allow the spirit to move us to do good works.

 

Now this I believe is key, "The spirit moves us to do good works" Jesus does not want us to boast of our deeds. Remember how pissed off God got at Job after Job questioned Him? God challenged Job to save himself with his own hand.

 

“Would you discredit my justice?
    Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
⁹ Do you have an arm like God’s,
    and can your voice thunder like his?
¹⁰ Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
    and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
¹¹ Unleash the fury of your wrath,
    look at all who are proud and bring them low,
¹² look at all who are proud and humble them,
    crush the wicked where they stand.
¹³ Bury them all in the dust together;
    shroud their faces in the grave.
¹⁴ Then I myself will admit to you
    that your own right hand can save you. Job 40:8-14

 

So remembering this I think it important to listen to the Holy Spirit, pray always (as Paul encourages us), rest in God's word (read the Bible) and allow the word of God to flow through us in the form of Good works. This to guard ourselves from taking credit for the good God would have us do. (Or moreover, the good God would work through us)

 

 

What do you all think?

 

  

 

 

No one can work harder than God. 

[Sadliers]

Absolutely we are saved by grace, not by works! But we are judged by works, too. Jesus said "if ye love me keep my commandments" - is not keeping the commandments part of 'works'? And, just the same, if we set aside works then is that not our witness that we are merely giving lip service?

 

In the parable of the pounds in Luke 19:12-27 we learn that there are varying rewards for faithfulness. When the one pound was taken from the slothful servant it was given to the one that had earned ten pounds rather than the one that had earned 5, which further lends to the greater faithfulness receives greater rather than all being equal.