How to Love Like God

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, letmeoff said:

[Claiming Jesus used advanced science/technology] is what atheists call " Moving the goal post. " Just so it appears I'm not kicking a field goal.

No, it is not. You made a statement I disagree with. My stating my opinion does not change anything I said in the past, so I have not moved the goal post. No fallacy.

Whether you kick a field goal depends on whether you can demonstrate that what Jesus did was not science/technology, because you made the assertion that He did not.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

I think what he means is he doesn't believe there's anything beyond death because... death is the end.  So good or evil in heaven or wherever he doesn't want because he has to die first... and that's the end.

That may very well be, but I'll wait for his explanation.

Lehi

[letmeoff]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That's only when it suits them.  Plenty of atheists will also say that the only reason primitives believed in God or "the gods" was that they had no basis upon which to understand even current technology, or even natural phenomena like lightning.

How would you explain a radio to a caveman?  They will understand it is "magic".  This is not an argument theists make.  It's an argument atheists make to exclude God.

So, if you're going to make accusations try not to be a hypocrite about it.

No, it's an observation.

That's all.

[letmeoff]

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

No, it is not. You made a statement I disagree with. My stating my opinion does not change anything I said in the past, so I have not moved the goal post. No fallacy.

Whether you kick a field goal depends on whether you can demonstrate that what Jesus did was not science/technology, because you made the assertion that He did not.

Lehi

Jesus used some super science, so was there nothing miraculous about anything he did? 

 

[letmeoff]

1 hour ago, LeSellers said:

No, it is not. You made a statement I disagree with. My stating my opinion does not change anything I said in the past, so I have not moved the goal post. No fallacy.

Whether you kick a field goal depends on whether you can demonstrate that what Jesus did was not science/technology, because you made the assertion that He did not.

Lehi

Jesus used some super science, so was there nothing miraculous about anything he did? 

 

[anatess2]

22 minutes ago, letmeoff said:

Jesus used some super science, so was there nothing miraculous about anything he did? 

 

Of course it's miraculous!  None of us can do super science.  So Jesus must be somebody much much greater than any of us.

[letmeoff]

3 hours ago, Takawi said:

Well, I would get right on that, but I'm not at that level of belief yet.  I'm still trying to sort this all out.  I want to have that belief though.   When I get to that place, I'll probably not shout about it, because it is so that the Father might be glorified, not Takawi.   John 14:11-13 says that we will do even GREATER things than Jesus.  Talk about doubling down!  

But he says that you FIRST must believe that Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus or to just believe because of the works themselves.  I'm just not there, and maybe I'm a doubting Thomas and I'll miss out because I want to see and understand how it's done, and the idea of Jesus in the Father and vice versa-- I don't even understand the semantics of the passage.  I'm not there.   It is clearly my weakness.  Even when a person wants to believe at that level, sometimes wanting isn't enough.  Perhaps it's the wrong time.  I don't know.

And as far as not using science and that Jesus didn't use science.  The idea is ludicrous.  Of course he used science, just a science you don't know yet.  And that puts you in the same boat as me, letmeoff;; you aren't at that level of belief (yet).  You better get rowing because I'm not counting on either of us walking on the water today.

 

…11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe because of the works themselves. 12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.…

Most Christian's say that when confronted by doing like Jesus (D.L.J) But if you're not at that level then are you not curious as to why. 

All it takes is faith as small as a mustered seed said Jesus, so what Christian doesn't have that.

Edited June 1, 2016 by letmeoff

[letmeoff]

4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The students at Columbine HS did.  One of shooters put a gun to her head and said, "Do you still believe in Jesus?"

She did the most loving thing she could.  She said, "Yes." 

He blew her head off.

Still, her final testimony was to that shooter.  She gave her life to show him that Jesus was real.  I don't know how it affected him, but the incident inspired a Christian song, and has led many young people to either commit their lives to Jesus, or to renew and invigorate them.

 

No I'm talking about loving someone without coercion.

[prisonchaplain]

@letmeoff...and yet she was being coerced NOT to love him. The gunman wanted her to deny Christ, which would have let him know that her God was not more important to her than life.  By standing firm, she defied the coercion, and showed both him and God that she loved them.

[letmeoff]

3 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Maybe I'm being obtuse, but this makes not sense. Good is the opposite of evil in all its facets. Heaven without every good thing is, by definition, not heaven at all.

I'd be interested in understanding what leads to your conclusion.

Lehi

Genesis 2:17

The knowledge of both Good & Evil lead to catastrophic bioelectrical failure (Soul death)

The narrow path is in the middle

Proverbs 4

[26] Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. [27] Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

Edited June 1, 2016 by letmeoff

[letmeoff]

12 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@letmeoff...and yet she was being coerced NOT to love him. The gunman wanted her to deny Christ, which would have let him know that her God was not more important to her than life.  By standing firm, she defied the coercion, and showed both him and God that she loved them.

Well she's with life now.

[Takawi]

42 minutes ago, letmeoff said:

Most Christian's say that when confronted by doing like Jesus (D.L.J) But if you're not at that level then are you not curious as to why. 

All it takes is faith as small as a mustered seed said Jesus, so what Christian doesn't have that.

Well, I am not a Christian.  Do I believe Jesus knows his stuff, yes.  Am I in a pigeon hole you call Christian, no.  No, I'm still in the boat with you, my friend.  Perhaps my faith is as small as a quark.  Mustard seed sounds so out of range for me at this time.  Now row faster, I don't have all day.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, letmeoff said:

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That's only when it suits them.  Plenty of atheists will also say that the only reason primitives believed in God or "the gods" was that they had no basis upon which to understand even current technology, or even natural phenomena like lightning.

How would you explain a radio to a caveman?  They will understand it is "magic".  This is not an argument theists make.  It's an argument atheists make to exclude God.

So, if you're going to make accusations try not to be a hypocrite about it.

No, it's an observation.

That's all.

Is this a real English converstation or are you using Google translate or something?  

Lehi made a claim.
You rejected it by saying it was moving the goal post per atheist talking points.  
I refuted that by showing atheists make the same claims -- showing their (and by extension your) hypocrisy.
Then you tried to back off by saying it wasn't an accusation but an observation?

Whatever word you wish to use, you were making a statement that pushed back against a position.  But the same position was made by the position you're appealing to.  That's hypocrisy.

You're doing what you always do.  You make some cryptic statement as if it's some drop mic moment.  And when a simple counter argument destroys your position, you simply deny you said what you said or try to use a straw man defense of your straw man argument and believe it to be yet another drop mic moment.

It's quite apparent that you don't really follow any line of logic at all and are blind to your own hypocrisy and self-contradictions.
 

 

[letmeoff]

1 hour ago, Takawi said:

Well, I am not a Christian.  Do I believe Jesus knows his stuff, yes.  Am I in a pigeon hole you call Christian, no.  No, I'm still in the boat with you, my friend.  Perhaps my faith is as small as a quark.  Mustard seed sounds so out of range for me at this time.  Now row faster, I don't have all day.

I don't live for someone who'd offer me one choice, to have a relationship with them on the basis that I'd love them with all my heart, mind and strength and my neighbour as myself

Or else.

Or else means I'll never honestly know if I love Jesus because I'm not free to fail.

It's like this

You are offered the option of two doors.

Door 1 leads to heaven/paradise/a new earth/

Door 2 leads to hell/purgatory/outer darkness/separation/death

Now how does one freely choose door 2 knowing theres a better option.

Once someone tells you about both options you're stuck in a contradiction with only one way out.

That's how it works, and it's your own empathy and love to see your fellow humans not suffer that's used against you.

[letmeoff]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Is this a real English converstation or are you using Google translate or something?  

Lehi made a claim.
You rejected it by saying it was moving the goal post per atheist talking points.  
I refuted that by showing atheists make the same claims -- showing their (and by extension your) hypocrisy.
Then you tried to back off by saying it wasn't an accusation but an observation?

Whatever word you wish to use, you were making a statement that pushed back against a position.  But the same position was made by the position you're appealing to.  That's hypocrisy.

You're doing what you always do.  You make some cryptic statement as if it's some drop mic moment.  And when a simple counter argument destroys your position, you simply deny you said what you said or try to use a straw man defense of your straw man argument and believe it to be yet another drop mic moment.

It's quite apparent that you don't really follow any line of logic at all and are blind to your own hypocrisy and self-contradictions.
 

 

Yes the atheist's use that statement, it's about how Christians change their beliefs to fit with the rebuttal or the argument.

That's all I can say about that for now.

[Guest]

I think it's more like this:

On your own, there is only door 2. There is no growth, no increase, no progress. There is only stagnation, which is really losing ground. Door 2 is what where we will end up and what we have earned, without a loving God to guide us and a Savior provided to sanctify us.

However... we are provided another option. Door 1 is nothing we deserve. No place we could get on our own. So we are provided the Way, Truth, and Light to get us across a chasm we could never cross to Door 1. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Eowyn

[letmeoff]

1 hour ago, Eowyn said:

I think it's more like this:

On your own, there is only door 2. There is no growth, no increase, no progress. There is only stagnation, which is really losing ground. Door 2 is what where we will end up and what we have earned, without a loving God to guide us and a Savior provided to sanctify us.

However... we are provided another option. Door 1 is nothing we deserve. No place we could get on our own. So we are provided the Way, Truth, and Light to get us across a chasm we could never cross to Door 1. 

Well thankyou for that input, I guess I can see it that way. That when Adam and Eve fell door 1 was shut, until Jesus came and reopened the door.

He did say he knocks on everyones door, but will they open it.

[Takawi]

5 hours ago, letmeoff said:

I don't live for someone who'd offer me one choice, to have a relationship with them on the basis that I'd love them with all my heart, mind and strength and my neighbour as myself

Or else.

Or else means I'll never honestly know if I love Jesus because I'm not free to fail.

It's like this

You are offered the option of two doors.

Door 1 leads to heaven/paradise/a new earth/

Door 2 leads to hell/purgatory/outer darkness/separation/death

Now how does one freely choose door 2 knowing theres a better option.

Once someone tells you about both options you're stuck in a contradiction with only one way out.

That's how it works, and it's your own empathy and love to see your fellow humans not suffer that's used against you.

No, you're not offered 2 doors.  Hollywood!  It's red pill or blue pill and it's Price is Right Door 1 or Door 2.  So life's just a dichotomy, eh? 

How you decide to live your life determines your fate, not in one choice but MANY choices, a lifetime's worth.  The important thing I see is that It's not WHAT you know but WHO you know. 

It seems that there are levels of heaven and hell.  To be fair, it's evidently better to be the least in heaven than to be in any position in hell.   Who knows where you'll be at the end, but wherever it is, I believe you'll say, yep, this is where I'm supposed to be.  This is a representation of my life.  I think you'll say after a review of your life, this is completely fair and you'll even agree!.  I deserve to be where I spend my eternity.

Why is it this way?  I suppose it's because God is a just God.   For some reason, it's important for him to even the score.   So that "buddy" that betrayed you, cheated you and left you high and dry?  That person's gotta pay.  There is a lifetime of hurt and pain that other's "sins" against you have caused.     I suppose that's why Jesus made a big deal out of forgiving people. 

Your "empathy and love to see your fellow humans not suffer" leads you into a life of generous forgiveness.   It appears to me that choosing such a pathway, filled with forgiveness works highly to your advantage.

You choose your own path, but look around, there is more than path 1 and path 2   From what I read, if you choose a path that's well worn, I'd switch to another one. 

You are the slowest rower I've ever been stuck in a boat with.  I'd help you, but I've been bailing the water. 

 

[letmeoff]

8 hours ago, Takawi said:

No, you're not offered 2 doors.  Hollywood!  It's red pill or blue pill and it's Price is Right Door 1 or Door 2.  So life's just a dichotomy, eh? 

How you decide to live your life determines your fate, not in one choice but MANY choices, a lifetime's worth.  The important thing I see is that It's not WHAT you know but WHO you know. 

It seems that there are levels of heaven and hell.  To be fair, it's evidently better to be the least in heaven than to be in any position in hell.   Who knows where you'll be at the end, but wherever it is, I believe you'll say, yep, this is where I'm supposed to be.  This is a representation of my life.  I think you'll say after a review of your life, this is completely fair and you'll even agree!.  I deserve to be where I spend my eternity.

Why is it this way?  I suppose it's because God is a just God.   For some reason, it's important for him to even the score.   So that "buddy" that betrayed you, cheated you and left you high and dry?  That person's gotta pay.  There is a lifetime of hurt and pain that other's "sins" against you have caused.     I suppose that's why Jesus made a big deal out of forgiving people. 

Your "empathy and love to see your fellow humans not suffer" leads you into a life of generous forgiveness.   It appears to me that choosing such a pathway, filled with forgiveness works highly to your advantage.

You choose your own path, but look around, there is more than path 1 and path 2   From what I read, if you choose a path that's well worn, I'd switch to another one. 

You are the slowest rower I've ever been stuck in a boat with.  I'd help you, but I've been bailing the water. 

 

Who says this is life.

[Takawi]

5 minutes ago, letmeoff said:

Who says this is life.

Oh no, I was afraid of it.  You are rowing us right into the kitschy Metaphysical Theme Park, the one with the big map that doesn't say, "You are Here" but "Why are You Here?"  I've been through that theme park and all you do is go around in circles over and over again and get nowhere and end up with an earworm singing "It's a Small World After All."    You go on ahead; it's a huge waste of time.  I'll wait in the boat, but don't take all day.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Takawi said:

Oh no, I was afraid of it.  You are rowing us right into the kitschy Metaphysical Theme Park, the one with the big map that doesn't say, "You are Here" but "Why are You Here?"  I've been through that theme park and all you do is go around in circles over and over again and get nowhere and end up with an earworm singing "It's a Small World After All."    You go on ahead; it's a huge waste of time.  I'll wait in the boat, but don't take all day.

That's "biotheism" for you. I guess? I assume. 

[letmeoff]

19 minutes ago, Takawi said:

Oh no, I was afraid of it.  You are rowing us right into the kitschy Metaphysical Theme Park, the one with the big map that doesn't say, "You are Here" but "Why are You Here?"  I've been through that theme park and all you do is go around in circles over and over again and get nowhere and end up with an earworm singing "It's a Small World After All."    You go on ahead; it's a huge waste of time.  I'll wait in the boat, but don't take all day.

No hear me out.

Adam & Eve never gained life and everybody got kicked out of the garden of Eden. So if they didn't gain life and we never gained life, then is this life?

[letmeoff]

8 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

That's "biotheism" for you. I guess? I assume. 

How's your sister.

[mordorbund]

25 minutes ago, letmeoff said:

No hear me out.

Adam & Eve never gained life and everybody got kicked out of the garden of Eden. So if they didn't gain life and we never gained life, then is this life?

Life is bigger. Bigger than you and you are not me.

The lengths that I will go to - the distance in your eyes. Trying to keep an eye on you like a hurt lost and blinded fool.

[letmeoff]

7 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Life is bigger. Bigger than you and you are not me.

The lengths that I will go to - the distance in your eyes. Trying to keep an eye on you like a hurt lost and blinded fool.

A fool is someone who realizes they know nothing, their first step into the unknown.