Update about wife who left church.

[Just_A_Guy]

Which is why I would generally say to get all the little clauses in there from the "easy to get" category as possible; the one about not letting your date stay the night while you have the kids is generally a shoo-in, because if she objects to that in court, it presents her to the judge in a bad light. 

 

As a practical matter, you're right; but it's more or less an open secret amongst many divorce practitioners that constitutionally, these sorts of provisions are probably unenforceable.  I'll put it into a decree if my client insists, but I warn the client beforehand not to expect much out of it.

[NightSG]

As a practical matter, you're right; but it's more or less an open secret amongst many divorce practitioners that constitutionally, these sorts of provisions are probably unenforceable.  I'll put it into a decree if my client insists, but I warn the client beforehand not to expect much out of it.

 

Direct enforcement, probably not, but it's one more line item to show she's ignoring the court's existing orders when you go back because she keeps screwing up on other things.

 

Of course, it all depends on the state and the judge; in my case, it's almost certain that any future hearings will be before the same judge, and he's known for an attitude of "if you had a problem with it, you should have spoken up then, not just started violating it after you agreed to it."  He's also Southern Baptist, so not a fan of drunks or cohabitation.

[thoughts]

The devil is in the details.  Make sure the split is AFTER THE DIvorce legal expenses have been paid, and all the expenses of her new relationship is subtracted from her share,  and consider any tax implications.

[000Zero000]

Everyone has good advice and things to think about.  Thank you.  There are several things playing into my decision to ask for what I have asked for.   All of it centers around custody of the children.  For the majority of our marriage she has been a stay at home mom who has home schooled our children.  She has had no income to speak of.  While it is true that I put her through school, her degree isn't in a field where it can generate good income without at least a masters to back it up.  We also have 5 children, two of which are under 5.  There are some laws regarding children under the age of 5 in Utah that would favor her concerning custody and visitation, especially considering for the majority of our marriage she has been the primary care taker.  When she initially agreed to the 50/50 split I was very happy, especially considering my lawyer had given me a 40/60 best case scenario based on our circumstances.    I honestly thought that the things she was doing and how she had changed would effect that more but I have been told by my attorney and several other people now that it does not carry as much weight as I think it should.

 

While working through all of this the thing I have been worried about was that she would try to take away our agreement for custody and use that as a bargaining chip.    Remeber her initial petition asked for joint legal and full physical custody.  I realize that is just a way for her lawyer to start her at max position and then settle.  When things got messy and I pulled back all offers for alimony and asked for my initial request again I was worried she would try to take our custody agreement away.  She has not brought it up.  This is the one area if she tried to change it now that I would be willing to drain a bank account or two to fight her.  We are also going to use the schedule for who has the kids when that I suggested.  This is big for me. 

 

We did discuss the other option of splitting assets 50/50.  If we did this I can almost gurantee I would be paying alimony for the full term of whatever was ordered in the decree.   There is no way she is going to remarry or cohabitate if it means she would lose alimony.  She doesn't believe a serious/sexual relationship requires either of those things anway.  She is the queen of working the system and I gurantee she would know exactly where the line is and not cross it.   The other aspect of the 50/50 is that she would be required to buy me out of our home.  I haven't had a chance to talk to my lawyer about this yet but her lawyer is telling her that that involves my having a lien on the home that would be payable at the time of her selling the home or at the time our youngest child turns 18.  I don't know very much about that and plan to ask my lawyer about it when we meet this Friday.  

 

With regards to alimony.  I don't know if I mentioned that I was going to school when she filed.  I went back to school because I was let go from my last job and I felt like I needed a degree to really do what I want to do.   Problem is that that last job was paying me at a higher rate than I believe I can find now.  Early on in this process she was trying to impute my wages at that last pay scale for purposes of alimony.  It is likely that whatever work I find now will be two thirds of what I was making.  Alimony and child support combined would have disadvantaged me to the point of needing a second job just to survive.

[000Zero000]

The devil is in the details.  Make sure the split is AFTER THE DIvorce legal expenses have been paid, and all the expenses of her new relationship is subtracted from her share,  and consider any tax implications.

Her last counter asked that all legal fees be taken out of the portion that I was getting.  I told her it wasn't going to fly.  You bring up a good point that I hadn't considered about tax implications.   Thanks.

[Just_A_Guy]

Everyone has good advice and things to think about.  Thank you.  There are several things playing into my decision to ask for what I have asked for.   All of it centers around custody of the children.  For the majority of our marriage she has been a stay at home mom who has home schooled our children.  She has had no income to speak of.  While it is true that I put her through school, her degree isn't in a field where it can generate good income without at least a masters to back it up.  We also have 5 children, two of which are under 5.  There are some laws regarding children under the age of 5 in Utah that would favor her concerning custody and visitation, especially considering for the majority of our marriage she has been the primary care taker.  When she initially agreed to the 50/50 split I was very happy, especially considering my lawyer had given me a 40/60 best case scenario based on our circumstances.    I honestly thought that the things she was doing and how she had changed would effect that more but I have been told by my attorney and several other people now that it does not carry as much weight as I think it should.

 

While working through all of this the thing I have been worried about was that she would try to take away our agreement for custody and use that as a bargaining chip.    Remeber her initial petition asked for joint legal and full physical custody.  I realize that is just a way for her lawyer to start her at max position and then settle.  When things got messy and I pulled back all offers for alimony and asked for my initial request again I was worried she would try to take our custody agreement away.  She has not brought it up.  This is the one area if she tried to change it now that I would be willing to drain a bank account or two to fight her.  We are also going to use the schedule for who has the kids when that I suggested.  This is big for me. 

 

We did discuss the other option of splitting assets 50/50.  If we did this I can almost gurantee I would be paying alimony for the full term of whatever was ordered in the decree.   There is no way she is going to remarry or cohabitate if it means she would lose alimony.  She doesn't believe a serious/sexual relationship requires either of those things anway.  She is the queen of working the system and I gurantee she would know exactly where the line is and not cross it.   The other aspect of the 50/50 is that she would be required to buy me out of our home.  I haven't had a chance to talk to my lawyer about this yet but her lawyer is telling her that that involves my having a lien on the home that would be payable at the time of her selling the home or at the time our youngest child turns 18.  I don't know very much about that and plan to ask my lawyer about it when we meet this Friday.  

 

With regards to alimony.  I don't know if I mentioned that I was going to school when she filed.  I went back to school because I was let go from my last job and I felt like I needed a degree to really do what I want to do.   Problem is that that last job was paying me at a higher rate than I believe I can find now.  Early on in this process she was trying to impute my wages at that last pay scale for purposes of alimony.  It is likely that whatever work I find now will be two thirds of what I was making.  Alimony and child support combined would have disadvantaged me to the point of needing a second job just to survive.

 

An alimony buy-out makes a lot more sense, especially after a long-term marriage.  Just bear in mind that money paid as alimony is tax-exempt, whereas here is no tax break for money paid to a divorcing spouse as part of a "property settlement"; and plan accordingly.

 

Continued residence in the home, with required sale and division when the kids reach majority, is something I see more frequently when the parent in the home is going to have primary physical custody and we want to keep the kiddies in the home they grew up in.  It's great when it works, but it can set up a lot of problems for down the road (what if she fails to maintain the property?  What if she quits making the payments and lets the thing go into foreclosure?  What if you can't agree on a listing agent, or a listing price?  What if she just ignores you and refuses to list the thing?  How is the appreciated value allocated?  What if the home actually depreciates--who's going to eat that?  Does she have to refinance in the interim to get your name off the mortgage?)  Definitely talk to a lawyer, but in most situations I personally prefer to have a clean and immediate (well, relatively speaking, anyways) financial break.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[mrmarklin]

In my experience and I've seen a lot as a financial professional, avoiding alimony is a very big deal. While each state is different, here in PRK, the recipient spouse can keep going back to court to change alimony amounts if the payor spouse becomes more affluent. Here in PRK, if one has been married 10 years of longer, the payor becomes a "lifer" with respect to payments.

Edited December 9, 2015 by mrmarklin

[unixknight]

While working through all of this the thing I have been worried about was that she would try to take away our agreement for custody and use that as a bargaining chip.    Remeber her initial petition asked for joint legal and full physical custody.  I realize that is just a way for her lawyer to start her at max position and then settle.  When things got messy and I pulled back all offers for alimony and asked for my initial request again I was worried she would try to take our custody agreement away.  She has not brought it up.  This is the one area if she tried to change it now that I would be willing to drain a bank account or two to fight her.  We are also going to use the schedule for who has the kids when that I suggested.  This is big for me. 

I wouldn't do that if I were you.

 

When my parents split, I became a pawn.  Even at the age of 12 I could tell that, at some point, my parents' battle with each other over custody tore me in two as each parent tried to recruit me to their side.  My dad wasn't so bad about it, but my mom went on a full scale propaganda war against my father and, to my embarassment, succeeded largely for a while.  For my dad it was about not giving up control and for mom, it was about somehow proving that she loved me by fighting to get custody... as if somehow I'd think she didn't love me if she didn't wage the war.  The result was that I ended up living in a tiny, nasty little apartment with her and hew new boyfriend instead of living in my dad's comfortable and safe 3 bedroom house he was renting. 

 

When I got divorced, I conceded full custody to my ex outright, with the only stipulation being I got visitation every other weekend.  Of course I was accused of not loving my kids because I wasn't going to war over custody, but my ex was living in a safe, comfortable house with her parents and I was unemployed and borrowing money from my mom to keep my apartment.  I knew it would be better for them to stay where they were AND I didn't want to force them into a situation where they felt like they had to choose between mom and dad.  What a horrible way to feel, and I know it firsthand.

 

Do you know how awful it is to sit on a witness stand, in a courtroom, and be asked questions designed to make your mother or father look like a horrible person?  Do you have any idea what it's like to have a lawyer fixating on tiny details to paint life with one parent or the other as being almost as awful as living in a starving village in East Africa?  Do you know what it's like to have you rmom come to your dad's place, and quickly gather a few belongings and clothes and leave before dad comes home from the court hearing that just granted mom full custody of you?

 

Hopefully you don't know, but I do.  And if you engage in that custody war, I guarantee your kids will too.

 

Today, my kids and I are far, far closer than they are with their mom.  I acted in their best interests by NOT fighting, and they understand that.  They understood it at the time, too.  Their mother tried to wage the propaganda war, I kept silent.  Their mother tried to make them hate me for my wrongdoings during the marriage, I kept silent.  Eventually they realized which parent was trying to recruit them and which parent was looking out for them.  

 

Do NOT make your children into pawns.  As long as their mother can provide a safe and stable home life for them, and as long as she doesn't try to keep you from seeing them, let it be.  Take the money you would have spent on a lengthy and painful custody battle and take the kids to Disney World instead during one of their visits.

 

Yes, it sucks to not live with them.  Yes, it sucks to have to take them back to their mother's after a visit, or watch them drive away if she picks them up.  But it's a pain we bear because we love them and what matters is THEIR well being, not our own.  Cry in the darkness after they're gone and don't see you.  Pray for the strength to make it to the next visit.  Make sure they know that what happened between you and their mom is NOT their fault and never try to recruit them against her.

 

The only real problem here is that she left the Church and you didn't, which means their home life wouldn't be one the reinforces their Faith.  The best you can do is the best you can do.  Be sure to take them with you to Church when they're visiting.  Be sure to talk to them about he Gospel when they're with you.  If their mother tries to turn them against the Church then do your best to give them the truth while you have them, and ask God to help you and guide you for their sake.  Continue to be an example.

 

A situation like this is far, far from the ideal, so we have to accept that things are going to be broken and do what we can to compensate as best we can.

Edited December 9, 2015 by unixknight

[Just_A_Guy]

The only real problem here is that she left the Church and you didn't, which means their home life wouldn't be one the reinforces their Faith.  The best you can do is the best you can do.  Be sure to take them with you to Church when they're visiting.  Be sure to talk to them about he Gospel when they're with you.  If their mother tries to turn them against the Church then do your best to give them the truth while you have them, and ask God to help you and guide you for their sake.  Continue to be an example.

 

For what it's worth, kids tend to follow the religious preferences of the father--not so much the mother.  There was a study in Scandinavia back in the early 1990s that bore this out, though I can't find the cite at the moment.

[unixknight]

For what it's worth, kids tend to follow the religious preferences of the father--not so much the mother.  There was a study in Scandinavia back in the early 1990s that bore this out, though I can't find the cite at the moment.

 

That's good to know.  My experience has had mixed results.  From that marriage, my oldest son is fully committed to the Church and has his Temple Recommend.  My younger son is off doing his own thing in college, and was never super invested in the Church to begin with.  My daughter is ambivalent, but a lot of that is because the ward in the area her mother lives in is pretty snobby and has always ostracized her because of her being from a broken home.  She does come with us to curch on weekend visits though.

[classylady]

I know this is early to think about, but what if you should remarry and have several more children with your next wife?  Will the asset division be sufficient to provide for a second family?  The reason I say this is I am a wife of a divorced man where the divorce wiped him out financially.  He never truly recovered financially.  This has been a tremendous burden on our marriage. We have been married nearly 35 years now with five children of our own and I raised his two children from his previous marriage.  He was only married 6 years to his first wife, and the repercussions still follow us to this day.  Please think twice before giving more of your share to your wife.  Your next wife and children may suffer.

[000Zero000]

Settlement signed and notarized.  Now we just have to wait the mandatory 90 days from the date of her initial petition for a judge to sign it and make it official.  That puts us just past the beggining of January for it to be finalized. 

 

My lawyer, who didn't actually do much but charge me, said I made out like a bandit and told me good job on the negotiation.  Her lawyers told her to not agree to what we agreed to and had her sign a document stating she was going against legal counsel.  The senior partners at the firm also came in and talked to her to try to dissuade her from agreeing to my terms.

 

This all makes me wonder if I am actually doing something that would be considered wrong and for whatever reason I just can't see it.  My lawyer, after actually seeing the settlement which he had no part in putting together, indicated that it was a very good outcome for me and that I should get it wrapped up as quickly as possible before something changes.

 

My soon to be ex has always wanted what she wanted and wanted it now.  I've always known this about her.  Sometimes it serves her well and other times, well, not so much. I think this might be one of those times that it is not going to be to her advantage.  She is so anxious to be divorced and be rid of me that she is willing to agree to something that is not in her best interest or not the best outcome she could possibly get.

 

I don't want to take advantage of that but everyone I have been talking to about it says that I should take every advantage I can get.  I really don't want to do the wrong thing but I know that no matter what we agree to that she will hate me later on.  Anyway, life goes on.  Time to look for a  place to live.

[000Zero000]

I know this is early to think about, but what if you should remarry and have several more children with your next wife?  Will the asset division be sufficient to provide for a second family?  The reason I say this is I am a wife of a divorced man where the divorce wiped him out financially.  He never truly recovered financially.  This has been a tremendous burden on our marriage. We have been married nearly 35 years now with five children of our own and I raised his two children from his previous marriage.  He was only married 6 years to his first wife, and the repercussions still follow us to this day.  Please think twice before giving more of your share to your wife.  Your next wife and children may suffer.

I think the asset division will be more than sufficient should the scenario you posed happen.   Early indications are that I am coming out of this in a very good position.   From talking to others who are divorced it has come up that she might actually come after me later for additional money.  I spoke with my lawyer about this and he basically said there was not a way to prevent that from happening.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Zero, I don't have any advice...at least not legal advice.

 

I just wanted to say; I'm sorry you are going through all of this.  It must be awful.

 

I know from my own adversities though that Christ can take even the deepest hurt and turn it into something beautiful.  It will take time, likely a long time, but He can do that for you too.  Keep holding on to the Iron Rod.  

 

(The Iron Rod is Christ, by the way...the word of God is Christ see John 1:1)  

[Windseeker]

Settlement signed and notarized.  Now we just have to wait the mandatory 90 days from the date of her initial petition for a judge to sign it and make it official.  That puts us just past the beggining of January for it to be finalized. 

 

My lawyer, who didn't actually do much but charge me, said I made out like a bandit and told me good job on the negotiation.  Her lawyers told her to not agree to what we agreed to and had her sign a document stating she was going against legal counsel.  The senior partners at the firm also came in and talked to her to try to dissuade her from agreeing to my terms.

 

This all makes me wonder if I am actually doing something that would be considered wrong and for whatever reason I just can't see it.  My lawyer, after actually seeing the settlement which he had no part in putting together, indicated that it was a very good outcome for me and that I should get it wrapped up as quickly as possible before something changes.

 

My soon to be ex has always wanted what she wanted and wanted it now.  I've always known this about her.  Sometimes it serves her well and other times, well, not so much. I think this might be one of those times that it is not going to be to her advantage.  She is so anxious to be divorced and be rid of me that she is willing to agree to something that is not in her best interest or not the best outcome she could possibly get.

 

I don't want to take advantage of that but everyone I have been talking to about it says that I should take every advantage I can get.  I really don't want to do the wrong thing but I know that no matter what we agree to that she will hate me later on.  Anyway, life goes on.  Time to look for a  place to live.

 

I've been following this thread but didn't feel I had much to add, other than I've been thru this.

 

I know what's it like and I know the soul wracking introspection and guilt you experience as you dissect every moment of  your life that led you to this point. It's been about 7 years for me and looking back I'm grateful that I was smart enough to take full advantage of the selfish haste and cloudy vision that my first wife's covenant breaking and sin brought about. My terms were so shocking to the judge he almost didn't sign them. He had never seen anything like it. But it allowed me to re-marry, keep the kids with me and move to a place where they had a better chance of grasping the gospel and avoid conflict that often makes things worse. You need to take every advantage because you're not doing this for yourself but as the only rational principled caretaker of your children.

 

 

It has not been easy and you need to be prepared to deal with the shock waves that will affect all of you the rest of your lives. 

 

My advice going forward is to be Christlike. Never speak of your ex-wife unkindly. Forgive her and give her room to change. You can be the rock in their lives as they face and deal with their own disappointments and challenges of disillusion. This is your life so these challenges are here to help you grow and become more compassionate, understanding and loving.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Windseeker

[NightSG]

Settlement signed and notarized.  Now we just have to wait the mandatory 90 days from the date of her initial petition for a judge to sign it and make it official.  That puts us just past the beggining of January for it to be finalized. 

 

Suggested New Year's Resolution; move to a non-alimony state before you start looking for a new woman.

[000Zero000]

A new wrinkle.  Was given and accepted a very good job offer today.  The pay is well above what I had anticipated at a great company.  I just sent her an email letting her know the details (the legally required details).   I am really hoping this doesn't blow things up.