BYU Expulsion Policy

[nbent412]

Hey all, I just read about how BYU has the policy that if any LDS member leaves the faith while at the school they have violated the Honor Code and will be expelled? Can anyone explain this to me?

 

Thank you!

[zil]

You can read the BYU Honor Code by clicking those words.  I didn't have to get past the bullet list to understand why that would be their policy.  Given that this policy is explicitly spelled out in the honor code - which students must agree to when they apply, this seems like a non-issue to me.

[Vort]

Hey all, I just read about how BYU has the policy that if any LDS member leaves the faith while at the school they have violated the Honor Code and will be expelled? Can anyone explain this to me?

 

Thank you!

 

Not sure I understand your confusion. Can you explain why a Church-sponsored school that heavily subsidizes its students using tithing funds might not want to disallow students who turn against the sponsoring body?

[Str8Shooter]

Hey all, I just read about how BYU has the policy that if any LDS member leaves the faith while at the school they have violated the Honor Code and will be expelled? Can anyone explain this to me?

 

Thank you!

 

If you attend an LDS school and decide to no longer be LDS, you will be expelled.

The overwhelming majority of people who leave the church can't just "leave" and be friends.  They almost always fight against it, sometimes quite bitterly.

This brings up a question I have:  If someone leaves the LDS church, why would they want to continue pursuing a degree from a religious school when they no longer believe in the religion?  Why not transfer to FSU and party all the time? (JK)   

[cdowis]

This brings up a question I have:  If someone leaves the LDS church, why would they want to continue pursuing a degree from a religious school when they no longer believe in the religion?  Why not transfer to FSU and party all the time? (JK)   

Now that he is saved, he will want to stay and bring many of his friends and acquaintances to the REAL Jesus.

 

Hallujah!

Edited December 4, 2015 by cdowis

[Guest MormonGator]

While I don't know about the BYU policy per se, it's okay to not go to BYU and still be an active, happy and legit LDS. 

No, I am not talking about you in particular, OP, but I was just speaking to a missionary about this online! He said he "felt guilty" about not going to BYU. Not because he was committing sinful behavior (he wasn't) but because he didn't feel like he could be successful there.

I'd rather go to college where I'm conformable so I can focus on school.  I grew up Catholic so we had strict grooming policies throughout childhood. I grew my hair long and grew facial hair immediately after leaving. Never looked back. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Why not transfer to FSU and party all the time? (JK)   

 I love you Str8Shooter. Just saying. (playing, playing! You guys at FSU beat my boys silly week, so I really am in no position) 

I have no problem at all with the BYU rules-if you choose to go there, you play by their rules. 

But college is a time of great growth and self discovery. I found out I was no longer Catholic but LDS there  (though I didn't know it at the time), met LadyGator and some of my best friends. I'm glad I didn't have to worry about my appearance or dress code. 

 

[estradling75]

In all honesty...  people need to get out of the mindset that they have the "right" to do whatever they please at the expense of someone else.  And if they make an agreement and then break it they should not have to pay the consequence.

 

And that is exactly what this question boils down to.  If a person does not like the rules BYU has then they should look elsewhere.  If they do go to BYU and then decide to break the rules then they should be ready to face the consequence of that choice.

[Vort]

No, I am not talking about you in particular, OP, but I was just speaking to a missionary about this online! He said he "felt guilty" about not going to BYU. Not because he was committing sinful behavior (he wasn't) but because he didn't feel like he could be successful there.

 

BYU has gotten extremely -- some such as I would say absurdly -- competitive, to the point that it's as hard to get into as some Ivies. BYU has the perhaps dubious distinction of being the most-accepted school among incoming freshmen, which is to say that more people (as a percentage) accepted to BYU actually end up going there than any other school. As I recall, 87% of incoming freshmen accepted to BYU elected to attend; second place was Harvard, at 86%.

 

The point being, your missionary friend ought not feel guilty. Honestly, I wish more BYU students who didn't really want to be there would acknowledge the point and go somewhere else. No shame to them, and it opens a spot for someone else who really does want to be there.

[mirkwood]

it's okay to not go to BYU and still be an active, happy and legit LDS. 

 

 

 

Yep.  I doubt I am the only Utah alum on this site.

[Guest MormonGator]

BYU has gotten extremely -- some such as I would say absurdly -- competitive, to the point that it's as hard to get into as some Ivies. BYU has the perhaps dubious distinction of being the most-accepted school among incoming freshmen, which is to say that more people (as a percentage) accepted to BYU actually end up going there than any other school. As I recall, 87% of incoming freshmen accepted to BYU elected to attend; second place was Harvard, at 86%.

 

The point being, your missionary friend ought not feel guilty. Honestly, I wish more BYU students who didn't really want to be there would acknowledge the point and go somewhere else. No shame to them, and it opens a spot for someone else who really does want to be there.

 I totally agree. Well said. I don't think he is dealing with soul shattering guilt, just a bit of a downer. 

And you are so right about the "not being there" students. I wish students would go where they are comfortable. Comfortable students generally learn better. 

[bytor2112]

Of course non members attend and are welcome at BYU....

Edited December 4, 2015 by bytor2112

[beefche]

I was a non-member when I first attended BYU. Got a nice discount on my tuition when I became a member of the church. My non-member, a little anti, but really frugal father rejoiced when he saw the discount.....

[Jane_Doe]

BYU has gotten extremely -- some such as I would say absurdly -- competitive, to the point that it's as hard to get into as some Ivies. BYU has the perhaps dubious distinction of being the most-accepted school among incoming freshmen, which is to say that more people (as a percentage) accepted to BYU actually end up going there than any other school. As I recall, 87% of incoming freshmen accepted to BYU elected to attend; second place was Harvard, at 86%.

 

 

I was accepted to BYU but decided to go somewhere else.  BYU didn't even have a place for me to say "no thank you"!  I even called their registers office to decline... and they told me "just don't show up for classes".

[prisonchaplain]

I listened to a debate the other day...an old-fashioned Oxford style one, over at NPR.  The question:  Do liberals suppress diversity of speech on college campuses.  One of the liberal arguments saying it wasn't so is that conservatives don't complain about censorship at Liberty University or BYU.

 

The affirmative response?  "Yeah, right.  So, you sign up to attend BYU, and after a year or so, you think, wow, this school is, I don't know...awfully Mormon.  No, everyone knows what they are signing up for.  Likewise with Liberty.  However, you don't go to the Ivy League, or even most public universities, and expect to be told you are forbidden to say things like, "America is a land of opportunity," or, "Black Lives Matter, but so do all lives."

 

Private schools get to have their own rules.  Period. 

Edited December 5, 2015 by prisonchaplain

[Anddenex]

The point being, your missionary friend ought not feel guilty. Honestly, I wish more BYU students who didn't really want to be there would acknowledge the point and go somewhere else. No shame to them, and it opens a spot for someone else who really does want to be there.

 

Hind sight is 20/20 or so they say.  I wish I would have ended my pursuit of a career at BYU.  I am not a competitive learner.  I love learning; however, if you want to do well at BYU you have to be competitive in your studies, and I wasn't competitive enough to handle the many ridiculous tests I took.  

 

I think what people feel, they don't wan to be a failure, and recognizing a particular university isn't for you isn't failure.  This is why I don't teach my children a school they should attend.  We teach them about possibility, their goals, and then to seek education at a school that will help them reach that goal.  There were many good things that came from BYU (I met Mrs. Anddenex).  BYU is not for every LDS member, and it is OK to move on.  My favorite companion from my mission took this choice.  He left BYU, and was very successful at other schools.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Anddenex

[mordorbund]

I was a non-member when I first attended BYU. Got a nice discount on my tuition when I became a member of the church. My non-member, a little anti, but really frugal father rejoiced when he saw the discount.....

 

Beefche, would you mind sharing what you had to do to get your Ecclesiastical Endorsement signed and where you attended services while on campus?

[Jamie123]

I totally agree that as a private church-sponsored institution, BYU can make and enforce any rules it wants. (Within reason of course - the alleged former policy of withholding academic credit from departing homosexual students until they had submitted to electric "degayification" could be open to question.)

 

But consider two students:

 

Student A is a non-LDS Christian. He has an acceptable reference from his minister, and has agreed to live by the Mormon lifestyle during his time at BYU.

 

Student B is a former Mormon who still abides by all the moral standards of Mormonism, but who found (at some point while at BYU) that he could no longer believe that the Church is true. He applied for name removal and has now joined a different church. 

 

Both are living the same moral standards.

Neither believes that the LDS church is true.

 

Yet A is considered worthy to be a BYU student and B is not.

 

Why? What is the difference between them?

Edited December 9, 2015 by Jamie123

[Sunday21]

I think the difference is that exmormon is an exmormon. There is scripture in the Book of Mormon that says that those who have walked away from the church become more sinful than those who have never experienced the truth. I have noticed this myself- what do you think? Can you imagine what would happen if we did not have this rule? What percentage of members r less active? 50 percent? Imagine a large percentage of the byu student body being made up of inactive Mormons? It would not b a safe place to send your kids. Imagine the type of stories that would make the headlines. Also having a college that follows the policies of the church helps to show that it is possible eg the cheerleaders have longer hemlines so yes modesty is possible.

Maybe the church wanted to create a little bit of heaven on earth by only allowing active saints. I think having such a policy helps make the campus safer for the students. I think this policy encourages active parents to send their kids there.

[Jamie123]

I think the difference is that exmormon is an exmormon. There is scripture in the Book of Mormon that says that those who have walked away from the church become more sinful than those who have never experienced the truth.

 

How do you know that the 18/19/20-year-old "apostate" ever experienced "the truth"? I'm sure many 12-year-old kids are marched through baptism without any real understanding or belief, and only discover later that they have doubts. His own actual conversion (or otherwise) could still be in the future!

 

(And in case you think that's ignorance talking, I remember from my own days as an investigator a member giving a talk about how the Church meant nothing to him at all until he was already some way up the priesthood ladder.)

 

Maybe your average ex-Mormon is more likely to be sinful than a regular non-member, maybe not, but either way would it not it be far better to judge individuals on their own actions?

 

I have noticed this myself- what do you think? Can you imagine what would happen if we did not have this rule? What percentage of members r less active? 50 percent? Imagine a large percentage of the byu student body being made up of inactive Mormons? It would not b a safe place to send your kids.

 

Firstly I'm not talking about inactive Mormons - I'm talking about ex-Mormons who have left the church but have maintained their moral standards, and are in good ecclesiastical standing elsewhere. Perhaps there are few such people - I don't know. But would it not be better to expel a student based on his/her moral depravity than on whether or not they belong to a certain demographic?

 

Imagine the type of stories that would make the headlines. Also having a college that follows the policies of the church helps to show that it is possible eg the cheerleaders have longer hemlines so yes modesty is possible.

 

This is a false dichotomy. You're assuming that allowing ex-Mormons to remain at BYU would necessarily entail lowering the honour standards to the level you say ex-Mormons would wish them to be. Why not require the same high moral standards from Mormons and ex-Mormons alike, and only bring in discipline/expulsion when these standards are not met?

 

Maybe the church wanted to create a little bit of heaven on earth by only allowing active saints. I think having such a policy helps make the campus safer for the students. I think this policy encourages active parents to send their kids there.

 

If by "saints" you mean "latter day saints" this is quite clearly not the policy - as is evident from the case of beefche.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Jamie123

[Guest]

If someone has left the Church, they have a problem with either its doctrine or its administration. The fact is, those who leave usually have a bone to pick, and many will say so at any opportunity. I'd say that regular conversation with an ex-Mormon would be more spiritually dangerous to a college student than someone who is of another faith (but was never LDS). 

 

But I don't think that's the crux of the issue. I agree that consequences are higher for those who have made and broken covenants, than those who never made the covenants to begin with. By college, people have an understanding of those covenants, even if they were "only" 8 when they made them. My baptized children who are not near college age have enough understanding of it. Heavenly Father believed that 8 was old enough to be accountable for choices, and that's good enough for me. 

 

Not to mention the fact that many who attend BYU are not just baptized, but endowed. Walking away from those covenants is far more grave. Witnessing a couple in my family who have done that, I'd wonder why such would even want to stay at BYU. As I understand it, the Gospel is woven into every class and many discussions, whatever the subject; so they would be in the position of either having to keep quiet, or constantly be at battle. Neither is the best scenario for anyone. 

[estradling75]

But consider two students:

 

Student A is a non-LDS Christian. He has an acceptable reference from his minister, and has agreed to live by the Mormon lifestyle during his time at BYU.

 

Student B is a former Mormon who still abides by all the moral standards of Mormonism, but who found (at some point while at BYU) that he could no longer believe that the Church is true. He applied for name removal and has now joined a different church. 

 

Both are living the same moral standards.

Neither believes that the LDS church is true.

 

Yet A is considered worthy to be a BYU student and B is not.

 

Why? What is the difference between them?

 

 

This shows that you simply don't understand how the process works.  If you go to a religious institution and then change religious affiliation you should expect to have some serious questions on about how firm you really are to those "new beliefs" given that you just tossed your old ones.

 

A hypothetical LDS BYU student who changes while at BYU to another religion can appeal the removal from the school.  However the burden to make the appeal in on the shoulders of the person who changed, and so is the burden for them to show that they are and should be classified as a acceptable Non member student.  While it is not easy it is doable.

 

However I would wager that most students who change are unwilling to take that burden on and would rather complain and use the removal from school (because of their own actions and choices) as proof that the church is bad/wrong

Edited December 9, 2015 by estradling75

[mordorbund]

Why aren't we discussing the elephant in the policy? A student who has signed the Honor Code as agreed to live the standards on and off campus. That means no beards or shaggy hair during any of the breaks!  

[Guest]

 Then I broke the honor code.  I took off my garments every time I took a shower!

[Just_A_Guy]

I totally agree that as a private church-sponsored institution, BYU can make and enforce any rules it wants. (Within reason of course - the alleged former policy of withholding academic credit from departing homosexual students until they had submitted to electric "degayification" could be open to question.)

 

But consider two students:

 

Student A is a non-LDS Christian. He has an acceptable reference from his minister, and has agreed to live by the Mormon lifestyle during his time at BYU.

 

Student B is a former Mormon who still abides by all the moral standards of Mormonism, but who found (at some point while at BYU) that he could no longer believe that the Church is true. He applied for name removal and has now joined a different church. 

 

Both are living the same moral standards.

Neither believes that the LDS church is true.

 

Yet A is considered worthy to be a BYU student and B is not.

 

Why? What is the difference between them?

 

I think it's easy to give short-shrift to just what horrendous money-suckers educational institutions can be (Gordon Hinckley at one point publicly referred to their being "so terribly expensive").  When I was at BYU, I worked for a year on a student crew that maintained the HVAC systems in BYU's various buildings.  The HVAC system in the Benson Building alone consists of forcing air past a wall consisting of two hundred fifty air filters, each about twenty-four inches square and nine or twelve inches deep.  Those filters each cost about $45-$50 from the supplier, and they have to be changed out every six months.  It took us about a week to do the Benson Building, and when it was all done $10,000 of used air filters were in dumpsters.  And then we moved onto the Wilkinson Center and did it all over again.

 

Into that reality comes two fundamental truths:

 

1.  PR statements aside, BYU is not an altruistic institution and it does not offer education merely for education's own sake.  BYU exists to serve the Mormon Church, which it does primarily by making its students into more devoted Mormons who will strengthen the diaspora of Mormon congregations to which they will eventually return.

2.  Average private university tuition in the US is $32K/year.  BYU non-member tuition rate is $10.3K/year.  Non-Mormon BYU students are still receiving a heavy subsidy from the LDS Church.

 

So, coming back to your hypothetical:  Student A simply isn't moving into Mormonism's embrace and the LDS Church has made a judgment call (for now, at least) that they will continue to subsidize Student A's experience, at least partially in the hopes that that student will convert to Mormonism within the next 3-4 years.  But Student B has affirmatively rejected Mormonism after being more intimately familiar with its theology and practice than Student A ever was.  While we hope Student B eventually returns, the simple fact is that such a return isn't likely to happen within the timeframe that your average college degree is obtained.  So, the Church faces a conundrum:  Do they spend $20-$80K in educational subsidies trying to buy the disaffected Mormon's allegiances back?  Or do they give the subsidy to another student who is more willing to assist the Church and BYU in their fundamental mission--or at least, hasn't abjectly refused to do so?

Edited December 9, 2015 by Just_A_Guy