Can men and women who are not married to each other be friends?

[Crypto]

Like I say with some things in regards to the church .....if someone doesn't think they should do something for whatever reason....then don't do it.

But don't go about trying to force your agency on others....if you try and force it....it isn't agency anymore. (Yes, force includes ostracizing and backbiting in this case)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

My next door neighbor won't come in the house unless my husband is home, and won't let me through his door unless his wife is home. I think it's a good rule, except that he's more than old enough to be my father and in fact has acted as a father figure when I needed one lately. 

 

Eowyn brought up a good point that was on my mind...it seems like many here are thinking about friendships with people who are close in age.  I have friends of both sexes and of various ages.  

 

For me the difference between a friend and an acquaintance is simply whether I would feel comfortable calling them if I needed a favor....a ride to the store, or call when I need a shoulder to cry on.   

 

I think it was Omegamaster that said if you wouldn't go bra shopping (and other examples) they are an acquaintance not a friend.  I disagree.  I have women friends that I wouldn't do some of the things he mentioned with, but I still count them as friends.  

[Vort]

As an adult man, I have no truly close friends outside my wife and immediate family. One of my close friends is a man I Skype with who lives in Italy and whom I have never met before in the flesh. I consider myself "close" friends with a few men who are or have been members of my ward; but "close" in in quotes because they are not close the way my close friends were when I was twelve. I do occasionally talk about personal and even sensitive things with them, because I trust them. But we are not "best buddies" like I had in my childhood.

 

I have spent the last two weeks in Hyderabad, India (preparing to leave for home in a few hours). I have just loved India, almost every aspect of it. (Except traffic. I haven't loved traffic. But I have enjoyed the way Indians drive and use their horns as communication devices rather than expressions of frustration and anger.) One thing I have seen that is not uncommon is for men walking together to hold hands. Seems strange at first, but why shouldn't men hold hands in friendship or brotherhood? Who decreed that hand-holding among men was limited to fathers with young sons and homosexual couples?

 

I am becoming convinced that we in American (perhaps even Western) life have all but lost the intimate connection between men that has been a hallmark of civilized behavior throughout human history. I recall the intimate friendship Jesus shared with his disciples, that went far beyond a fond regard and a warm handshake. I think of king David and the intimate friendships he had with other men, such as his transformative friendship with Jonathan, the son of Saul, David's mortal enemy. I read the descriptions of some friendships in the Book of Mormon, such as between Moroni and Lehi, and I think I detect that kind of true love. Some moderns like to suggest that such friendships imply homosexuality, but I think this is a perverse interpretation based primarily on wishful thinking and the ancient Greek model of sexuality, which embraced homosexuality and pederasty.

 

When Jesus says that we can become his sons, we have some idea what he means. When he says we can become his friends, I strongly suspect this has cultural overtones that escape us -- not because the ideas are hidden, but because our culture has not taught us what that even means. Imagine a culture where mutual respect and deep love were not expected in, or even thought of as a normal part of, a marriage between a man and a woman. How much richness, depth, and beauty would people in such a culture be missing out on? It's heartbreaking to consider. Yet we may be in much the same situation regarding deep and lasting adult friendships, women too but mostly men.

[Guest]

Like I say with some things in regards to the church .....if someone doesn't think they should do something for whatever reason....then don't do it.

 

This is the primary reason I started the "playing with fire" line.  The way the OP phrased things, it gave me the impression that he was already suspecting something of himself and was just looking for justification.  Hence I said, "If I'm reading you right."

[mrmarklin]

No.

[Guest MormonGator]

As an adult man, I have no truly close friends outside my wife and immediate family.

 Sorry you feel this way Vort. I really, really am.I'm close with my immediate family too, in particular two of my sisters and little brother.  I have another sister that "got away"   

But I can't imagine what my life would be like without my friends. I had no real friends growing up, but I've noticed that since I became an adult my friendships have gotten far, far more enjoyable and much, much deeper than ever before.  That's why when people talk about childhood friends, I don't understand what they are talking about. No, that's not an insult to anyone who is still close with them, just my own personal subjective feelings and thoughts.  Friendship is such a wonderful blessing in my life. These are people who, oddly, choose to hang out with little old Gator because they enjoy my company. No, I can't understand why either.

As an adult, my friendships aren't forced. Growing up in a small, insulated world, it was totally different. Like Bart Simpson says about Milhouse, they were friends out of convenience. I felt terrible guilt when  people hung on to their childhood friends, because mine stopped talking to each other once HS was over. We've tried to talk as adults, but it's hopeless. We are vastly different people now. 

 The internet helped. I found friends with mutual interests, values, goals and desires. My"online friends" (I hate that term, a friend is a friend) have evolved into deep and truly special friendships. 

Joining the church helped a great deal, as it did with virtually everything in my life. I've developed wonderful friends inside the church, but oddly, it's helped out my friendships outside the church. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by MormonGator

[estradling75]

I think a lot of differences in this thread are going to boil down what we mean by "friend"...  That can range from a friend is someone I talked to once and we seemed to get along... therefore we are friends...  to  this person helped me move a dead body once so yeah they are a friend.  And of course everything in between those two extremes.

 

I would also expect the broader the definition of "friend" a person has, more likely they are to have "friends" of the opposite gender and be perfectly ok with it.  Whereas those with more restrictive definitions are less likely to do so.

[Guest]

I think a lot of differences in this thread are going to boil down what we mean by "friend"...  That can range from a friend is someone I talked to once and we seemed to get along... therefore we are friends...  to  this person helped me move a dead body once so yeah they are a friend.  And of course everything in between those two extremes.

 

I would also expect the broader the definition of "friend" a person has, more likely they are to have "friends" of the opposite gender and be perfectly ok with it.  Whereas those with more restrictive definitions are less likely to do so.

 

Are you saying that it's the difference between "do you like her?" and "do you LIKE her?"  

Edited December 18, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

 Exactly. 

It's also a different kind of love. I love my wife in a totally different way than I love my sisters and brother, but in the end, it's still love. 

Read "The Four Loves" by CS Lewis. It's a great book, and I think it would explain a lot better than I can! 

 

I understand your point on this one, but I'm going to give you something to think about.

 

LOVE - a word a lot of people don't quite have the same understanding of.

 

LOVE to me is that love that Christ commanded us - Love God, Love your Neighbors as Yourself.  That love.  Christ didn't say, Love you Husband, and then Love everybody else differently. 

 

Now, I LOVE my husband.  Completely.  I love my sister.  Completely.  That word Love in those 2 sentences are EXACTLY the same.

 

So, I don't see "Four Loves".  There is only ONE LOVE.  And that LOVE is my pure desire to bring both of those people closer to Christ.

 

Now, how is my love for my husband different from my love for my sister?  It is not the LOVE that is different.  It is the MARITAL COVENANT that is different.  I do not have a marital covenant with my sister.  Therefore, there are things that I do under that marital covenant that I don't do anywhere outside of it.

 

For example - I can only express my LOVE for another through sexual expression under the marital covenant.  So, I don't desire to express my love for another in that manner except for my husband.

 

Another example - I raise my children under the marital covenant with my husband.  So, I don't desire to raise children with anyone outside of it.

 

But as far as LOVE goes.  I intend to follow Christ's commandment to LOVE my neighbors - that is everyone... friends, enemies, sisters, brothers, children... AND MY HUSBAND.

 

Now, I'm a very flawed person.  I am very limited.  So, in my covenant to Christ to Love my Neighbors, I concentrate on loving my husband first.  Because, if I can't even do that perfectly, there's no sense in focusing on anybody else.  It is when I am very comfortable with my Love for my husband that I can then expand that love to the rest of my neighbors in its own expressions appropriate for our type of relationship.

[Guest]

And about friendship.

 

It's silly to say you can't have friends other than your spouse.

 

To me, if you can't be friends, then you can't LOVE.

 

That is breaking the covenant to Christ to Love Others As You Love Yourself.  The covenant is not Love Your Spouse As You Love Yourself.  It is Love Your Neighbors - your husband is only one of those neighbors.

 

Now, if you can only love those who you want to have sex with, then there's nothing different between you and a homosexual demanding that Gay Marriage has to be allowed because they should be allowed to Love.... that's a statement saying that a person can only Love the person they want to have sex with.  That's of the devil and not of Christ.

[Guest]

Anatess,

 

I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of the question involved.  You're taking it literally "CAN" we be friends.  Well, of course we can.  Of course it's possible  Yes, of course we have many examples (several on this thread) of completely platonic male/female relationships that are thriving.

 

The fact though is that as human beings we tend to mix up feelings quite easily.  And it is simply too easy for things to go the wrong way in the majority of circumstances.  And while it is not forbidden to have friends of the opposite sex, I still think that in too many situations, it is (I'll say it again) playing with fire.

 

Does the evolved, more spiritually enlightened man have the ability to overlook anything physical and have a very close emotional relationship with a very physically appealing, emotionally satisfying, spiritually enlightened female?  Yes, he does.  But that is not the average man or woman.

 

I applaud both Gator, Godless, and others for being able to pull it off.  And to hear them tell it, it is fairly easy for them.  But to us less evolved individuals who are too aware of the faults of men, we don't want to tempt fate.  There is a distance that must be kept that is apparently farther than what you are indicating (see posts from estradling, pale rider, and NT).

 

And maybe it is a question of true LOVE, i.e. charity.  I guess (as Paul states) I'm still a spiritual child.  But would you tell a child to go and start driving a maxi-van?  No, you want them to grow up first.  Unfortunately, many people (both male and female, but let's face it, there are more males that fit) grow up physically, but don't grow up spiritually.  As much as I know about the gospel, as much wisdom as I've doled out to friends and family, I'm still a spiritual child.  I'm learning and growing.  In the meantime, I'm trying to avoid some pitfalls that I know I'm prone to.  I'd appreciate it if people didn't accuse me of ... whatever... for doing so.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

 

Does the evolved, more spiritually enlightened man have the ability to overlook anything physical and have a very close emotional relationship with a very physically appealing, emotionally satisfying, spiritually enlightened female?  Yes, he does.  But that is not the average man or woman.

 

I disagree with this.  My entire family - Mother, Father, Brothers, Sisters, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, In-Laws, etc. etc.... and my Husband ALL have very close relationships with friends of any gender.

 

There's a saying that, You must be Filipino when you have more Family than branches in your Family Tree.  We have so many "Uncles" and "Aunts" and "Cousins" that became such because "My great grandmother and his great grandmother were seatmates in kindergarten".

 

My husband (not Filipino) have best friends - male and female - before we met.  I have best friends - male and female - before we met.  They didn't just disappear just because we both got married.  They're now my kids' "aunts" and "uncles".

 

These are the Average relationships in my expanded family's long history.  Having sexual desires for a friend of the opposite gender when married is the Exception.  It is such an Exception as a matter of fact as to be a cause to get ostracized out of the family.

Edited December 18, 2015 by anatess

[classylady]

I know myself.  I don't think it's a good idea for me to have close friends of the opposite gender.  I don't think I could keep it platonic.  And, I'm female!  So, I keep my male acquaintances at a respectful distance.

 

I do have one male friend/acquaintance that I chat with on the phone, Facebook, or text, about once or twice a year.  My husband knows about him.  He lives out of State.  We mainly chat to get caught up on some of news of the missionaries from our mission.  That's it.  There may even be years that go by where we do not chat.  We did go out on a few dates right after our missions, 35+ years ago, but nothing came of it.  We keep it strictly platonic.  But, I know it could be more than platonic if circumstances were where we were single again.  I am very careful not to let this develop any further because it could be playing with fire.

[mdfxdb]

We also have those memebers who feel that a male and female riding in a car together isn't allowed.

handbook 2: 13.6.24

 

A man and a woman should not travel alone together for Church activities, meetings, or assignments unless they are married to each other or are both single.

[Guest]

ClassyLady,

 

You remind me of an old friend of mine.  (No, I'm not him). We had dated just a few times before I met Mrs. Carb.  She was one of the "could have been's".  She had a special tenderness in the way she hugged me that let me know how she felt about me.  But logistics kept us apart and we both moved on.  I practically forgot about her.

 

Years later we came across her AND her husband.  I had lost all the "old feelings".  I assumed she had as well.  We invited them over for dinner to catch up and establish a new friendship since we were in the same city now. I was looking forward to having a guy friend outside the family.  I thought it was quite innocent.

 

As they were leaving both of us gave them each a hug.  Then I felt it.  She hugged me the way she used to.  DANGER!  DANGER!  I wasn't even thinking about it.  But that hug drummed up some old feelings I didn't even know were there.  I tried to shrug it off like I didn't notice.  I noticed.  Obviously, I couldn't ever talk to her or see her again.

 

So, to all those on the other side of the argument, please understand that I do not mean that every man out there is thinking about sex all the time.  I don't think that is true.  But human emotion is a fickle thing.  And if you do not have a firm grip, it can easily get away from you.  This is what it means to "bridle your passions".

Edited December 18, 2015 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

handbook 2: 13.6.24

 

A man and a woman should not travel alone together for Church activities, meetings, or assignments unless they are married to each other or are both single.

 I think you need to use good ole' common sense. When I hang out with my BFF, we don't hold hands, or lurk in strange hotels. We'll embrace, kiss quickly on the cheek and then start talking. She's also a non member, so she doesn't have to play by our rules. 

[mdfxdb]

handbook 2: 13.6.24

 

A man and a woman should not travel alone together for Church activities, meetings, or assignments unless they are married to each other or are both single.

 

 I think you need to use good ole' common sense. When I hang out with my BFF, we don't hold hands, or lurk in strange hotels. We'll embrace, kiss quickly on the cheek and then start talking. She's also a non member, so she doesn't have to play by our rules. 

 

My handbook reference was in reply to a comment regarding members supposed thoughts on the matter.  In official church capacities, the handbook is very clear.

 

I'm not sure it applies to dealings with non-members.

 

In general men and women cannot be friends.  There are studies which prove this out.  All other statements/anecdotes are exceptions.  

Edited December 18, 2015 by mdfxdb

[David13]

Anatess
I think you are missing a lot of what some of the posts here were about.
Dc

Edited December 18, 2015 by David13

[Palerider]

But don't go about trying to force your agency on others....if you try and force it....it isn't agency anymore. (Yes, force includes ostracizing and backbiting in this case)

Why would I try to force someone ? Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.

[Palerider]

This is the primary reason I started the "playing with fire" line.  The way the OP phrased things, it gave me the impression that he was already suspecting something of himself and was just looking for justification.  Hence I said, "If I'm reading you right."

I served as the Stake Young Men's President for about 6yrs. There was a sister in our Ward who was serving as the Stake Primary President. Our Stake is spread out all over southern Missouri. Where I live it's 90 miles to the stake center. Her and I often traveled together. My wife and I are good friends with this sister and her husband. Our spouses are the ones that told us to ride together. I did have a few members pull me aside to tell me I was wrong in doing this. Should have seen their faces when I told them to speak with my wife because she was the one who said I could.

[Palerider]

handbook 2: 13.6.24

 

A man and a woman should not travel alone together for Church activities, meetings, or assignments unless they are married to each other or are both single.

I am a sinner

[Guest]

In general men and women cannot be friends.  There are studies which prove this out.  All other statements/anecdotes are exceptions.  

 

This is such an alien world to me.  There are entire countries over there on the east side of the Pacific that they must not have studied.

 

"Men and Women Cannot Be Friends" says your world view is sexualized to the point that decent people cannot have relationships that doesn't become sexualized.

 

This is not the norm in Asia and I have not seen this as a norm in my neck of the woods in America.  It may be true in American Colleges.  When I was going through my masters, lots of kids in the college bed-hop.  Pretty sad commentary of that college's life.  I also see this in the TV Show Arrow - where the lead character has gone to bed with all of the female characters except his sister.

Edited December 18, 2015 by anatess

[pam]

I have many female friends. Each of them have a different purpose in my friendships with them but we are still friends.  

 

The same goes with male friends.  To those that don't believe that male and female can be just friends that is just fine.  But I believe they can be.

[Palerider]

I have many female friends. Each of them have a different purpose in my friendships with them but we are still friends.  

 

The same goes with male friends.  To those that don't believe that male and female can be just friends that is just fine.  But I believe they can be.

Amen Sista !!!!!!!

[Guest]

P.S.

 

My bestest friend is a male Marine, a devoted husband to his wife.  My husband's bestest friend is a gay guy who was my good friend in college.  He just broke up with his male partner and is currently trying out celibacy.  He's staying at my house for a few weeks over Christmas.

 

One would think if male and female cannot be friends, then a gay guy and a male cannot be friends either, right?

Edited December 18, 2015 by anatess