Challenging church history question?


LadyHanley93

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I agree with you in principle. The difficulty comes in when we have no proof either way. Take Bill Cosby for example, 50 women have accused him of rape, but some people still want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Rapists rarely confess, but many people seem to hold out for that confession if the accused is a beloved comedian or any sort of athlete.

My peace comes from my faith that the Lord will make everything right in His due time.

BTW,I added a link to my previous comment that I think is a valuable addition to this discussion.

 

The legal system is required to give him the benefit of the doubt.  I know that if I had "50" women accusing me of a crime I would want people to "assume innocent until proven guilty."  I know that if "50" people accused Literate Parakeet that she would want people to "assume innocent until proven guilty".  Therefore holding Bill Cosby or anyone else to a lesser standard  makes us of guilty of the sin of hypocrisy.

 

Plus the scriptures are clear that the Judgement we judge is the judgement we will be judged by and I really do not want hypocrisy to be what condemns me when it matters.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

The legal system is required to give him the benefit of the doubt. I know that if I had "50" women accusing me of a crime I would want people to "assume innocent until proven guilty." I know that if "50" people accused Literate Parakeet that she would want people to "assume innocent until proven guilty". Therefore holding Bill Cosby or anyone else to a lesser standard makes us of guilty of the sin of hypocrisy.

Plus the scriptures are clear that the Judgement we judge is the judgement we will be judged by and I really do not want hypocrisy to be what condemns me when it matters.

And what of those 50 women (If they are telling the truth, as I believe they are, what do you say to them?

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Guest MormonGator

My peace comes from my faith that the Lord will make everything right in His due time.

 

 Exactly. Justice delayed in this world doesn't mean it won't be justice denied. 

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And what of those 50 women [who accuse Bill Cosby of raping them] (If they are telling the truth, as I believe they are, what do you say to them?

That they should let the system grind its grist.

We may assume they are truthing. We may not assume he is guilty until all the facts are in.

And, irrespective of whether they are truthing or no, they'll have to get over it because the system's "justice" will do them no good whatsoever. That peace can only come from Christ.

How we react to the events of life are what make us who we are. It is not the events themselves.

Lehi

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Guest LiterateParakeet

That they should let the system grind its grist.

We may assume they are truthing. We may not assume he is guilty until all the facts are in.

And, irrespective of whether they are truthing or no, they'll have to get over it because the system's "justice" will do them no good whatsoever. That peace can only come from Christ.

How we react to the events of life are what make us who we are. It is not the events themselves.

Lehi

You sure seem to dimiss their pain easily.

Is your counsel to men who are falsely accused the same?

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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And what of those 50 women (If they are telling the truth, as I believe they are, what do you say to them?

 

 

LeSeller pretty much nailed it...  I'd support them in their efforts to get an investigation (as much as the law allows) and support them in their efforts to Heal and move on through the atonement of Christ. 

 

To require me to make and vocalize and "unrighteous judgement" (per Elder Oaks talk) to show my support is not something they are entitled to nor does Christ require me to give it to them.

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You sure seem to dimiss their pain easily.

There's little or nothing anyone can do for it. We are to bear one another's burdens and comfort those who need it, but, in the end, it's all really up to them.

Only they are in control of their emotions and feelings.

 

Is your counsel to men who are falsely accused the same?

Exactly. Life just happens: if you can control it, do so; if not, get over it. If you can control it, you'll find it is inside you.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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You sure seem to dimiss their pain easily.

Is your counsel to men who are falsely accused the same?

 

So if we don't fall in lock step with you we dismiss others pain?

 

Men have the same options as women ...  There is always the option for the one being accused to make an accusation of their own. It follows the same rules and as the same entitlements as any accusation

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Guest LiterateParakeet

LeSeller pretty much nailed it... I'd support them in their efforts to get an investigation (as much as the law allows) and support them in their efforts to Heal and move on through the atonement of Christ.

To require me to make and vocalize and "unrighteous judgement" (per Elder Oaks talk) to show my support is not something they are entitled to nor does Christ require me to give it to them.

Who is requiring that of you?

Apparently you assume I am, but.if that is so you have not understood me at all. I'm talking about compassion for victims, not vegence. The link I posted above should clear things up. But it's long, so if you don't want to read it -heres the synopsis: a teenage girl tells the police she was raped, they think there are inconsistencies in her story, her foster mom thinks she's just attention seeking. She ends up in court for lying to the police.

But eventually the serial rapist is caught and he has a picture of her tied up.

Did this girl get the support she needed? No, not in the least.

I read another article about a woman who was raped by her boss. He claims it was consensual. So no justice or support for her.

You talk about justice and proof, have you seen the articles about the thousands of rape kits in each state that are untested.

I'm not asking you to go on a witch hunt, Im asking for a little compassion for rape victims--most of whom will never get justice in this life.

I'm asking you for compassion for the survivors here on the board.

But hey, if I'm asking too much....

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Is your counsel to men who are falsely accused the same?

On the general subject, what do you feel we should do about the far greater number of men who are raped (often, but not mostly, by women)?

Should we simply believe that these women raped the men, or do we need to investigate the charges before announcing that we need to comfort the victim and repudiate that heinous women who violated them?

Men are raped more than women, both in absolute numbers and proportionally. Most rapes happen in prison, by other men. Many are in schools: boys raping boys, or female teachers raping the male students, some in the military, but by far, more men get raped than women. Do we have the same compassion for the male victims as for the female?

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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Who is requiring that of you?

Apparently you assume I am, but.if that is so you have not understood me at all. I'm talking about compassion for victims, not vegence. The link I posted above should clear things up. But it's long, so if you don't want to read it -heres the synopsis: a teenage girl tells the police she was raped, they think there are inconsistencies in her story, her foster mom thinks she's just attention seeking. She ends up in court for lying to the police.

But eventually the serial rapist is caught and he has a picture of her tied up.

Did this girl get the support she needed? No, not in the least.

I read another article about a woman who was raped by her boss. He claims it was consensual. So no justice or support for her.

You talk about justice and proof, have you seen the articles about the thousands of rape kits in each state that are untested.

I'm not asking you to go on a witch hunt, Im asking for a little compassion for rape victims--most of whom will never get justice in this life.

I'm asking you for compassion for the survivors here on the board.

But hey, if I'm asking too much....

 

As a stated before...  I have no problem with compassion to those making accusation.  My problem is the REQUIREMENT that that compassion must have as a part of it a condemnation of the accused.  That is utterly false. 

 

You say you agree when stated like I just did.  But then you accuse others of dismissing the pain of the accusers.  You flat out state your opinion that a guy is guilty before a trial, and you accuse the Church of having a "Rape Culture".  Those are all wordings, phrases and statement that show that you are making the case that only possible way to show compassion to the accusers to the flat out accept their statements as gospel truth with out fail. 

 

All the stories you cherry-pick are designed to reinforce that idea.  Completely ignoring the stories were the accuser lied, but those lies destroyed lives and careers, because people did exactly what you are encouraging them to do. But then you deny that is your intent to have happen.

 

The idea that we need to show compassion to all especially those that are hurting is fundamental to the the gospel.  The idea that that compassion has to take a particular form for it to be compassion is not.

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 There is no condemnation when there is no voluntary participation.

Rape is not voluntary. Therefore there is no condemnation to those who are raped.

While the language isn't as soft and compassionate as most people would like, I'm apparently not reading this quite the same way as those who don't like it.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Men are raped more than women, both in absolute numbers and proportionally. Most rapes happen in prison, by other men. Many are in schools: boys raping boys, or female teachers raping the male students, some in the military, but by far, more men get raped than women. Do we have the same compassion for the male victims as for the female?

Lehi

That's quite a claim. Do you have some way to back it up?

Do I have compassion for male victims, of course, I do. Why do you even need to ask?

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Guest LiterateParakeet

As a stated before... I have no problem with compassion to those making accusation. My problem is the REQUIREMENT that that compassion must have as a part of it a condemnation of the accused. That is utterly false.

You say you agree when stated like I just did. But then you accuse others of dismissing the pain of the accusers. You flat out state your opinion that a guy is guilty before a trial, and you accuse the Church of having a "Rape Culture". Those are all wordings, phrases and statement that show that you are making the case that only possible way to show compassion to the accusers to the flat out accept their statements as gospel truth with out fail.

All the stories you cherry-pick are designed to reinforce that idea. Completely ignoring the stories were the accuser lied, but those lies destroyed lives and careers, because people did exactly what you are encouraging them to do. But then you deny that is your intent to have happen.

The idea that we need to show compassion to all especially those that are hurting is fundamental to the the gospel. The idea that that compassion has to take a particular form for it to be compassion is not.

I'm the one cherry picking? Interesting, you didn't have a problem with Lehi cherry picking when he agreed with you.

I think we're going in circles now.

I agree to disagree.

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I'm the one cherry picking? Interesting, you didn't have a problem with Lehi cherry picking when he agreed with you.

I think we're going in circles now.

I agree to disagree.

 

I have stated my position quite clearly and I have not presented any stories as a summary of my position.  Whereas you have used the terms Rape Culture... Dismissing other pains... and had issues with the assumption that somehow your position might change it if the genders were swap.... A accusation you were more than happy to questions others on...

 

So maybe when you realize that it is not acceptable to "do unto others that which you would not have done unto you" we can stop going in circles

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On 12/20/2015 at 0:48 PM, LiterateParakeet said:

That's quite a claim. Do you have some way to back it up?

Yes.

 

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.ca/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html

Professor Eugene Kanin (a feminist icon, until this study) researched a mid-sized US city over nine years: 41% of all rape claims were false.

He also found that 50% of all rape claims at two large [unnamed] universities were proven false without the use of polygraphs (by cross examination, investigation, etc.).

USAF found that 27% of rape accusers recanted (does not mean that all were false: there are other reasons for recanting). Independent studies show it is 60% false in military.

In USmerica, Canada, and New Zealand studies show that 10% of rape claims are false.

FBI shows that women lie about rape more than about other crimes. It is erroneous to assume that only a small number of rape claims (by women) are false because the evidence is to the contrary.

In 2008, 216,000 men raped in prison (not rapes, victims, most raped multiple times. There are more rapes in prison than all other places. US first country in the world to count more man raped than women. (Don't blame the victim: only 8% of people in jail are there for violent crimes. Most US prisoners are in for non-violent drug charges and many of them are falsely accused and convicted by fraud.)

In 2010, 8,600 reported sexual assault victims in the US military were female, and 10,700 were male. The military estimates that less than 1 in five is reported, making it 63,000 soldiers* raped each year (over 5%).

* Includes sailors, marines and airmen, too.

 

Quote

Do I have compassion for male victims, of course, I do. Why do you even need to ask?

You don't seem to accept that men can be raped, that men are raped more than women are, and most of all, you appear to reject the notion of false rape accusations.

No one here believes that the victim of an actual rape is culpable. We all share your compassion for these people and would do what we could for them.

The problem, as I see it, is that rape is over-charged, that victims often want to play their woe-is-me card forever, and that men are often accused falsely of rape. This last is worrisome for a variety of reasons.

When this is the case, the woman who makes the false charge does not pay any price for her lying, and the innocent man must live the rest of his life in the glare or her accusation, no matter if proven innocent or even if she later recants. Where is the compassion for him?

And, as mentioned earlier, most people don't even realize that rape more often is a crime against a man than it is against a woman. Men don't usually whine about it, as it makes them look weak. When the perpetrator is another man, it's vile, and most of us agree and would (were we to know) show him compassion. But when the assailant is a woman, we secretly think "Wow, what a lucky guy!"

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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Murder is the unwarranted taking of a life.

In places with governments claiming the monopoly on the use of lethal force, your private retribution and punishment would be legally murder, but not morally so. At least as I see it.

Lehi

 

This is somewhat my position. And this was essentially what I meant when I said I don't believe I'd be in violation of any Celestial law.

 

However, if I'm honest with myself, I'd have to say that as passionate a person as I am, and as passionate as such a topic is, I would have to admit that I might be seeking to end his life out of pure rage rather than a sense of justice.

Edited by Guest
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Guest LiterateParakeet

First you've made some assumptions about me that have no basis in anything I've said in this thread. I was going to discuss that the the other info you shared until I got to this:

The problem, as I see it, is that rape is over-charged, that victims often want to play their woe-is-me card forever, and that men are often accused falsely of rape. This last is worrisome for a variety of reasons.

When this is the case, the woman who makes the false charge does not pay any price for her lying, and the innocent man must live the rest of his life in the glare or her accusation, no matter if proven innocent or even if she later recants. Where is the compassion for him?

Lehi

With this I can see that there is no point in further discussion between us. We have irreconcilable differences. I'm going to walk away from this one.

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Yes.

In USmerica, Canada, and New Zeeland studies show that 10% of rape claims are false.

FBI shows that women lie about rape more than about other crimes. It is erroneous to assume that only a small number of rape claims (by women) are false because the evidence is to the contrary.

 

The data that i've reviewed in the past has suggested that the numbers are nearly equal between the genders. There is significant bias problems in the stat collection (such as gang rapes being counted as 1 versus many, counting male sexual assault as something other than rape or not at all, rejection of rape charges of women [because she must be lying, even the accusation is true], victim blaming happening to both genders, under reporting and much much more)

I haven't considered what the false reporting might generate for the margin of error. So when I feel I have time, I'll have to look into it.

My personal conclusion on this is that people tend to polarize by gender, feel rejected, and fight among each other as a result. Rather than rallying together, each side whether they realize it or not introduce ideas, laws, and a culture which rather than helping stop the problem end up contributing to the problem.

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