DH's internet habits...how worried should I be?


MormonMama
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You may be confused about what porn is.  There's a good LDS video that teaches kids about porn at https://www.lds.org/youth/video/what-should-i-do-when-i-see-pornography?lang=eng

 

At the 1:35 mark it teaches "pornography means bad pictures of people with little or no clothes on."  This supports JojoBag's statement that "racy photos, including bikini shots, lingerie and other such filth are pornography".

 

One of the points of the video is that when you encounter it you should immediately "call it what it is". 

 

If the images are "racy" with little clothes on, they are porn.

 

In the "True to the Faith" book, Chastity chapter (https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/chastity?lang=eng) in the "Stay away from pornography" section it teaches "Do not view, read, or listen to anything that depicts or describes the human body or sexual conduct in a way that can arouse sexual feelings."

Wow you must never leave your house or turn on the TV ever. How do you eat? Just curious? I mean when your buying groceries and the latest issue of Cosmopolitan is staring at you in the check out line do you rush to your car and call the bishop because you glanced at a magazine cover? What about Woman's health? Golf digest when they have a female cover? (see the Lexi Thompson cover).

 

My goodness people.....

Edited by omegaseamaster75
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Wow you must never leave your house or turn on the TV ever. How do you eat? Just curious? I mean when your buying groceries and the latest issue of Cosmopolitan is staring at you in the check out line do you rush to your car and call the bishop? Or Woman's health? Golf digest when they have a female cover? (see the Lexi Thompson cover).

 

My goodness people.....

 

When I encounter such images such as at the grocery store, I call it what it is and turn to look at something else.  I'm not afraid to call it what it is.  It is pornography.

 

Why would I call the Bishop?  He already knows there's pornography all around.  If he wants to find some, he can without needing my help.

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It can be made to be porn depending on usage of the materials.

 

Considering I've already stated that he is using these images to self-abuse himself, I'd say your statement right there justifies calling it porn.  The church and our prophets certainly have, repeatedly.

 

Christ calls looking at a woman with lust adultery.  And the church states that adultery is a valid reason for divorce.  Therefore, if he insists on continuing his actions, I would be well within my right to divorce him.  Am I going to run right out and file for divorce tomorrow?  No.  Boy, some of you are really overreacting on that.

 

To those of you who understand my feelings in this, thank you very much for your support. 

 

JoJoBag, I really appreciate your perspective from the other end of things and your sensitivity.

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Christ calls looking at a woman with lust adultery.

 

No, he does not.

 

I am sorry for your situation, MM. You have my best hopes. But I must offer the correction that nowhere does Christ say that looking at a woman with lust is adultery. This is a common idea, but is simply false.

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This is a large, smelly pile of organic waste products.

 

She has a right to expect him to act like a decent and honorable husband, father, and priesthood holder.  If he will not change, she has the right to leave his sorry butt because he is incapable of achieving the Celestial Kingdom.  Let me paraphrase Brigham Young when he told women, "Follow your husbands, but not to hell."

Pot meet kettle; please, please I'm begging you to show me in either scriptures or General Conference talks the bolded above. CFR.

 

Do you really understand what you are advocating? I think not.

 

And the follow your husbands to hell? Are you really trying to tell me that his sin is her sin.  That because he is sinning she will not inherit the Celestial Kingdom? Is that really your premise, because that is contrary to everything in the Gospel. Salvation, even Exaltation is an individual matter.

 

I get it, you have such a deep hatred for this sin; I do to, but you are letting your deep hatred of this sin override everything else to clouding your judgement. 

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So out of curiosity, what happens if one spouse refuses flat-out to stop looking at whatever level of porn or similar, giving a simple "I understand where you are coming from and I love you, but I choose this and it's not stopping in the forseen future." Does a good wife just learn to live with it and be miserable? It seems the "don't divorce" idea puts all power with one spouse who can then do whatever he or she wants short of abuse and adultery and the partner just has to deal with it.

Short answer, is yes.

 

An LDS wife has a bottle of wine every night, maybe even gets drunk every now and then. Does a pretty good job of taking care of the kids, but due to her wine "addiction" isn't temple worthy and has bottles of wine in the house that the kids see.

 

Should the husband divorce her because she is an alcoholic or smokes, because she isn't temple worthy? Unless she is being derelict in her duties as a wife and mother no one here would advocate that the husband divorce her and even if she was an alcoholic  most would applaud the husband for sticking with the wife (oh look how loyal he is in sticking with her through her addiction!)

 

The scriptures and the General Authorities are pretty clear on what justifies divorce-Adultery and Abuse; and even in those cases while it may be justified it is not requisite.

 

Most of the English world has this as their vows: "I, [name], take you [name], to be my [husband/wife], to have and to hold from this day forward; for better or for worse; for richer, for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish from this day forward until death do us part."

 

Sometimes it's the better and sometimes it's the worse.  Our current culture is so messed up; commitment today means, well as long as I'm happy and I feel good about it then I'll do it. It's all about the short-term, what makes me feel good today.

 

The actual statistics on divorce and the effects of divorce are staggering. If you have been divorced once the chances that you will divorce again go up (like 60% for 2nd and 70% for third marriages).  Children are 14% more likely to divorce is they come from a divorced home. Children from divorced parents will most likely marry other children from divorced parents which will increase their chances of divorce.

 

Interestingly enough, women are way more likely to file for divorce than men (something like 70/30); children who come from divorced homes are generally poorer as are the women. Children from divorced homes are more insecure, lonely, unhappy, anxious and insecure. Children from divorced parents are more likely to have relationship problems. They tend to be more aggressive, more likely to commit suicide. 70% of inmates come from broken homes.

 

The best marriage advice I will ever give my kids is do not under any circumstances marry someone who comes from a broken home. It might sound cruel and harsh-but it will save them a ton of headache in long run.

 

So my answer is unequivocally yes. Statistics show that people who considered divorce and didn't were happier 5 years later than those that did divorce.

 

The main driver for divorce-it isn't porn, or finances, or anything like that. It is rooted in pride and selfishness. The "my spouse does x (whatever x might be) and he won't change so I'll throw a big fit about it". 

 

Throwing divorce around in a marriage is like hurtling nuclear bombs at each other. It isn't fighting fair in a marriage.

 

The solution to it is Christlike love and forgiveness.

Edited by yjacket
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MM's husband is doing things that would keep him from getting a temple recommend.  

That is a big maybe; but that decision is between him, his Bishop and the Lord.

 

In fact Bishops are counseled not to deviate from the questions and to not ask questions that are not found in the interview.

 

One question is "do you live the law of chastity?" If the guy says yes the Bishop could probably ask, "what is your understanding of the Law of Chastity?" But I don't think I've ever had a Bishop ask, "do you look at pornography or self-abuse?" as they really aren't supposed to.

 

If the guy brings it up and says, well Bishop I do xyz, then the Bishop may revoke the recommend, but he may not; he may actually encourage the guy to attend the temple more regularly. It just depends on what the Bishop hears and what the Spirit tells him would be the right course of action. A Bishop might restrict the person from taking the sacrament for a while and in extreme cases (and I've got to imagine it is pretty bad-like going into cybersex or something) one might get disfellowshipped.

 

And more to the point that looking at porn is not adultery (it is lust and it is 100% wrong) but it is not adultery.  I've never heard of a Disciplinary Counsel being called because some guy is into porn. You will get a disciplinary counsel called for actually committing adultery.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

MM and Texygirl, this is a time to be very prayerful. You will need the comfort and strength that can only come from Christ through the Holy Ghost. You will need the patience of Job and the wisdom of Solomon.

I don't know if divorce would be appropriate or not, I don't think anyone can tell you that except Heavenly Father. However, I will say be very, very prayerful about that decision -- I've seen cases where divorce makes a woman's life so much harder....being a single mom is hard enough, then you still have to co-parent with your ex-husband. Divorce is really hard on children and they may act out in ways that will be devastating. I've seen these things happen.

Now let me tell you a story with a happy ending. A friend of mine separated from her husband because she found out he had been using porn since before they were married (their kids are grown and have their own families). So she left.

After about two years (separation not divorce) she had some serious health issues and ended up in the ICU. When she got out, she couldn't drive..and she ended up living with her husband again.

They lived like roommates. They had separate bedrooms and they talked to each other about their love interests. I thought that was the weirdest thing ever, at the time.

Eventually they became the best of friends and they fell in love again. It is amazing to hear her talk about him now, they are so happy.

My point is some of the best marriages go through hell to get there. Think back to your wedding...you obviously loved your husband very much. You married him "for better or for worse" -- we don't literally say those words in the temple, but all that and more is implied.

Something else to consider...if you chose to divorce over this, have you considered you may then be single forever? Because my Bishop's wife said about 60% of the men in our ward struggle with pornography. Finding a man who doesn't have this problem will be hard...finding one that doesn't have this problem and wants to have a bended family, and that you are attracted to. . . . The odds don't look good. Then what happens to your eternal salvation (I'm not certain how the Lord would judge that, but I wouldn't want to be in that situation.)

Perhaps helping your husband through this plague is your version of crossing the plains, or your version of becoming a Savior on Mount Zion.

I have no illusions that it will be easy, but you can be certain the Lord will more than compensate you for anything you suffer.

Be prayerful, oh so prayerful.

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So very well said LP. Thank you. . . .see there are difference between men and women. Men are so blunt, matter of fact and a woman can say something with a very similar effect but it is just so much better! 

That has nothing to do with men vs. women.  It is entirely one individual to the next.  I know plenty of men who could have gotten the same ideas across as other men in this thread, and done so with far more courtesy.  And I know women who can be just as rude blunt.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

So very well said LP. Thank you. . . .see there are difference between men and women. Men are so blunt, matter of fact and a woman can say something with a very similar effect but it is just so much better!

Thanks. :) You know, when I read your post I thought, "I agree, but I would have said it differently."

Zil, I know what you mean, but for the most part I agree with Yjacket. Though as you said there are exceptions.

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Zil, I know what you mean, but for the most part I agree with Yjacket. Though as you said there are exceptions.

I just don't believe the difference is based on chromosomes.  (And I do believe claiming it is gender-based is a thinly veiled excuse for something that is nothing more or less than a choice made.)

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That has nothing to do with men vs. women.  It is entirely one individual to the next.  I know plenty of men who could have gotten the same ideas across as other men in this thread, and done so with far more courtesy.  And I know women who can be just as rude blunt.

Zil I think that Yjacket was making a generalization

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I just don't believe the difference is based on chromosomes.  (And I do believe claiming it is gender-based is a thinly veiled excuse for something that is nothing more or less than a choice made.)

Well, considering that the male brain and female brain are scientifically different and that the male brain is more oriented towards logic and rationality and the female brain is more oriented towards emotion. Yes, the way men and women say things is different (unless you don't believe science).

 

Some people take logic as being rude. I completely understand that MM's reaction is very emotionally based, she is ticked and rightfully so; but that emotional reaction to potentially divorce her husband over this issue is not a rational nor logical reaction. And I say that simply based on what the outcomes of what that decision would be (i.e. all the statistics I made mention of).

 

If MM's ultimate goal in life is to have happiness and joy for herself and her posterity (and I'm sure that it is); then her decision to make this an issue over with which to divorce is simply not logical as statistically speaking she will end up having a much happier, healthier life for her and her posterity if she stays married to him despite this issue rather than making it a divorcable issue.

 

And while you claim that many other people could have said the same things I did but in a better way-no one else did; I being the main driver and maybe one or two other people said it.

 

What is interesting that being married over the long term helps both men and woman to blend their unique characteristics; marriages that last a long time women will become more logical and men will become more emotional. It is why after 40 something years of marriage you can look at a couple and to know one is to almost to know the other.

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No, he does not.

 

I am sorry for your situation, MM. You have my best hopes. But I must offer the correction that nowhere does Christ say that looking at a woman with lust is adultery. This is a common idea, but is simply false.

 

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."  Matthew 5:28.  Directly from the mouth of Jesus.

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Yjacket, to read your posts you apparently think that I should just suck it up and try to ignore what he is doing and just live with it.  If he's not going to respect me and care about my feelings, then too bad I just need to shut up and deal with it and go about my married life as if nothing was wrong.  Because that is exactly what I am getting from your posts.

 

And good grief people, do you seriously think I would divorce him or make ANY major decision about my marriage without some serious, heavy-duty prayer?  Honestly, some of you have latched on to that word above all else and have already come to the assumption that I have decided to divorce him, which makes your advice extremely narrow in its scope and not helpful in the slightest. 

 

Yes, if he is unrepentant and refuses to change what he is doing and insists that I need to accept it, I will most likely divorce him.  Period, end of discussion.  I will NOT do so without a lot of prayer and counseling, but I cannot live with someone who would so disrespect me and care so little about the pain he is causing me.  I already went through this in my first marriage, with a husband who not only refused to stop using porn, but eventually tried to talk me into joining in, tried to talk me into getting breast implants and wanted me to agree to bring other women into the picture.  When I refused he just went elsewhere for his pleasure.  I will NOT go through that again, nor will I allow it to get even anywhere close to that.

 

If DH makes an honest effort to shun that stuff, even if he still slips up from time to time, I will stand by him and support him.  I've already done it once before and I thought we had moved past that.  I have already said that in a previous post, but some of you are like a dog with a bone and just can't see past the 'd' word.

Edited by MormonMama
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yjacket,

 

Was Christ illogical, or was he rude?  (This is my primary point.  It's not about gender, as if it were unnatural for one and natural for the other, it's about time and effort.)

 

IMO, your most-recent post made your point without being either, thus further proving it can be done by any gender.

 

That said, some of what I've seen in this thread was not (just) blunt, not misunderstood (it was painfully clear), and not even logical (rude is never logical, and there was clear emotion behind the tone of the posts I'm thinking of), but rude.  Politeness, courtesy, and/or civility would have motivated the poster to take the extra time and make the extra effort to word their post politely, courteously, and/or civilly, without lacking in any logic, and without having to alter their opinion.

 

Meanwhile, I recommend you look into the latest science on the brain.

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"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."  Matthew 5:28.  Directly from the mouth of Jesus.

 

Bingo. Nowhere does Jesus say or imply or suggest that lusting after a woman is equal to adultery. Jesus' statement above is an obvious declaration of truth, saying that lust is a first step. It is not the same sin; to claim it says any such thing is to badly misread it, or more specifically, to read into it something you might want to believe but that Jesus did not in fact say.

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MM's husband is doing things that would keep him from getting a temple recommend.  That requires a talk with the bishop to clear up before he can get one.  What I cannot understand are those who seem (I could be wrong) to be justifying or mitigating the seriousness of looking at porn.  Yes, I am saying that racy photos, including bikini shots, lingerie and other such filth are pornography.  Nudity is not required.  I don't care how much someone wants to nitpick, dwell on semantics or use deceptive modern worldly definitions, it is nothing more than another form of porn; no if's, and's, or but's.

 

I would agree that what I learned after my post would need the Bishop's attention. That said, I do not believe that looking at "racy" pics, bikinis pics, etc require Priesthood authority to resolve. Masturbation + racy pics....without a doubt.

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yjacket,

 

Was Christ illogical, or was he rude?  (This is my primary point.  It's not about gender, as if it were unnatural for one and natural for the other, it's about time and effort.)

I'm not quite following. Christ was pretty blunt at times, at other times use metaphors.

 

This whole issue is about gender; porn is one of those things that is literally processed differently for men and woman. It is bad, no doubt. However, when a woman sees her husband using porn it is seen as "I'm not good enough not pretty enough, it's my fault etc." as in the porn has to deal with personally with her. Her self-image is wrapped up in it and she sees herself as less of a person, degraded, etc. when her husband uses porn.

 

When in reality, the porn has very little if anything to do with her as a person. As far as the actual science of it goes, it is still pretty muddled and honestly society nor actual science as a whole really has figured it all out yet what the effects are. The only thing we do know for sure is that the prophets and Christ have told us pornography/lust is bad. The internet and mass porn production has really only been around for max 20 years and really 15 years since internet became available to just about everyone.

 

So why would a man look at porn? Quite frankly and bluntly because for a very short period of time it makes them feel better. Why do people watch movies? Because it is exciting and in general makes them feel good.

 

Some men get addicted to it; some men do not. Just because a man uses porn does not necessarily mean he is addicted to it. Now it is certainly very addictive and the chances are high that one will get addicted but not necessarily.

 

And it's actually a good thing that the female form makes men feel better, otherwise the human race might have gone extinct a long time ago.

 

So two questions, why do people get addicted to things and if a man is not addicted to porn, why would he look at it? Both of them have the same root. If a man is addicted to it, just like all addictions he will need some outside help to overcome it. But just like all addictions, while he will need outside help-only he can make the decisions to change or start to change.

 

The reasons why he would look at it is simple-there is something broken inside of him; whether it is depression, sadness, loneliness, lack of emotional connection, etc. There is something lacking and to cover it up he uses porn. It's better than a drug as you don't have to deal with needles, cops, etc. It uses the most powerful feelings and emotions to make a man feel good (even if it is for just a short period of time).

 

So how do you "fix" it? Well if he's an addict, there are groups. But otherwise, he has to figure out how to fix himself.

So what can a spouse do? Stomp her foot and say respect me and if you don't stop I'll kick you out of the house? Even if it works for this particular problem, it will still most likely exacerbate the underlying issues.

 

So what can a spouse really do? While the problem is something only he can fix, what a spouse can do is provide a home base where the underlying drivers for this behavior can be fixed and mitigated. So how does a spouse provide a home base where depression, loneliness, lack of emotional connection, etc. can be fixed?

 

By being the best spouse possible.

 

It is my firm believe that no man in a solid happy marriage would find much pleasure in porn.  Why? because he doesn't need it. Why would he go look at pictures when he can find so much more enjoyment with his spouse, by talking through the things of life, enjoying a good relationship, etc.

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Yjacket, to read your posts you apparently think that I should just suck it up and try to ignore what he is doing and just live with it.  

Have I anywhere implied, suggested or stated that I think his actions are okay? Have I said anywhere that you should not be upset?

 

But ultimately, you can choose to love him and stick with him in spite of his actions and develop a more Christlike love towards him regardless of what he does, recognizing that while you feel hurt he isn't doing these things specifically to hurt you. Some marriages are golden marriages where very little goes wrong, my gut feeling is those types of marriages are very few and far between. Marriage teaches you more about true Christlike love and forgiveness by practical day-to-day living than spending a lifetime studying it. I don't say ignore, I say learn how to love him even more and forgive him even more.

 

The only thing I have hit on, and hit hard on is that it is not justified for divorce. I have called for CFR that it is and no one can prove me wrong. You can use a scripture to twist Christ's words into giving you what you want, but no modern day prophet will back you on your interpretation.

 

You have already made the determination at this point that if he doesn't change in a year you will divorce him.  You have mentioned divorce multiple times. Any marriage counselor and any marriage book will tell you that doing that to him is opening a door for disaster in your marriage.

 

You want to make this issue, the issue to stand your ground on and to determine whether or not your marriage survives. Just from what you have said, your marriage has much bigger issues than whether or not your husband looks at racy images.  If you choose to divorce over this, it won't be the root cause it will be one of the symptoms. But in the end, you can then claim it as the cause and absolve yourself of any wrongdoing in your marriage.

 

There is a reason why children from divorced parents have a higher likelihood of divorce, why second and third marriages have higher divorce rates than first marriages.

 

Good luck to you, I think I'm tuckered out on this topic. 

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Dear MM,

 

Please get your husband help asap. I have had heaps of experience in this matter and he needs to be made painfully aware of what he is doing not only to himself but to your whole family. This is much worse than a bottle of wine a night. Sexual sin is just under the shedding of innocent blood to God. And comes at a hefty price.

 

When anyone accesses porn they invite, I mean they give an invitation for evil spirits to invade your home. These spirits will try to destroy your husband, you and your children. Once his addiction becomes compulsive he has already become possessed with an unclean spirit and needs it cast out. Your house will have to be blessed as well as you and your children.

 

These men have no idea what they are conjuring up when they delve into porn :( Most of the time it goes the porn goes from swim suites to nakedness to the sex act and then the most disgusting thoughts and desires imaginable. You see Satan doesn't want it to stop at swim suites he wants to DESTROY the souls of men.  

 

Please don't listen to the men on this site that trivualize porn they are either addicted themselves or have no idea how bad this can get and the evil and unclean spirit involvement. They are deceived by the wisdom of this world .Unclean spirits are spirits that have lived on the earth and died in their sins / addictions. They become subject to Satan and a lot of the time hang around their own family lines. They have had bodies and are able to more subtley possess their victims and when men delve into pornography they open themselves up to unclean and evil spirit possession. As a result their addiction becomes compulsive and the whole family can and will come under attack.

 

If any of you like me to, I can back up unclean / evil spirit possession by quoting church leaders. According to church leader the single most common affliction to man is evil spirit possession. These people that are delving into pornography might as well be delving into black magic because they get possessed and cause their loved ones and their homes to be haunted and afflicted.

 

Good Luck and God Bless

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Bingo. Nowhere does Jesus say or imply or suggest that lusting after a woman is equal to adultery. Jesus' statement above is an obvious declaration of truth, saying that lust is a first step. It is not the same sin; to claim it says any such thing is to badly misread it, or more specifically, to read into it something you might want to believe but that Jesus did not in fact say.

 

Okay, you and I get something VERY different from that scripture.  Jesus DOES equate it with adultery.  He says that person has committed adultery already.  The fact that it's "in his heart" makes no difference.  I have been taught this in Sunday School as well, so clearly I am not the only person in the church who believes this.

 

Proverbs 23:7 tells us that as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.  Numerous church leaders have stated that the thought precedes the action, which is why we are to keep our thoughts morally clean.  True to the Faith states:  "When you are married, you must be completely faithful to your husband or wife."  Another statement from that source:  "Merely refraining from sexual intercourse outside of marriage is not sufficient in the Lord’s standard of personal purity. The Lord requires a high moral standard of His disciples, including complete fidelity to one’s spouse in thought and conduct."

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