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I really need help with this. I really would love some advice. I just got baptized not even a day ago... My boyfriend and I have talked about the LoC and our limits and that we cannot do things that break the LoC. He came over after my baptism and he kept trying to make out with me and kept trying to touch my butt and I sternly told him no and tried pushing him away. But he kept trying to. But I stopped him. Then we were just cuddling and he tried laying on top of me and tried kissing me once again and now after he left I feel guilty... And now I don't know what to do...

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In all honesty, get a different boyfriend. This one cares nothing for you personally, your goals, or what you are trying to achieve. If things are as you say, he is not worth your time. Talk to him once more, just long enough to say "Goodbye, good luck, and never contact me again", then begin your new life as a disciple of Christ who does not have a creepy boyfriend.

 

Sorry if this sounds unChristlike. I don't think it is. Sometimes we have to do the hard thing, like tell a "boyfriend" that he is no longer any such thing.

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You may not be thinking this way but let me walk you through this.

 

You gave him specific rules of conduct: where he can and can't touch you.

 

He persisted in doing so anyway.  He touched you in an unwanted and uninvited way.

 

This is called sexual harassment or sexual assault.  That may sound like harsh language.  But it may be the only way to get you AND him to understand the gravity of what he just did.  And that language is legally accurate.  You need to know what it is he just did to you.  He needs to know what it is he just did to you.

 

Do you want to stay with a person who will violate you even when you've told him no?

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Dump the guy. As Vort mentioned it may sound unChristlike, but it's not. Why would you put up with that? Does he understand the commitment you just made? Is he a member? Either way he obviously doesn't understand what it is you just did, not does he understand the commitment and lifestyle you have chosen. 

 

You are trying to find someone that will respect boundaries and your morals. You said that you told him over and over no, and sternly, but he kept trying. One thing on that persons mind, and it isn't your salvation. 

 

Take heed to what Carborendum said also. 

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[thread_derailment]

 

EarlJibbs,

 

I just realized your avatar is an old portrait with an oval background, as used to be common in portrait photography 100 and more years ago.

 

photo-thumb-42393.jpg?_r=1422311570

 

Until now, I have just sort of thought it was a cowboy guy wearing a big sombrero.

 

That is all.

 

[/thread_derailment]

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[thread_derailment]

 

EarlJibbs,

 

I just realized your avatar is an old portrait with an oval background, as used to be common in portrait photography 100 and more years ago.

 

photo-thumb-42393.jpg?_r=1422311570

 

Until now, I have just sort of thought it was a cowboy guy wearing a big sombrero.

 

That is all.

 

[/thread_derailment]

Ha!!!  I think we need to start a new thread and you can go through everyone's avitar and tell us what you thought they were. Sort of like the cat that you thought was a pig. 

 

If anyone would like to know, that actually is me, but not 100 years ago. Just a few years. 

 

-Now back to your regular program - 

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I agree with the others.  BF may not be a terrible, evil guy--he may have just lost his head for a while--but even so, that's not something you need in your life right now.  You deserve better.  :)

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Dump him! He is not respecting your boundaries. I don't want you to become a victim of date rape. . .

You deserve better!

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First, I think its great that you realise there is a problem. Second, I think its great that you are seeking help. Third, uncomfortable as it feels, I think its great that you are feeling guilty. Guilt is often the first step in a process that leads to positive change. Normally when a person is seeking guidance about whether or not they have violated the LoC, and if so, what they should do about it, the best person to talk with is the bishop. However, in your case, being so new, you might feel more comfortable in first talking to the missionaries who taught you the gospel. I suspect that they might refer you to your bishop but at least that advice will be coming from a source that you know and trust, and that you know loves and cares for you. 

 

ps

 

I love your nickname! Lds followed by the date of your baptism. Very nice :) 

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My boyfriend and I have talked about the LoC and our limits and that we cannot do things that break the LoC.

Is he LDS? I don't see that anyone has asked.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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Possibly because it's not relevant to the answer, though I am slightly curious to know.

If he is LDS, then a(nother) bishop needs to be involved. If not, then our new sister may be alone.

Either way, I'm with LiterateParakeet: He's not worthy of her.

Lehi

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I really need help with this. I really would love some advice. I just got baptized not even a day ago... My boyfriend and I have talked about the LoC and our limits and that we cannot do things that break the LoC. He came over after my baptism and he kept trying to make out with me and kept trying to touch my butt and I sternly told him no and tried pushing him away. But he kept trying to. But I stopped him. Then we were just cuddling and he tried laying on top of me and tried kissing me once again and now after he left I feel guilty... And now I don't know what to do...

 

Sister, first, congratulations on your baptism - what a wonderful step.

 

Regarding your feelings of guilt, this is in part to help you do whatever is necessary to avoid this situation again.  Talking with a bishop can help, or the missionaries if you're more comfortable with them.  Certainly prayer and asking for guidance from Heavenly Father will help.

 

Finally, as hard as it may be to hear, please trust those of us who have been there before you, or know personally others who have; we only want to save you from the more serious pain and regrets that are almost guaranteed to come later.

 

He's not worthy of you.  And yes, you've been sexually assaulted, and it really is best to understand that (and frankly for him to understand that) now.  Guys like this push and push, and when you have strong feelings for them, it's hard to say "no", and the more he pushes, the harder it is.  It can leave you feeling like you didn't resist hard enough**, but the truth is, he doesn't really care, he thinks "no" means, "not until you've broken my will" or "I'm just playing hard to get".  And because he believes that, he's never going to respect your boundaries.  If he respected you as a person (instead of a way to satisfy sexual urges), he never would have crossed the boundary in the first place.

 

**(one "no" is resisting hard enough, one discussion of your boundaries is resisting hard enough, though if that doesn't work, physical violence is just fine as far as I'm concerned - let him call the cops and then you can explain how you said "no" and he kept coming - that's called attempted rape)

 

If you're bound and determined to give him another chance, I personally, would only give it to him if he first agreed to a conversation with you and your bishop (if the bishop is willing), perhaps also to a discussion from the missionaries or a ward member on the law of chastity, and some hard rules about not being alone together in private for some extended length of time while all this goes on.

 

Unfortunately, from everything I know, I don't believe he'll ever change his thinking on this - church membership, faith, etc. in some ways have nothing to do with this - either he respects you as an individual or he doesn't.  It seems to be an on/off switch with some guys.

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He's not worthy of you.  And yes, you've been sexually assaulted, and it really is best to understand that (and frankly for him to understand that) now.

 

I was pretty much with you until you wrote this. To classify trying to pat your girlfriend on the butt as "sexual assault" is absurd. It is not at all helpful. It trivializes those cases of honest-to-goodness sexual assault and puts a false and hideous accusation on someone who does not deserve it. I think the guy sounds like a sack of scum, but nothing she describes can reasonably be said to rise to the level of "sexual assault".

 

Why would you want to try to falsely convince this young woman that she had been sexually assaulted? What good could possibly come of that? Do you want her to go to the bishop or the police and make accusations of sexual assault? How does this benefit either of them, or anyone else, for that matter?

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**(one "no" is resisting hard enough, one discussion of your boundaries is resisting hard enough, though if that doesn't work, physical violence is just fine as far as I'm concerned - let him call the cops and then you can explain how you said "no" and he kept coming - that's called attempted rape)

 

Seriously? Now you want her to claim that her boyfriend tried to RAPE her?

 

How are such lies good or Godly? How do they lead this sister (or her boyfriend) to Christ? The guy's a scumbag and she should dump him. But judging by what she has written, he is NOT a rapist, whatever the bullcrap feminist fantasies would have us believe.

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Seriously? Now you want her to claim that her boyfriend tried to RAPE her?

 

How are such lies good or Godly? How do they lead this sister (or her boyfriend) to Christ? The guy's a scumbag and she should dump him. But judging by what she has written, he is NOT a rapist, whatever the bullcrap feminist fantasies would have us believe.

 

I was describing a hypothetical situation.  I'm sorry that wasn't clear.  I'll try to clarify, though you probably won't like it any better: if in the future, a situation arose where saying "no" wasn't enough, and physical force was required to stop hypothetical him from (whatever's next - fondling her breasts, putting his hands under her clothes or between her legs, trying to remove her clothes, whatever), and _he_ was upset enough at her for using physical force to stop him (if that were even possible) that _he_ called the cops, once she explained what caused her to use violence, I'm pretty confident she's in the right and he's guilty of _something_ and _attempted_something_more - call it forced fondling or molestation, or whatever you want, he was using force (I call that assault), and if "no" isn't enough to stop him, my assumption is, based on his behavior, that he was going to have sex whether the woman wanted to or not - that, to me, is attempted rape.

 

Again, I'm sorry that the hypothetical part of that was not clear.  I included it only because some women blame themselves for being assaulted by men when they were not at fault in any way (yes, sometimes they share the blame, or weren't assaulted at all), but often, women will blame themselves when the reality is that a man used force to get something she was trying to deny him.

 

Will reply to your other post shortly.

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I was pretty much with you until you wrote this. To classify trying to pat your girlfriend on the butt as "sexual assault" is absurd. It is not at all helpful. It trivializes those cases of honest-to-goodness sexual assault and puts a false and hideous accusation on someone who does not deserve it. I think the guy sounds like a sack of scum, but nothing she describes can reasonably be said to rise to the level of "sexual assault".

 

He did a lot more than patting her butt (please re-read).  She "tried pushing him away" - that she wrote "tried" instead of "I pushed him away" means she failed - he was resisting - he was using his superior strength to defeat her attempts.  And then... (go read).

 

If you're equating "sexual assault" with "rape" then, I agree, this is nowhere near that.  I'm not equating the two.  From her description, what he did was clearly sexual.  From her description, he used force, which I call assault.  (1+1 = 2; was my thinking)  Maybe your perception is that he didn't use force?

 

That he *finally* stopped doesn't change that he did things to her against her stated will and which she was actively trying to get him to stop doing.

 

The only thing I'm trying to encourage the OP to do, is understand that the highest probability is that what he has already done is very serious, that he will push farther and farther past her boundaries the longer they're together and the more time they spend alone, and that because of this, she should drop him.  And I want her to understand that this advice is based on experiences of others who have been where she is right now.

 

I'm sorry I hit a nerve.  I know the false accusation issue is strongly felt among many on this forum and I wasn't trying to suggest she, or anyone (even hypothetically) do that.

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I was pretty much with you until you wrote this. To classify trying to pat your girlfriend on the butt as "sexual assault" is absurd. It is not at all helpful. It trivializes those cases of honest-to-goodness sexual assault and puts a false and hideous accusation on someone who does not deserve it. I think the guy sounds like a sack of scum, but nothing she describes can reasonably be said to rise to the level of "sexual assault".

 

Why would you want to try to falsely convince this young woman that she had been sexually assaulted? What good could possibly come of that? Do you want her to go to the bishop or the police and make accusations of sexual assault? How does this benefit either of them, or anyone else, for that matter?

 

I think part of what's confusing the issue is that most of us, when we hear "sexual assault", immediately interpret that as "rape"--entailing, to put it delicately (or not), conventional and clearly non-consensual sexual intercourse.

 

But legally, "sexual assault" can encompass a variety of sexual offenses including, but not limited to, rape.  For example, Utah recognizes rape (nonconsensual sexual intercourse) as a first degree felony (UCA 76-5-402).  But, if I touch a person's "private parts" without consent, I may well have committed a second degree felony called "Forcible Sexual Abuse" (UCA 76-5-404). 

 

I wasn't there, so I personally wouldn't go so far as to tell the OP that she was definitely the victim of a sexual assault.  But, to use that kind of terminology in this scenario is not necessarily a case of radical feminism run amok.

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Thank, you, JAG - "abuse" is a much better word.  "Harassment" wasn't strong enough (or serious enough in the modern world with all its HR departments run amok), so I went with "assault" - I'll try to remember this and choose my wording better next time.

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If you feel comfortable answering, what has been your past physical limits with this boy? While no certainly means no, if you're making a 180 turn on your relationship norms there might be a thought of confusion and testing new limits. Again, not okay after you say no, but it's very hard to go backwards in regards to physical affection.

If you don't break up, at least give the relationship a cooling off period.

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He did a lot more than patting her butt (please re-read).  She "tried pushing him away" - that she wrote "tried" instead of "I pushed him away" means she failed - he was resisting - he was using his superior strength to defeat her attempts.  And then... (go read).

 

I don't know... I read "tried pushing him away" and what came to my mind was she didn't have enough willpower to do it... meaning, she was more trying to fight herself than the dude.

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So I just read the OP. Don't know if anyone else has commented on this as I haven't read through it all yet...but...

 

There's a problem right from the start when the thinking is "what's the limits of what we can do". Talk about letter of the law vs. spirit of the law, right? Let's embrace the spirit of the law of chastity here and look at things, rather from what we can't do and what we can get away with, but from how much respect we have for God, each other, our bodies, the sanctity of it all, etc.

 

An unmarried couple should not even come close to the limits of what they can get away with while still sticking to the letter of the law of chastity. That's messed up right from the get go.

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I don't know... I read "tried pushing him away" and what came to my mind was she didn't have enough willpower to do it... meaning, she was more trying to fight herself than the dude.

 

Good point.  I'll remember this.  I've already decided to work up a series of questions for the next time a post like this comes up (they seem to come up too often).  That way, instead of my limited perspective missing points like this, the questions can be used by the OP either to help us understand more, or simply to make a determination about the relationship.

 

Thanks!

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OP-I have to say it. This guy is bad news. Please, please stay away from him. 

The more I think about it, the more I want you to run. Run very fast. You are a sister to all of us, and we don't want anything to happen to you. 

This person (no, I am not going to call him a man. He had his man card revoked with how he treats you) has serious issues. 

Edited by MormonGator

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