It doesn't do to have heroes


Jamie123
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It doesn't do to idolize people too much. Lord Nelson won many a battle and was loved by his men, but he neglected his wife while having a long-lasting affair with the wife of his best friend. Martin Luther King may have been inspired by God, but he was also a serial philanderer and plagiarist. And the real George Armstrong Custer was absolutely nothing like Errol Flynn.

 

I'm sure it's the same in the US, but here in the UK there have been a stream of famous people many of us loved from childhood, who it now seems were sex predators.

 

To start with there was Gary Glitter. He was always a bit of a "character". I saw him in concert when I was at college - not of course during his main period of fame, but during a short-lived comeback in the 1980s when he was playing to students (like me) who remembered him from when they were 9 or 10.

 

That was bad enough, but it really took off with Jimmy Savile. I must confess I never exactly "liked" Savile: he was entertaining and funny to watch on TV, but I don't think I'd have felt comfortable meeting the guy. It's no big surprise that there was something funny going on behind the scenes.

 

But then came Rolf Harris. Good old Rolf. We all loved him. There were his Christmas and Easter shows, Rolf Harris' Cartoon Time and Animal Hospital. Great stuff. I agree with Russell Brand that the news of what he really was makes you need to re-evaluate your childhood.

 

But now: now there is Peter Ball. Less famous than the three I've mentioned so far he's not been in the news much, which is why I've only just become aware of this. Ball was an Anglican bishop/monk who worked a lot with young people during the 70s and 80s. I say "was" because he's not only been "defrocked" but convicted and imprisoned for sexually assaulting many teenage novices in his monastery. It's not even as if this might be a miscarriage of justice: he has fully admitted to it all - much to the dismay of his many fans and supporters.

 

To be quite honest I don't know an awful lot about Ball, but what mostly stand out in my memory are Adrian Plass' descriptions of him. Since Plass is one of my all-time favourite writers, and Ball was a close friend/mentor of Plass, I have (without much justification) adopted Ball as a kind of "hero by proxy". Stupid I know, but there you have it...

 

"...there is absolutely no substitute for our own individual journey with God, for spending time alone with him, and growing directly in our own consciousness of his compassion and wisdom. Leaders, systems and even theologies rise and fall, and we need that deep, personal, inner walk with Jesus that ultimately nothing can take away." Adrian Plass

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Yep - I don't do heroes either.  There are many people who possess and display qualities I greatly admire.  But it's the qualities I admire, not the people.  That way, should they publicly fall from grace (as we all do from time to time, publicly or not), I can continue to admire the qualities, and have no reason to defend or give a pass to the behaviors getting them in trouble.

 

Tired of finding out Stake President X is in prison for flying to another state to meet the 14 yr old girl he met online, with a box of lingerie in his bag.  Tired of hearing about George P. Lee, member of first quorum of the seventy, convicted of messing around with his daughter's friend.  Don't wanna feel like my foundation is ripped out from under me, when that admirable couple who I've emulated for years, get divorced and leave the church and post nasty things about each other on facebook.    No respecter of persons - I'm taking it and running with it in this way.  Your mileage may vary.  If I sportsted, I'd feel the same way about player X or sports team Y.  

 

(My only exception is Mr. Rodgers.  He'll stay my hero.)

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Hmm... I may not have the same understanding of the word Hero.

 

I have lots of heroes.  I don't believe one has to be perfect to be a hero though.  I hail the heroic act or character and not the entirety of the person.

 

For example:  Chris Kyle to me is a war hero.  He saved a lot of people in his tours which made him a hero.  If it so happens that he kicked his dog and ignored his wife it doesn't change that he is a hero for saving those people in his tours.

 

Superman is a hero.  Not because he is this real person or anything... he is a hero because of the qualities that I assigned to him in my head and that he would have saved a lot of people if he were actually real.

 

Skid Row (yes, the band) is a personal hero.  I went through this dark patch and a Skid Row song stopped me from doing something very stupid.  It doesn't mean that I think Sebastian Bach is this perfect clean-cut dude....

 

Joseph Smith, to me, is a hero.  Doesn't mean that he was perfect either.

Edited by anatess
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Hmm... I may not have the same understanding of the word Hero.

 

I have lots of heroes.  I don't believe one has to be perfect to be a hero though.  I hail the heroic act or character and not the entirety of the person.

 

For example:  Chris Kyle to me is a war hero.  He saved a lot of people in his tours which made him a hero.  If it so happens that he kicked his dog and ignored his wife it doesn't change that he is a hero for saving those people in his tours.

 

 

Ok, fair enough anatess.  You're cool with Kyle, even if he abused his dog and neglected his wife.  But what if (just for the sake of argument here, I have absolutely no wish to smear Kyle's name), what if we discovered he also sexually molested a child?  Or habitually cheated on his taxes across decades?  Or embezzled money from a small business and caused them to go bankrupt?  Is there a point that you would look at one of your heroes, and say to yourself "I don't really think this person is worthy of the title 'hero' any more"?

 

An obvious example would be George P. Lee.  From the destitution of the Navajo reservation, to a member of the first quorum of the seventy.  He was looked up to by Native American LDS for his accomplishments.  His stories (and general conference talk) of overcoming hardships and persevering in the Lord inspired thousands.  Folks considered him a hero for various reasons.  He was held up as a fulfillment of prophecy about the Lamanites becoming great again.  Then he got excommunicated, and we watched in horror as we went on to be convicted of sexually assaulting a young underage girl across years.  Before 1989, lots of folks held him up as a hero.  After 1989, hardly anyone was willing to even mention his name, much less glorify his accomplishments.  

 

I've had sufficient examples in my personal life, where I had been let down by heroes, that I reject the whole notion these days.  

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Ok, fair enough anatess.  You're cool with Kyle, even if he abused his dog and neglected his wife.  But what if (just for the sake of argument here, I have absolutely no wish to smear Kyle's name), what if we discovered he also sexually molested a child?  Or habitually cheated on his taxes across decades?  Or embezzled money from a small business and caused them to go bankrupt?  Is there a point that you would look at one of your heroes, and say to yourself "I don't really think this person is worthy of the title 'hero' any more"?

 

An obvious example would be George P. Lee.  From the destitution of the Navajo reservation, to a member of the first quorum of the seventy.  He was looked up to by Native American LDS for his accomplishments.  His stories (and general conference talk) of overcoming hardships and persevering in the Lord inspired thousands.  Folks considered him a hero for various reasons.  He was held up as a fulfillment of prophecy about the Lamanites becoming great again.  Then he got excommunicated, and we watched in horror as we went on to be convicted of sexually assaulting a young underage girl across years.  Before 1989, lots of folks held him up as a hero.  After 1989, hardly anyone was willing to even mention his name, much less glorify his accomplishments.  

 

I've had sufficient examples in my personal life, where I had been let down by heroes, that I reject the whole notion these days.  

 

There are many examples of this.  We can go back and talk about King David... there's Charlemagne in the A.D. era, etc. etc.

 

The thing is - everyone impacts my life for a specific purpose.  But none of these people are "better than me" in the spiritual sense.  We are all going through mortality and working out our own salvation.  So, I don't see people as heroes for "who they are" but rather for the specific heroic thing that they did.  That includes David who lost his exaltation.  So the only way they stop being the hero is if what they did that was heroic was found to be false.

 

Now, I can, of course, create a hero in my world - my favorite is Gambit of the X-men.  Now, I can make this character completely heroic without character flaws... Gambit could lose his hero title in my eyes if the writer develops him with far-out characteristics... that goes against my hero standards.  But then, I can also just grumble at the writer and ignore everything that comes out about my hero in later material and pretend it doesn't exist so he stays my hero.  But this kind of "hero worship" only exists in fiction.

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(My only exception is Mr. Rodgers.  He'll stay my hero.)

If he's your hero, why did you spell his name wrong?  :eek:   :P

 

I do heroes.  I don't know why a fallen hero gets people down.  It isn't that a person fell that is what makes a person memorable.  It is the fact he achieved something to begin with.

 

I told this story before.  I'll tell it again.  I met an absolutely wonderful family.  They always made me feel so welcome whenever I was in their presence.  They invited me to their home a couple times.  I noticed the little tells that people have that their family was in trouble.  There was certainly not peace in their home as they'd like it.  And I'm certain they had their share of fights.

 

I admired them still.  I wanted my family to be more like them.

 

Nephi is a hero to many.  Why not?  Yet he decried the sins which did so easily beset him.  How would we know which sins he was talking about?  What if they were really serious ones?  But the fact that he was working on them (no matter how bad they were) and striving to become better was what made him great.

 

Is George Washington any less of a man because, as a product of his times, he was also a slave owner?

Was Emma Smith an evil woman because she lost faith after the death of her husband who was her anchor throughout a very difficult life?

 

Carl Malone was asked to comment on Dennis Rodman after he (Rodman) came out about his cross-dressing.  He said,"I remember Dennis from when we used to pal around and hang out and do stuff together.  That was my friend Dennis.  That's the guy I remember.  This new guy who calls himself Dennis, I have no idea who he is."

 

Why can't we see heroes the same way?  We remember the good, the inspiration, the power, the joy, the love...  Do we have to have 100% perfection in all things all the time for someone to be a "proper" hero?  Then you'd better only look at one person in all of history.  That is great in spiritual things.  But what about secular?

 

One of the things we do to help us succeed is to model our lives after others who have succeeded.  But their imperfections are not causes for us to eliminate them as role-models in their field.  They are cues to recognize that if another imperfect human being could achieve such success with their weaknesses and failings, I can certainly, with the Lord's help, achieve even more.

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Guest MormonGator

If we're choosing television/movie personalities and/or rock stars for our heroes it shouldn't be too surprising if they let us down.

 Wow. Stop the presses everyone and check your watches. Armageddon might have occurred. 

Fp and I sort of agree on something. 

Thomas Monson is one of my heroes. So is my old man. Yes, I also have some rock stars and writers. 

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If you look for heroes among the famous, you are almost sure to find nothing but damaged people. But it you look for heroes among the truly pious, ignoring notoriety and looking only for goodness and decency, I daresay you stand a pretty fair chance of finding people whose clay feet consist more of rough edges than of gaping holes.

 

There is a tendency in hero-destruction to conclude cynically that everyone fornicates, everyone lies, everyone cheats on their taxes, etc. This is not true; many people do not do such things. If you are looking for people to emulate in those areas, don't look to actors, musicians, and politicians.

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it helps to be a realist. I admire Joseph Smith Jr (I did even before my conversion, now I admire him much deeper and on a totally different level) but I accept that he had flaws. 

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it helps to be a realist. I admire Joseph Smith Jr (I did even before my conversion, now I admire him much deeper and on a totally different level) but I accept that he had flaws. 

 

This is good, MG. Joseph Smith was a man, and most certainly had flaws, as all men do. But here is a word of brotherly advice: Do not believe the supposed "flaws" that the anti-Mormons assign to Joseph Smith. They are liars, many or most of them, and their axe-grinding throws up a mighty shower of sparks that obscures the truthfulness of whatever topic they address. And make no mistake, Joseph Smith is their very favorite axe to grind, bar none.

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This is good, MG. Joseph Smith was a man, and most certainly had flaws, as all men do. But here is a word of brotherly advice: Do not believe the supposed "flaws" that the anti-Mormons assign to Joseph Smith. They are liars, many or most of them, and their axe-grinding throws up a mighty shower of sparks that obscures the truthfulness of whatever topic they address. And make no mistake, Joseph Smith is their very favorite axe to grind, bar none.

Agree 100%. No, agree 10,000%

The non-LDS world is lying about LDS and Smith, hands down. I want to scream at people "Why are you lying about Latter Day Saints!?! They are the greatest people in the world! Stop, please, Stop!" No, seriously. I really do! 

The dichotomy between what the real world says LDS are and what LDS really are is huge, I mean huge.  LDS are the greatest, most compassionate, understanding and  most tolerant people ever. I'll argue that to anyone. 

Edited by MormonGator
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It doesn't do to idolize people too much.

 

This appears to be the crux of this post, which I would definitely agree with. We should not "idol" any person, place, or thing.  

 

Having héros is a part of life, and there isn't anything wrong in having heroes that a person looks up to but does not idolize, or hero worship.

 

Bishop H. David Burton once proposed, "On the other hand, carefully selected heroes can give us a pattern for our lives and serve as our role models.  They can give us courage to walk the road of life righteously.  I have several  heroes other than Nephi and Nolan Ryan." Later in this address he refers to Spencer W. Kimball as one of his heroes.  He also then says, "My dad's devotion to his children and grandchildren consumed much of his time. He loved the Lord and was about the Lord's errand throughout his days.  He was no only my dad; he was one of my heroes."  I can't think of a greater compliment a son would give their father.

 

Elaine S. Dalton, "Fathers, you are your daughter's hero.  My father was my hero."

 

It does do to have heroes, thus the title doesn't set well; however, it doesn't do to hero worship or to idolize any person, place, or thing.

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I have a few heroes.  Jesus is sort of a hero but to be honest - as much as I wish that I know him - I keep learning that I need to get to know him more.  There is however, one regular person hero that I know very well - and I know all her flaws.  But she is sitll my hero - it is my best friend and wife.   

 

Some of my other heroes are bishops and stake presidents I have had (incouding my current bishop and stake president), my father and mother, my siblings, my wife's brother (not much of anyone else in her family) and even some of the boses and people I have worked for.  On this froum there are a few but Prison Chap is definently up there.

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I don't have heroes ......but I do have Mentors and people I look up too. The mentors I won't mention here because they are still in my life and close to me. People I look up too are many General authorities and many past church leaders no longer with us. One person I always looked up to not a member of the LDS church is Ziz Ziglar. I also look up to and admire Joseph Smith because of what all he did and what he had to endure ...I could go on but I will stop for now.

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Hero is way too much overused today.

I have no heroes.

They had a guy that landed an airplane in New York harbor.  They all fell all over themselves saying he was a hero.  I don't agree.  First, you are not supposed to run the plane into birds.  Second, in any case, you are not supposed to land in the harbor.  You are supposed to land at the airport.  Third, who knows if he was "so cool and calm under pressure"?  He may have been squealing like a banshee all the way down.  His job, in any case, is to land the plane safely.  He was just doing his job.

I think if someone does their job, they are not a hero.  They are doing their job.

A soldiers job is NOT to get killed.  It's to kill the other guy.

I guess the American or world wide public is so lazy and incompetent, that, if anyone actually does their job, then they have to be hailed far and wide as a "hero".  I don't agree.

If an ordinary citizen not on the payroll saves someone's life, that is what they SHOULD do.  I don't think someone is a hero if they do what they SHOULD do. 

If any of us has the opportunity to save someone's life, reasonably, without endangering anyone else, that is what they should do, and not heroic.

Etc.

dc

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Hero is way too much overused today.

I have no heroes.

They had a guy that landed an airplane in New York harbor.  They all fell all over themselves saying he was a hero.  I don't agree.  First, you are not supposed to run the plane into birds.  Second, in any case, you are not supposed to land in the harbor.  You are supposed to land at the airport.  Third, who knows if he was "so cool and calm under pressure"?  He may have been squealing like a banshee all the way down.  His job, in any case, is to land the plane safely.  He was just doing his job.

I agree with this in most civilian cases: doing his job did not make Chesley B. Sullenberger, III, a hero. However, it is not his fault that there were birds in his flight path: too many people, from the idiot who put La Guardia there to the flight controllers, to the radar techs and other government employees who did not warn about the geese to those who did not shoo them away, they gave Sulley a problem he should not have had to face. He was trianed to put the airplane down in the Hudson River because it was the only "safe" place available: he could not get back to La Guardia, nor any other airport.

But, "hero" is, as you said, a title too easily bestowed these days.

 

A soldiers job is NOT to get killed.  It's to kill the other guy.

Sentence A, true. Sentence B, not true. A soldier's job is to wound the other guy. It takes more resources to care for a wounded warrior than a dead one.

 

If an ordinary citizen not on the payroll saves someone's life, that is what they SHOULD do.  I don't think someone is a hero if they do what they SHOULD do.

A hero does things others will not do because they are afraid (as he is) for their lives or safety. If you save my life by giving me artificial respiration, you may not be a hero, but if you drag me out of a burning building to do it, you are. I'll still be grateful for your help, but it was not heroic.

One related thing is the awful practice of lowering the Flag to half-staff for an atrocity like the San Bernardino victims: they did not die in the service of the country (or even of the state) — they were at a Christmas party fer cryin' in a bucket! Yes, their senseless (to me, the murders thought otherwise) deaths were tragic, but they did not deserve the honor of the nation's saluting them.

Soldiers should have the Flag lowered for their deaths, policemen for theirs, but ordinary people who die in ordinary (but large numbers) ways, even lamentable ways, do not deserve this act.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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It doesn't do to idolize people too much. Lord Nelson won many a battle and was loved by his men, but he neglected his wife while having a long-lasting affair with the wife of his best friend. Martin Luther King may have been inspired by God, but he was also a serial philanderer and plagiarist. And the real George Armstrong Custer was absolutely nothing like Errol Flynn.

I'm sure it's the same in the US, but here in the UK there have been a stream of famous people many of us loved from childhood, who it now seems were sex predators.

To start with there was Gary Glitter. He was always a bit of a "character". I saw him in concert when I was at college - not of course during his main period of fame, but during a short-lived comeback in the 1980s when he was playing to students (like me) who remembered him from when they were 9 or 10.

That was bad enough, but it really took off with Jimmy Savile. I must confess I never exactly "liked" Savile: he was entertaining and funny to watch on TV, but I don't think I'd have felt comfortable meeting the guy. It's no big surprise that there was something funny going on behind the scenes.

But then came Rolf Harris. Good old Rolf. We all loved him. There were his Christmas and Easter shows, Rolf Harris' Cartoon Time and Animal Hospital. Great stuff. I agree with Russell Brand that the news of what he really was makes you need to re-evaluate your childhood.

But now: now there is Peter Ball. Less famous than the three I've mentioned so far he's not been in the news much, which is why I've only just become aware of this. Ball was an Anglican bishop/monk who worked a lot with young people during the 70s and 80s. I say "was" because he's not only been "defrocked" but convicted and imprisoned for sexually assaulting many teenage novices in his monastery. It's not even as if this might be a miscarriage of justice: he has fully admitted to it all - much to the dismay of his many fans and supporters.

To be quite honest I don't know an awful lot about Ball, but what mostly stand out in my memory are Adrian Plass' descriptions of him. Since Plass is one of my all-time favourite writers, and Ball was a close friend/mentor of Plass, I have (without much justification) adopted Ball as a kind of "hero by proxy". Stupid I know, but there you have it...

"...there is absolutely no substitute for our own individual journey with God, for spending time alone with him, and growing directly in our own consciousness of his compassion and wisdom. Leaders, systems and even theologies rise and fall, and we need that deep, personal, inner walk with Jesus that ultimately nothing can take away." Adrian Plass

That seems to be second nature, to put those we admire upon a high pedestal, usually beyond their deeds. Often times thevprophets have to remind us again and again that they are mortal men.
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Not only are church leaders often times heroes, but so are our parents.  I have a niece who has gone through a painful divorce and her children are so disappointed in their father.  It has gotten to the point where the children are questioning their testimonies.

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I thought my dad was God. Not literally, of course, but in retrospect I see that I thought he was pretty much perfect, all-knowing, and the best man that any man could hope to be. As a teenager, I began seeing that he was actually human. This did not destroy my psyche or devastate my testimony, but in the wrong situation, it might have been harmful. I have a brother who I think was harmed by this realization.

 

With my own children, I have tried to be an honest and decent man, but I have also tried to let them know (when they were old enough to handle the knowledge) that Daddy is just a guy, with some strengths and other weaknesses. If they share my weaknesses, I want to forewarn them so they can get on top of things. But in any case, when they discover my clay feet, I hope they can respond with love and magnanimity rather than fear and feelings of betrayal. (I believe the oldest have done just that. I can't express how proud I am of my children.)

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I thought my dad was God. Not literally, of course, but in retrospect I see that I thought he was pretty much perfect, all-knowing, and the best man that any man could hope to be. As a teenager, I began seeing that he was actually human. This did not destroy my psyche or devastate my testimony, but in the wrong situation, it might have been harmful. I have a brother who I think was harmed by this realization.

 

With my own children, I have tried to be an honest and decent man, but I have also tried to let them know (when they were old enough to handle the knowledge) that Daddy is just a guy, with some strengths and other weaknesses. If they share my weaknesses, I want to forewarn them so they can get on top of things. But in any case, when they discover my clay feet, I hope they can respond with love and magnanimity rather than fear and feelings of betrayal. (I believe the oldest have done just that. I can't express how proud I am of my children.)

 Great points. 

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