A thought about dealing with Islamic terrorists


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And you're saying that because those people are adherents of al-Sharia that they then want you dead? Do you know what Sharia Law is?

Please don't insult me. Yes, I know what sharia is.

Not everyone who wants sharia wants me dead. But all those who want to kill me in the name of Islam also want to impose sharia.

You do not answer the question, but pose more queries of your own.

How does one tell if the Mouslemin on the street wants to kill him?

There is no way. Whether Christians want to kill me, or you want to kill me is totally beside the point. I'm asking specifically about Moselimins, not atheists, not Hindus, not Amish, not LDS, not Catholics.

Lehi

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So, if you can explain the method by which I can assure myself that the guy down the street or the hijabed-woman at the counter in Safeway isn't going to go jihad on my wife and me because she doesn't wear a scarf, I'd really like to know.

 

 

Wow LeSellers - do you really worry about your Islamic neighbor or the lady in the hijab getting violent?  Honestly, the method I'd suggest to you, is to grow the heck up.  Here are some ways you can implement this method:

- Get to know some Muslims in your town on a personal level.

- Go find out if any mosques or Islamic centers or whatnot are hosting open houses, and go to them and ask questions and get to know people.  Notice that you stood surrounded by them, and yet somehow escaped with your head still attached to your body.

- Do a little research (Wikipedia would be sufficient) about the numbers of Muslims in the US, and the numbers of Muslim criminals in the US.  Come up with a percentage, then do the same research on Mormons.  Then look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're ready to mature in your beliefs a little.

 

Ok, so I admit I live in military-soaked, gun-permit-friendly, open-carry-popular Colorado Springs, CO.  We may be closer to our means of self defense than you.  But honestly, the first thing that goes through my mind when I see a hijab, is "That's cool material - I wonder if my wife would like some to do something art-n-crafty".  

 

In Colorado Springs, we had the (right-wing gun-nut mentally ill christian white) guy shoot up the Planned Parenthood.  We also had another white guy bomb the local NAACP office.  The last mosque open house I went to, the worst thing that happened to me was they gave me a CD of dudes chanting in a language I don't understand.  

 

No really, LeSellers - what I'm hearing from you, I've heard from anti-mormons for decades.  Ignorance, matched with biased history, a lack of charity, unwarranted suspicion, and an unwillingness to consider that maybe reality is different then they demand it be.  I suggest you look deeply inward. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Please don't insult me. Yes, I know what sharia is.

Not everyone who wants sharia wants me dead. But all those who want to kill me in the name of Islam also want to impose sharia.

You do not answer the question, but pose more queries of your own.

How does one tell if the Mouslemin on the street wants to kill him?

There is no way. Whether Christians want to kill me, or you want to kill me is totally beside the point. I'm asking specifically about Moselimins, not atheists, not Hindus, not Amish, not LDS, not Catholics.

Lehi

I'm not insulting you. I'm asking a question. A lot of people think they know Sharia but what they know about it is only the things in the War-torn areas of the Middle East. The way you answer the questions and talk about Sharia gives me a clue as to your understanding of it. So far, what I have seen is that you have the same understanding of Sharia that is used by political pundits in America. Just by the virtue of you saying "replace the constitution with Sharia" is the most telling. The American Constitution is as compatible with al-Sharia as it is with Canon Law. Yet nobody is worried about Catholics wanting to replace the Constitution with Canon. Yes, certain tenets are opposing - such as the ruling of the SCOTUS that abortion is a woman's right and that homosexual marriage is allowed that are incompatible with both Canon and al-Sharia.

By the way, there's no such thing as Sharia Law in Islam, there's only al-Sharia. Sharia Law is to Islam as The US Constitution is to Judeo-Christian.. The Constitution is simply a man-made law made to rule a group of people based on Judeo-Christian principles. Many countries - Christian or otherwise - don't want the Constitution either. The Philippine Constitution is based on Canon. Many countries - Catholic or otherwise - don't want it either. There are many governments adhering to laws based on al-Sharia principles. Even in the Middle East, they're not all the same. They're just bunched together by pundits and called Sharia Law. Malaysia laws are based on al-Sharia too, yet nobody is worried about that Sharia Law.

Al-Sharia is the equivalent to Catholic Canon Law. It is a set of guiding principles given by God. The Word of Wisdom is analogous to it - except that the WoW is only a very small part LDS principles. Al-Sharia do not call for the beheading of anybody.

This is the point you keep on missing.... When Warren Jeffs molests children in the name of Christ you don't say... Oh, he did it because he's Christian. But when you see a Muslim do despicable acts, you automatically attribute it as the fault of Islam.

Edited by anatess
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do you really worry about your Islamic neighbor o the lady in the hijab getting violent? Honestly, the method I'd suggest to you, is to grow the heck up.

Yes, I do worry about them.

Get to know some Muslims in your town on a personal level.

You do not know who I know and who I do not know. I suggest you realign your deflector coils because you have failed at reading my mind.

Go find out if any mosques or Islamic centers or whatnot are hosting open houses, and go to them and ask questions and get to know people. Notice that you stood surrounded by them, and yet somehow escaped with your head still attached to your body.

I studied Islam for two years. I know something about their beliefs, and that Mouselemins run the gamut from heinous to "gems of humanity".

My query remains unaddressed: How does one tell the difference?

Do a little research (Wikipedia would be sufficient) about the numbers of Muslims in the US, and the numbers of Muslim criminals in the US. Come up with a percentage, then do the same research on Mormons. Then look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're ready to mature in your beliefs a little.

Been there, done that. But I still don't know how to tell the good Moslems from the bad ones. Do you?

Ok, so I admit I live in military-soaked, gun-permit-friendly, open-carry-popular Colorado Springs, CO. We may be closer to our means of self defense than you. But honestly, the first thing that goes through my mind when I see a hijab, is "That's cool material - I wonder if my wife would like some to do something art-n-crafty".

You're entitled to believe anything you like about Islam. I'm not denying you that right. What I am asking, and have asked severla times, is how does one tell the difference between the woman with the cool fabric in her hijab and the one who's hiding an AK under her burkah?

Assuming they are all peaceful is deadly: look in Germany, England, Holland, Dearborn. I am not suggesting they are all evil. I am suggesting we need to be wary.

In Colorado Springs, we had the (right-wing gun-nut mentally ill christian white) guy shoot up the Planned Parenthood. We also had another white guy bomb the local NAACP office.

Totally a different question. Yes, all sorts of people can be evil. Please note the PP shooter was "mentally ill". Are all those terrorist Mouselimens "mentally ill"?

But the odds of any of those things happening with the consent of a church is zero. With Islam, it's different. Thousands of imams and ayatollahs are actively preaching, around the world, and across this country, that Islam will take over the world, and that it is the job of the hearers to make it happen, by fair means or foul. And those foul means are not only encouraged, but taught.

The last mosque open house I went to, the worst thing that happened to me was they gave me a CD of dudes chanting in a language I don't understand.

So, what does this have to do with my question?

If it's "only" 1/3 of Muslims who even consider killing to achieve their millennium, that's still a million people in USmerica and a half billion around the globe. Halve that, and we still have a problem. Halve it again, and we're in not all that much less danger.

No really, LeSellers - what I'm hearing from you, I've heard from anti-mormons for decades.

Was any of it justified? Are there "Mormons" who feel compelled to defend the Lassiters?

Ignorance, matched with biased history, a lack of charity, unwarranted suspicion, and an unwillingness to consider that maybe reality is different then they demand it be.

Ignorance, no. Biased history, no. Lack of charity, no. (I plead guilty to being very wary.) Unwarranted suspicion, no: I've already given dozens of reasons that suspicion is warranted, and have barely scratched the surface.

The Sunday following September 11, 2001, I taught my Valiant class in Primary. The children were not at all wanting to talk about the Word of Wisdom: they wanted to talk about the atrocity in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. I told them that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the hijackers were anomalies, heretics. My study of Islam led me to believe that to have been true. It's the succeeding decade-and-a-half that's caused me to reconsider my earlier naïve position.

I suggest you look deeply inward.

And I, you.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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I studied Islam for two years. I know something about their beliefs, and that Mouselemins run the gamut from heinous to "gems of humanity".

 

Right - so listen - a staple claim of anti-mormons is "I've studied Mormons for years.  I know something about their beliefs."  My suggestion isn't to study them further (although I suppose, that might be a good idea depending on your willingness to consider sympathetic sources), but to get to know some that live in your proximity. 

 

 

My query remains unaddressed: How does one tell the difference?

 

The same way you can tell the difference between good Mormons and bad Mormons.   Playing the odds would leave you assuming the one you spot is good, until you see a red flag or something.  

 

 

Assuming they are all peaceful is deadly: look in Germany, England, Holland, Dearborn. I am not suggesting they are all evil. I am suggesting we need to be wary.

 

Well, you respond to your own point in your next comment.  "Yes, all sorts of people can be evil."

 

 

 

If it's "only" 1/3 of Muslims who even consider killing to achieve their millennium, that's still a million people in USmerica and a half billion around the globe. Halve that, and we still have a problem. Halve it again, and we're in not all that much less danger.

 

So again, I'd suggest totalling Muslims in the US, and then totalling Muslims in the US convicted of some sort of crime.  I'm thinking you won't find a third, or a half of a third, but perhaps a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a third.  Like, maybe a tenth of a percent or something?  Like, maybe for every ten thousand you meet, maybe a handful are dangerous, the rest are ok?  I mean, it isn't a way to measure violent potential, but it may put your "half of a half of a third" comment in perspective. 

 

 

The Sunday following September 11, 2001, I taught my Valiant class in Primary. The children were not at all wanting to talk about the Word of Wisdom: they wanted to talk about the atrocity in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. I told them that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the hijackers were anomalies, heretics. My study of Islam led me to believe that to have been true. It's the succeeding decade-and-a-half that's caused me to reconsider my earlier naïve position.

 

I can understand what you're saying here.  The history of violent jihad shouldn't be brushed aside.  The understanding that it's coming to our shores in greater and greater amounts is important to have.  Coming to grips that substantive elements of certain ideologies want us dead, and are ramping up efforts, is important.  But dang - it seems like we're reading the same stuff, and yet I'm comfortable around random Muslims and you're worried the lady you meet is going to pull an AK47.  You tell me - was interring the Japanese Americans in WWII a good idea?
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I studied Islam for two years. I know something about their beliefs, and that Mouselemins run the gamut from heinous to "gems of humanity". 

My suggestion isn't to study them further (although I suppose, that might be a good idea depending on your willingness to consider sympathetic sources), but to get to know some that live in your proximity.

The trouble with your suggestion is that right here, in Denver, there is a mosque where the imam preaches the very jihad we're discussing. At least two of his congregation have committed violent felonies in the past.

 

 

The same way you can tell the difference between good Mormons and bad Mormons.   Playing the odds would leave you assuming the one you spot is good, until you see a red flag or something.

Except, you get one chance to get it right. Very few "bad 'Mormons'" want to kill you.

 

 

Well, you respond to your own point in your next comment.  "Yes, all sorts of people can be evil."

I am wary in most situations. But with Mouselmens, the odds of their being violent is far higher than with other populations, so my wariness rises significantly.

You seem to be saying that one should not be wary. That's like telling women that because it's wrong to rape, they should just go ahead and walk down that dark alley, or cross that parking lot at midnight with earbuds on.

 

So again, I'd suggest totalling Muslims in the US, and then totalling Muslims in the US convicted of some sort of crime.  I'm thinking you won't find a third, or a half of a third, but perhaps a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a third.  Like, maybe a tenth of a percent or something?  Like, maybe for every ten thousand you meet, maybe a handful are dangerous, the rest are ok?  I mean, it isn't a way to measure violent potential, but it may put your "half of a half of a third" comment in perspective.

Half of half of a third is 8.5%, with two million Mouselmins in USmerica, that would be 166,667. ½18 * 2,000,000 = 2½. I'll put my estimate up against yours anytime and imagine that my number is closer.

The Sunday following September 11, 2001, I taught my Valiant class in Primary. The children were not at all wanting to talk about the Word of Wisdom: they wanted to talk about the atrocity in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. I told them that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the hijackers were anomalies, heretics. My study of Islam led me to believe that to have been true. It's the succeeding decade-and-a-half that's caused me to reconsider my earlier naïve position.

 

I can understand what you're saying here.  The history of violent jihad shouldn't be brushed aside.  The understanding that it's coming to our shores in greater and greater amounts is important to have.  Coming to grips that substantive elements of certain ideologies want us dead, and are ramping up efforts, is important.  But dang - it seems like we're reading the same stuff, and yet I'm comfortable around random Muslims and you're worried the lady you meet is going to pull an AK47.

You're reading more into my caution than you should. I advocate wariness, you seem to want to ignore the very real possibility of the Mouselmin could be from the Middle East (h/t anetess) and quite ready and willing to slit your throat.

As for interring the Japanese, wariness of Mouslemins is not the same thing at all.

However, there was a good case for doing it (some USmerican Japanese were captured performing espionage). But it would have been far better to do good police work and track those who showed allegiance to the emperor. The difference is that a "good" Mouslim can go bad in a matter of weeks or days, and there is little evidence that any Japanese who were loyal in 1941 were not likely to be disloyal in 1945.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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One source I might suggest as you go about trying to tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy: Principles of Personal Defense - Jeff Cooper  The author lays out behaviors and circumstances that should give people pause, regardless of the actor's faith or motivations.

Yes, wariness, situational awareness.

I suppose the revelers in San Bernardino should have known that Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik were coming back to kill them. But, of course, being government employees (not "government workers"), they were forced to be, however wary or ignorant, unable to defend themselves.

Lehi

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I am wary in most situations. But with Mouselmens, the odds of their being violent is far higher than with other populations, so my wariness rises significantly.

You seem to be saying that one should not be wary. That's like telling women that because it's wrong to rape, they should just go ahead and walk down that dark alley, or cross that parking lot at midnight with earbuds on.

 

This is the crux of your argument.

 

Nobody is saying not to be wary.

 

But... this problem is the same problem with Black People in America.  A lot of crime is committed by black people so much so that when you're walking in an alley and black kid in a hoodie is walking towards somebody, that somebody crosses the street and walks on the opposite sidewalk.  Yet black people committing crime is a small percentage of the entire black population.  I understand the wariness.  And one should be careful and defend one's own with every manner necessary.  But this kind of prejudice becomes a problem when we don't recognize that IT IS A PREJUDICE.  That prejudice of black people fuels the problem of racial tensions in the US instead of fixing it.  So, how do you know that the black kid in a hoodie coming at you in an alley is good guy or a bad guy?  Especially when you're a cop - how do you tell?

 

By the same token, I have no problem with America temporarily shutting down immigration from war-torn countries in the Middle-East until they can install a process of weeding out the terrorists.  But this becomes a problem when we don't recognize that IT IS A PREJUDICE.

 

That same prejudice of Muslims also fuels the problem of terrorism instead of fixing it.  After all, the most active governments fighting ISIS right now are Muslims - Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt, etc. etc.  When you even refuse to see the difference between your friends and your enemies in a war, you have a problem.  The same problem as the cop who can't figure out if the black kid in a hoodie is a good guy or a bad guy.  I can understand that the Obama cabinet has failed to install measures to identify the bad guys - and this is all because of a political agenda and political correctness.  Therefore, I can find wisdom in stopping immigration until we can rid the government of these policies and bring Intelligence back to DHS.  But that's entirely different from a person not being able to identify that their next-door Muslim neighbor or their Muslim co-worker is a good guy or bad guy because they believe Islam is terrorism.

 

And that's all I'm saying on this thread.  Lehi, you have a prejudice against Muslims.  We're not talking about just jihadist muslims.  You have a problem with the Muslim religion, period.  You need to see beyond this prejudice, study the cultural progression of the Ottoman Empire and the areas of the Levant and see what cultural conditions fostered the rise to power of undesirable leaders that can charm a slew of followers.  Then you'll understand the differences in culture between a Muslim growing up in Palestine and a Muslim growing up in Bahrain, etc.

Edited by anatess
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My suggestion isn't to study them further (although I suppose, that might be a good idea depending on your willingness to consider sympathetic sources), but to get to know some that live in your proximity.
The trouble with your suggestion is that right here, in Denver, there is a mosque where the imam preaches the very jihad we're discussing. At least two of his congregation have committed violent felonies in the past.
Ok, so, how about these folks:
 
2124 S. Birch Street 
Denver, CO 80222 
 
It looks like they hold open houses every month or so - just missed the last one on Saturday.  How about you go to the next one?  Or even better, how about I meet you there?  I'd be willing to drive up from Colorado Springs.  Safety in numbers and all that.   
 

 

The DIS staff and the overall Muslim community of Colorado will be honored to have the opportunity to say hello and give you an idea of who we are and what Muslims and Islam are all about.  You will have an opportunity to network, ask questions and give your support to your fellow Americans during these challenging times.  We look forward to having you and sharing delicious sweets and refreshments with you!
 
What do you say, LeSellers, you up to going?
Edited by NeuroTypical
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[being wary of Mouselemins] is the same problem with Black People in America.  A lot of crime is committed by black people so much so that when you're walking in an alley and black kid in a hoodie is walking towards somebody, that somebody crosses the street and walks on the opposite sidewalk.  Yet black people committing crime is a small percentage of the entire black population.  I understand the wariness.  And one should be careful and defend one's own with every manner necessary.  But this kind of prejudice becomes a problem when we don't recognize that IT IS A PREJUDICE.  That prejudice of black people fuels the problem of racial tensions in the US instead of fixing it.  So, how do you know that the black kid in a hoodie coming at you in an alley is good guy or a bad guy?  Especially when you're a cop - how do you tell?

Of course it's prejudice, no one would deny it, certainly not I. But it is a prejudice based on experience.

It was Jesse Jackson who said when he hears someone following him in the dark, he hopes it's a White guy. He doesn't know the (potentially) Black guy who is following him, but he's prejudiced against him anyway, even though he's Black, too.

Prejudices against one person (which is what a prejudice is in the end), based on experience is rational. It is foolish to ignore experience when one's life (or culture) is in danger. So I freely admit to being prejudcied, and I hope a lot of other people are, as well. Otherwise, the requisite wariness is not going to put us on guard against the possible harm this person represents.

 

By the same token, I have no problem with America temporarily shutting down immigration from war-torn countries in the Middle-East until they can install a process of weeding out the terrorists.  But this becomes a problem when we don't recognize that IT IS A PREJUDICE.

You're assuming prejudice is, ispo facto bad. Your not having a problem with shutting down immigration shows that some wariness (based on prejudice) is not only not bad, but desirable.

 

That same prejudice of Muslims also fuels the problem of terrorism instead of fixing it.  After all, the most active governments fighting ISIS right now are Muslims - Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt, etc. etc.  When you even refuse to see the difference between your friends and your enemies in a war, you have a problem.  The same problem as the cop who can't figure out if the black kid in a hoodie is a good guy or a bad guy.  I can understand that the Obama cabinet has failed to install measures to identify the bad guys - and this is all because of a political agenda and political correctness.  Therefore, I can find wisdom in stopping immigration until we can rid the government of these policies and bring Intelligence back to DHS.

Perhaps, but I have heard enough Muselimins say that they wish TSA would profile them instead of Grammas in wheelchairs because they, too, are wary about other Moselims who might be carrying a bomb or box cutters that the notion of Islamists' being potential terrorists isn't just a Lehi phenomenon.

It doesn't seem too great an expectation to ask of others, including Moselimins, that they stop taking offense at everything. Brigham Young said that he who takes offense when none is intended is a fool. And, further, that he who takes offense when it is intended is a greater fool. While I am overtly prejudiced against Muslims based on experience, it seems that many people are prejudiced against them because they consider them too childish to ignore insults. "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me," is a lesson a whole lot of people seem to have missed in their childhood.

The people in San Bernadino didn't know that Farook, a U.S. Citizen, was a bad guy. So the question, as with Jackson and his prejudice against Black guys in hoodies, is how does one tell? 'Cuz, fer shure, it ain't by a nice demeanor or a smile, or any other visual marking, and, apparently, it's not by long friendship, either.

 

But that's entirely different from a person not being able to identify that their next-door Muslim neighbor or their Muslim co-worker is a good guy or bad guy because they believe Islam is terrorism.

The fact that not all Moslims are terrorists does not negate the fact that most terrorists are Muslmens.

Wariness is always in order. And knowing the someone is Moslem should heighten that caution.

 

Lehi, you have a prejudice against Muslims.

Indeed, I do. If you don't I fear for your safety.

 

We're not talking about just jihadist muslims [sic].

Jihad is integral to their religion. It's in their book. It's in their mosques (right here, in Denver, the mosque produced a couple of terrorists, so it's not a vague, somewhere-out-there, fear — it's very, very real).

 

You have a problem with the Muslim religion, period.  You need to see beyond this prejudice, study the cultural progression of the Ottoman Empire and the areas of the Levant and see what cultural conditions fostered the rise to power of undesirable leaders that can charm a slew of followers.  Then you'll understand the differences in culture between a Muslim growing up in Palestine and a Muslim growing up in Bahrain, etc.

When a Bahrainian Mouslim kills a dozen people, would that justify my prejudice? (BTW, Don't go to Bahrain to enjoy the sun and sand: you'll end up in jail for indecent exposure.)

My question remains unanswered, at least the implication is not refuted: how does one tell the good guys from the bad? There are no markers, physical or behavioral the distinguishes one from the other, and a good guy can be radicalized so who was once a peaceable Moslem can, virtually overnight, a terrorist. Faruk was not always a mass murderer, and even with more than two years of radicalization before he and his wife abandoned their daughter to kill more'n a dozen people because it was a "Christmas party".

Yes, I am prejudiced. Prejudice, based on experience, is not always a bad thing.

Edited by LeSellers
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What do you say, LeSellers, you up to going?

I probably should, although I am wary about exposing myself to potential terrorists even if it's a fair way out.

I am the Interfaith Outreach Specialist in our stake. this is part of the calling I am really uncomfortable.

Lehi

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I'm really tired of arguing this stupid thing.

 

Nobody seems to want to understand anything.

 

WHEN YOU can't see how Vort and I can say we are grateful for our muslim friends, your prejudice has ceased to be desirable.  Your prejudice has become sinful.

 

Islam is not a bad religion.

 

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

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On 1/18/2016 at 9:02 AM, anatess said:

Nobody seems to want to understand anything.

Seems you are in the same boat, but different side.

Quote

WHEN YOU can't see how Vort and I can say we are grateful for our muslim friends, your prejudice has ceased to be desirable.  Your prejudice has become sinful.

You have every right to be grateful for your Moslem friends

As to my sins, please leave that up to God, or at least His representatives who have stewardship over me.

Quote

Islam is not a bad religion.

There are but two churches only.

If it makes people better, then, fine. I haven't seen enough of that side of it, and far too much of the other.

 

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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We went to the local, neighborhood park (immediately adjacent to the stake center) this morning with some of our grandchildren. When we got to the picnic pavilion, here's what we saw:

There was also some graffiti saying "Rest in Paradise". No known connection, but a little unsettling.

Lehi

post-66597-0-91935500-1453176960_thumb.j

Edited by LeSellers
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It may be helpful to know that, until about five years ago, I was in the it's-a-rare-Muslim-who-is-a-terrorist, we-should-treat-them-like-anyone-else camp.

But, since I was studying the question with as open a mind as anyone, the evidence continued to mount that Islam, whatever its origins, seemed to lead far more people to "the dark side" than any other faith tradition.

So, from being one who essentially shared Vort's and anatess's PoV, I followed the evidence to where I am now:very, very wary of Mouslemins. It was not a quick, and it was a painful transition.

I know a few Moselmins: there's only one of them I have any obvious reason to mistrust. But fact-based experience and observations make me hesitant to give any of the others unquestioned trust.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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It may be helpful to know that, until about five years ago, I was in the it's-a-rare-Muslim-who-is-a-terrorist, we-should-treat-them-like-anyone-else camp.

But, since I was studying the question with as open a mind as anyone, the evidence continued to mount that Islam, whatever its origins, seemed to lead far more people to "the dark side" than any other faith tradition.

So, from being one who essentially shared Vort's and anatess's PoV, I followed the evidence to where I am now:very, very wary of Mouslemins. It was not a quick, and it was a painful transition.

I know a few Moselmins: there's only one of them I have any obvious reason to mistrust. But fact-based experience and observations make me hesitant to give any of the others unquestioned trust.

Lehi

 

You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

Next time you feel up to studying again - study the CULTURE of the people that comprise that religion.  It's bad enough being a Muslim getting wiped out by ISIS.  It's more than an insult being Muslim getting wiped out by ISIS AND being blamed for it.

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You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

Next time you feel up to studying again - study the CULTURE of the people that comprise that religion.  It's bad enough being a Muslim getting wiped out by ISIS.  It's more than an insult being Muslim getting wiped out by ISIS AND being blamed for it.

 

Just so we are all clear about the Islamic religion (and other religions other than the LDS)  This is what the L-rd said:

 

Pof GP Joseph Smith history

 

 

....which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.  .....
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Just so we are all clear about the Islamic religion (and other religions other than the LDS)  This is what the L-rd said:

 

Pof GP Joseph Smith history

 

What does that have to do with what we're talking about?

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Then I would be ignoring the knowledgeable counsel of T.E. Lawrence who said (I'm citing from memory) that when some of his readers commented that he had spelled his own name in several different ways, that he wished he had written it in even more, since the Arabs he had lived with for years pronounced it differently, and spelled it differently (in English) almost every time they spoke it.

There are no vowels in Arabic (although there are "points" — not used in normal writing), so "Islam" is the same word, essentially as "Solomon": "peace" because of the consonants SLM. In any case, I prefer a variety in spelling this word (which ought to be obvious, as I do it), and since "spelling" is a convention imposed on us, first by printers and then by schoolmen (like Noah Webster), I'll just follow the further (implied) advice of Samuel Clemens: I don't trust a man who can only spell a word one way.

Lehi

 

No problem, "Lehigh" "Cellars".  I'll be sure to keep that in mind during our next discussion about the religion of Moron-ism.

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No problem, "Lehigh" "Cellars".

English, unlike Arabic, has written vowels. English speakers, unlike Arabic speakers, pronounce words the same way, irrespective of the surrounding words.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind during our next discussion about the religion of Moron-ism.

LeSellers, unlike Just_A_Guy, does not change one fundamental sound for another.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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English, unlike Arabic, has written vowels. English speakers, unlike Arabic speakers, pronounce words the same way, irrespective of the surrounding words.

LeSellers, unlike Just_A_Guy, does not change one fundamental sound for another.

Lehi

 

Last I checked...  You are writing English not Arabic...  If you can pretend you writing Arabic with English letters, And totally make up new words, then you have no grounds to have issues with someone else doing it

Edited by estradling75
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Last I checked...  You are writing English not Arabic...  If you can pretend you writing Arabic with English letters, And totally make up new words, then you have no grounds to have issues with someone else doing it

Who's objecting?

I pointed out the differences between "Moron-ism" and "Mouslemin" compared to the "standard" spellings.

Further, every spelling of Moslem I have used was used in journalism or scholarly writing over the past 250 years, and accepted as legitimate. The same cannot be said of "Moron-sim".

Finally, while "Lehigh" and "Cellars" are homophones of my names, they are not my names, and actually mean other things. "Mouslemins" and "Moslims" are etymologically identical.

Lehi

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LeSellers, what is your purpose in using so many archaic variants of the word "Muslim"? Because it looks to me like your purpose is to mock and denigrate those who follow Islam. If you have another purpose, one that actually makes the usage of a dozen different spellings and pronunciations of "Muslim" look reasonable, please fill us in.

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Lehi:

 

That's malarkey, and everyone reading this thread knows it.  The lack of vowels in ancient Hebrew wouldn't justify an English-speaker in writing of the "Ubrohimuc covenant" instead of the "Abrahamic covenant"; and spoken English is full of regional variants (even in Utah, where we might drive up Spanish "Fark" Canyon, climb the "heel", and go on into the "moun-uhns").  I defy you to produce a single  modern English-speaking Muslim, or modern non-Muslim scholar of any repute, who uses as many variants of the word "Muslim" as you have in this thread.

 

You're going out of your way to be offensive.  Knock it off.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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