How much would you support married children?


Backroads
 Share

Recommended Posts

In order to follow that counsel to its fullest, women need to be getting married and pregnant at the onset of menses. Otherwise they're putting off having children for lesser reasons. I doubt you'd find any support for that among Church leadership for the simple reason that we are expected to prepare ourselves to support and guide children before having them, and modern society makes it rather difficult to complete certain steps of that preparation before age 18/19/20. Marriage is one of those steps, but by no means does it always have to be the last one; putting off marriage because you're not ready to have children is not somehow more righteous than marrying while not ready, and then waiting to have the children.

If you're not going to be ready to have children until you're 25 either way, then refusing to marry at 20 is just delaying one of the most critical steps in the process until you're ready to finish the whole thing. Might as well wait until just before mission age to get baptized at that rate. (Well, ok, a year before mission age, but still, the process doesn't have to be held until all the waterfowl are completely linearized just so you can blast through multiple steps as quickly as possible.)

 

It's nice to just say stuff. But as omega said to me: I'd like to see proof of this. Of course you won't find any counsel anywhere to put off marriage and family in this church. You just won't.

 

Congrats on your google search abilities, but I haven't see a "thus saith the Lord"

 

Of course everyone reading along knows full well that I said it was what was "counseled" by our leaders. Apparently now even counsel requires a "Thus saith the Lord" to be valid too.

 

*sigh*

 

Do what you will. It's your business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Congrats on your google search abilities

 

The sad thing is that doing a search (this was a search on lds.org, not google...but it amounts to the same thing) is an ability that pretty much every one of us has. And yet people still seem to want to believe their own ideas of what the church counsels and/or does not, in spite of the ease and availability of said searches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sad thing is that doing a search (this was a search on lds.org, not google...but it amounts to the same thing) is an ability that pretty much every one of us has. And yet people still seem to want to believe their own ideas of what the church counsels and/or does not, in spite of the ease and availability of said searches.

I apologize for my snarky comment it was uncalled for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TFP, your presentation carried the vibe that if you aren't pregnant immediately upon marriage, you're sinning.

 

How could it possibly carry that vibe? The comment was made that you shouldn't get pregnant if you can't afford it. I said that's against church counsel. Wherein does the "vibe" come in that there's anything more to it than what I said?

 

The counsel is and has been to not put off having children for financial stability (and other "weak" reasons such as the wife not being robust or an interrupted social life).

 

Any other "vibe" is presumption stemming from plain bias.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're right, but the conversation stared back to needing to get pregnant early on.

 

I guess the key word is "needing". Do we "need" to get pregnant early on? That's a different question than "should" we get pregnant early on. Which, even then, isn't the right question because it implies things that may not be accurate. The correct question is should we put off pregnancy for <insert idea>? There are a few inserts that render the answer yes. There are a great many inserts that render the answer no. I would dare bet (and I take this from the "vibe" of responses as much as anything) that a great deal more than should answer yes to the questions they should be answering no to. But that's their business, of course. Each couple's choice is their own. But principles are principles. And the principles of when to get pregnant as taught by our leaders is not simply "it's up to you". Of course it IS up to you...it's always up to you. We have agency. But that thought is woefully short of what has been counselled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That being said.  If someone wants to get married and do grown up stuff, then they need to be treated like grown ups.  

 

If a parent has set aside, or committed a certain amount of $ towards education, then it is appropriate for them to keep that money flowing post marriage of their child.  However, they should not subsidize any type of lifestyle of the married couple, just because things are tough for newlyweds.

 

If my child wants to get married, then they get no more $$, other than what I may have set aside for their education only.  

 

They need to figure out where to live, how to eat, etc, etc. 

Edited by mdfxdb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My brother and his wife had a honeymoon baby. It was very, very bad for their marriage. Financially they made it through okay and ended up in good shape, but in other ways they really should have had more time to solidify their marriage. They are getting divorced now, and this is one of the contributors. Not that they regret having their son, just that they regret having him so soon. It was after he was born that things started going downhill. I'm not saying their divorce is justified for that reason (it certainly is for others), but it was kind of the beginning of a very long end. 

 

My husband and I had planned to wait at least a year. Not because we wanted more money, or we wanted to give up our freedom. We just wanted to iron out some kinks and have time to grow closer. However, I received very very strong promptings about 2 months in that we ought not wait, and as it turned out it took almost 4 very tough  years to get our daughter here. 

 

I've had family members who've felt they should wait, and did, and everything turned out fine. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the key word is "needing". Do we "need" to get pregnant early on? That's a different question than "should" we get pregnant early on. Which, even then, isn't the right question because it implies things that may not be accurate. The correct question is should we put off pregnancy for <insert idea>? There are a few inserts that render the answer yes. There are a great many inserts that render the answer no. I would dare bet (and I take this from the "vibe" of responses as much as anything) that a great deal more than should answer yes to the questions they should be answering no to. But that's their business, of course. Each couple's choice is their own. But principles are principles. And the principles of when to get pregnant as taught by our leaders is not simply "it's up to you". Of course it IS up to you...it's always up to you. We have agency. But that thought is woefully short of what has been counselled.

 

Editing: I'm seeing a derailing, so my question will be on a separate thread.

Edited by Backroads
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Hand book 1:

 

17.3.4
Birth Control

It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.

Married couples should also understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a way of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.

 

 

 

 

This doesn't really say anything about what the "counsel" is though - beyond the fact that, of course, it's between the couple and the Lord, and we shouldn't judge. The "counsel" to not judge others is pretty universal to these sorts of things, and has absolutely no bearing on what the other counsel is that has been given. And the counselling of others to do something that will bring them greater joy is not the equivalent of judging them, despite the trend to claim it is.

 

But since there's another thread opened on the subject, perhaps further discussion should be entertained there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the "respecting the degree" comment.  I don't know if it is about respecting the degree so much, but the effort and learning and dedication.  There is a tendency that the harder you work for something, the more you value it.  While others have other levels of "respect" for the education, mine (whatever it would have been without it) was increased because of the difficulty I had.

 

As I said, I was raised to be completely independent by 18.  My reasoning is no more or less deep than that.  But I had a personal experience that says to me that working harder for it made it worth more to me.

 

When I was at school, I did the regular thing of going to school, working during the summer and going back again.  At some point I ran out of money because I was so involved in extra-curricular activities (student govt and so on).  I decided between paying rent or paying tuition.  For most people, no brainer, rent.  But I also recognized that I'd been going the slow route and I was getting older.  So, I chose tuition and I became homeless.

 

At that time, I learned what being homeless was like.  I became known as the "ghost of the Clyde Building".  Some friends called me "Rudy".  

 

I didn't like the situation and wanted to get out as soon as possible.  I got three jobs while taking a couple classes through the spring and summer.  In the fall, I dropped one job.  But my best paying job became a full-time internship.  So, I was working 50 hours / wk while doing a reduced, but full-time school schedule year-round.

 

When I graduated, yes, I felt proud that I did it on my own.  Just getting through school, for me, was an accomplishment that increased my self-confidence.  I believe it was due to this experience that I mentally attuned myself to remember all I had learned more than most.  So, I did value the knowledge more than I would have if I had not worked so hard for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I graduated, yes, I felt proud that I did it on my own.  Just getting through school, for me, was an accomplishment that increased my self-confidence.  I believe it was due to this experience that I mentally attuned myself to remember all I had learned more than most.  So, I did value the knowledge more than I would have if I had not worked so hard for it.

 

Agree with the working hard for it.  But then, having to figure out where your next lunch will come from while studying for exams is not the only way to work hard for it.

 

When your dad denies you dinner because you got a 1/10 in a quiz in first grade... and gives you an hour-long lecture because you made a careless mistake in senior year finals even after you got 99/100... working hard for it is the only way to go - it just becomes a part of who we are.  And then you see him working hard for a living so he can pay for your college... it's a powerful motivation.

 

If my brother was left to his own devices he wouldn't go to college.  He basically went to college so he can hand my dad his diploma - he desired to please my father and he worked hard through college while traveling with the soccer team out of his love for my dad.  It wasn't until he got injured and had to go on an early retirement from soccer that he appreciated his diploma for its value to himself.  I've always looked at this as a micro-example of our Heavenly Father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone can support a wife.

Exactly; the "necessities of life and protection" for one more person would mean adding ~2000 calories a day (less than a dollar in rice and sugar) to my budget, a couple extra dollars a month on the water bill and an extra roll of toilet paper from time to time. Other than that, there's already a roof overhead and a door that locks. There are plenty of happy families in the world who even manage to do without the toilet paper.

Edited by NightSG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone can support a wife.

That's true until the divorce lawyers and judges demand that one support a wife with more'n half his income.

Then there are very few who can afford a wife.

Lehi

P.S. In XXI USmerica, the woman initiates the divorce in more than 2/3 of the cases. I don't know about within the Church, but I can't seen any significant difference — it may be worse. LS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator

That's true until the divorce lawyers and judges demand that one support a wife with more'n half his income.

Then there are very few who can afford a wife.

Lehi

P.S. In XXI USmerica, the woman initiates the divorce in more than 2/3 of the cases. I don't know about within the Church, but I can't seen any significant difference — it may be worse. LS

 Correct. That's why a pre-nup is so important. 

I've noticed that many believers lean towards taking the females side and paint the man out horribly. One of my closest friends got cleaned out by a cheating wife and people still blame him for it. 

Edited by MormonGator
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I graduated, yes, I felt proud that I did it on my own.  Just getting through school, for me, was an accomplishment that increased my self-confidence....  So, I did value the knowledge more than I would have if I had not worked so hard for it.

Exactly!!  It really is a simple concept that one sees in young children.  Human beings are inherently lazy-they want to do the least amount of work for the most gain.

 

When I wasn't quite as wise as a parent with my first kid, I would teach him how to tie his shoes. I'd show it to him, walk him through it, etc. Sure enough, Sunday would come and he would complain, "I can't tie my shoes", I'd do it all for him or do part of it for him, etc. We would continue to go through this process every week for a long time-well past the time when he had the ability to do so. I finally realized that I was enabling his lack of confidence and co-dependence. He internally, without conscientiously knowing it, was lazy-knew it took some effort to actually learn how to tie his shoes and simply didn't have enough self-confidence that he could do it himself and didn't want to put forth the effort to learn because "dad would do it for him".

 

I finally wised up and realized that the only way for kids to actually gain self-confidence is for them to put for the hard work themselves and just do it without me babying them every step of the way. Telling them "you can do it" and cajoling them 100 of times wasn't going to work. Simply stating a few times with confidence "Son, I know you can do it" walking away and letting him struggle by himself until he got it, built up his self-confidence, motivation and self-reliance.

 

It took me a while to figure out how to raise my kids the way my parents raised me.  I was raised so independently that it would have literally been insulting to me (yes I do mean insulting to me) for my parents to have provided for my education.  In effect, that would be telling me "hey yjacket, you don't have the ability to do this on your own" so let me do it for you. It's the same as telling the 6 year, "you are old enough to physically be able to tie your shoes, but I'm going to do it for you".

 

When you have such an independent self-reliant attitude you are able to better distinguish between true charity and simple welfare. True charity is helping someone when they honestly don't have the capacity to do so-the mentally ill, the physically disabled, those who are going through severe medical problems, etc. Charity enables someone to get through the hard times and breeds gratitude and humility; welfare enables dependency, ingratitude, and a weak self reliance.

 

But my 2 cents won't get you a cup of coffee:-).

Edited by yjacket
Link to comment
Share on other sites

yjacket - certainly you don't believe that every child who doesn't have their parent say "I know you can do it" and walk away will be slow at learning to tie their shoes? We're all different. We all learn different. We respond differently to different stimuli. We have different work ethics, laziness factors, motivations, intelligence, etc., etc. I just can't see applying a universal approach like this as the end all of it. Not to mention that comparing a 5 year old's work ethic to a college aged kid doesn't really work. In some ways college aged are worse, of course. In some ways they're much more capable. But they're all, very, very different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yjacket - certainly you don't believe that every child who doesn't have their parent say "I know you can do it" and walk away will be slow at learning to tie their shoes? We're all different. We all learn different. We respond differently to different stimuli. We have different work ethics, laziness factors, motivations, intelligence, etc., etc. I just can't see applying a universal approach like this as the end all of it. Not to mention that comparing a 5 year old's work ethic to a college aged kid doesn't really work. In some ways college aged are worse, of course. In some ways they're much more capable. But they're all, very, very different.

 

x2!

 

My 2 boys experience with tying shoes...

First child:  I showed him how to do it once step-by-step.  So then, he did it himself and couldn't remember the step so I tried to show him again and he says, "No, no, no!  I can do it!  I can do it!", so I sit there waiting for him to execute it properly, gritting my teeth with impatience... I finally went to get my own shoes and tied it while he tied his.

 

2nd child:  I showed him the exact same way.  So then, he did it himself and couldn't remember the step so I tried to show him again and his older brother says, "I did it all in one try!" (which he didn't, but, oh well), so his older brother says, "I can do it too!  I can do it too!", so I sit there again gritting my teeth with impatience...

 

Today, age 12 and 14:

The older kid is still the same way... learned to drive the car at 12 years old because "I can do it!  I can do it!"... I left him in the car by the pump while I ran into the gas station... he drove off and parked the car infront of the store.  Had to give him a lecture on it.

 

The younger kid is completely different (amazing when they both came out of the same stomach).  He has this default position that growing up is over-rated.  But he's not about to be one-upped by his brother.  So his brother tells him, I already drove the car when I was your age... to which his brother would reply, I'm not driving the car until I'm 15 because it is illegal.

 

Both know that they're going to college.  It's a given.  They're going.  It's already mostly paid for.  They both have accounts at UESP.  They know they have to get straight A's now so they can get into a good college.  They also know if they get a full-ride college scholarship I'm buying them a car.  They both have their dream cars hanging on their bedroom wall.

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share