Sins & depression


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Look, they've seen me in depressed states and they tell me to just stop. It isn't a made up problem. No, i haven't spoken to them personally about it, but i can pretty much see what they think it is already.

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Look, they've seen me in depressed states and they tell me to just stop.

Of course they do if you're just walking around unhappy. You just come across as a moody teenager. They have no way of guessing that you have more serious issues. They're not mind readers. Talk to them.

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First off, man made chemicals are not the answer.  That answer won't go over well with most people, but I dealt with clinical depression until I turned 54.  I had a double diagnosis of major depression and dysthymia.  For eleven of those years, I was suicidal and became a drug addict.  Over a 15 year span, doctors tried me on 22 different anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, and anti-psychotic drugs; not one of them worked.  For those last eleven years, I had jumping out of bed, running around the room, screaming nightmares.  I had them at least six nights a week, usually 2-3 times each night.  One drug I was given, Seroquel, was an anti-psychotic that was for schizophrenics and was supposed to make me sleep.  It did: 12 hours a day and I had constant nightmares.  That was the doctor's idea of helping me manage my depressive symptoms: sleeping my life away.

 

The problem with anti-depressants is that doctors don't really know how they work other than through observation or patient response.  There are absolutely no tests that measure the amount of brain chemicals (too much or too little); not one.  There are theories about how these drugs work to level out the brain chemicals, but that all it is: a theory.  I have no doubt that in some way the neurotransmitters are messed up, but putting toxic man made chemicals in your body is not the answer.

 

My first questions would be about your background. I strongly suspect that there is something in your past that is causing you trouble and you have not dealt with it. My second suspicion would be that you may have a current situation in your life that is causing/contributing to your depression. In my case, it was both. It wasn't until I began dealing with my childhood and present situation that I was able to conquer my depression.

 

From what you have described, it seems to me that you are using “sin” to medicate yourself. Whatever your sin is seems to give you a lift You seem to be trying to forget or suppress, or run from something that is troubling you. I used drugs to give me that lift. Literally, the only time I felt remotely human was when I was higher than a kite.

 

Before I would ever trust drugs, I would try cognitive therapy. However, you have to be careful about that since very few counselors use spiritually based counseling techniques. I saw several LDS counselors over several years and what they did was mingle their secular learning with the teachings of Mormonism. None of them recognized the adversary's role in the causes of depression and were unable to help me. This is something that delayed my recovery for years. Once I did recognize it, I was able to take steps against the adversary and beat my depression.

 

The problem with many people is that doctors have become a golden calf. Run to the doctor for everything is their philosophy. Doctors are good if they have the ability to discern what is truly wrong. What many people don't do is turn to the Gospel, to faith, and to Christ. They believe more in doctors and science for curing their ailments. A doctor is good for curing broken bones, doing necessary surgery, or putting in stitches. For what ails your soul, because depression is a disease of the spirit, turn to the Savior.

 

 

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Look, they've seen me in depressed states and they tell me to just stop. It isn't a made up problem. No, i haven't spoken to them personally about it, but i can pretty much see what they think it is already.

Lily, I understand. My parents were not the sort I could turn to for help either.

But is there someone else you can talk to?

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It's always wise to follow the council of untrained nuts on the internet instead of seeking the advice of professionals.

 

Not.

 

What makes you think that a "professional" is better than someone with experience in actually overcoming the problem? One might say the "untrained nut" takes a "one size fits all" approach, but that is exactly what the "professional" does.  I have years of experience dealing with about 15 different "professionals."  Without exception, including those who were LDS counselors, they all used the same secular theories, the same secular ideas getting the same results: nothing.  Einstein said that the definition of madness was doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results.

 

Have you ever watched the DVD's, "Marketing Madness" and "Dead Wrong?"  More than 20 psychiatrists coming from a world conference on psychiatry were asked if psychiatry was a measurable science and whether they had actual scientific measureable proof in regards to chemical imbalances in the brain that legitimized the DSM findings for mental disorders.  Every single "doctor" said that no, there is no way to measure chemical imbalances in the brain.  It is actually based on theory.

 

I guess you could call Christ an "untrained nut" also since he never had any formal education, but He is the person we're supposed to turn to.

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But i'll just drop this topic all together.

Please don't. I know for your generation, the internet is an easy way to find help, and sometimes not good help. So the fact that you are here, on an LDS website where there are reasonably sensible people to help you, please stay and talk as much as you need about what you're going through.

 

I think some others have given some great advice about how to approach this, with your concerns of your parents not believing you. As LiterateParakeet said, is there another adult you think would approach this problem in the way that you believe they would believe you? 

 

I think I am safe to say that none of us here want you to continue to feel the way that you do. We want you to find happiness and joy, especially at the age you are in. It is very far from easy being a teenager. So much is going on during those stages of life. But it is a time that can be wonderful, and exciting, and full of joy. 

 

What steps do you feel would be best in this scenario, knowing that you don't think your parents will believe you? 

Edited by BeccaKirstyn
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What makes you think that a "professional" is better than someone with experience in actually overcoming the problem? 

 

Because professional knowledge is typically collective. The person who overcame's knowledge is typically individual, biased, closed minded, and shallow.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Because professional knowledge is typically collective. The person who overcame's knowledge is typically individual, biased, closed minded, and shallow.

 There is something in the water today because FP and I agree 100%. 

Anti-Depsressants keep many of us from, well, depression. I speak only for myself on this, but "Big pharma" saved my mother in laws life with Chemo. I love established medicine, and thank God for it. 

 

Think about it this way: if your son or daughter gets arrested, would you recommend they get Al the Plumber (no, nothing wrong with plumbers) to represent them or an established attorney? Well, what about Al the Bus Driver as your cardiologist?  

Edited by MormonGator
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Please read Elder Holland's message, "Like a Broken Vessel". Now there is someone who is experienced, highly educated, and is one of the Lord' s anointed.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/like-a-broken-vessel?lang=eng

 

 

 

The Apostle Peter wrote that disciples of Jesus Christ are to have “compassion one of another.” 1 In that spirit I wish to speak to those who suffer from some form of mental illness or emotional disorder, whether those afflictions be slight or severe, of brief duration or persistent over a lifetime. We sense the complexity of such matters when we hear professionals speak of neuroses and psychoses, of genetic predispositions and chromosome defects, of bipolarity, paranoia, and schizophrenia. However bewildering this all may be, these afflictions are some of the realities of mortal life, and there should be no more shame in acknowledging them than in acknowledging a battle with high blood pressure or the sudden appearance of a malignant tumor.
If things continue to be debilitating, seek the advice of reputable people with certified training, professional skills, and good values. Be honest with them about your history and your struggles. Prayerfully and responsibly consider the counsel they give and the solutions they prescribe. If you had appendicitis, God would expect you to seek a priesthood blessing and get the best medical care available. So too with emotional disorders. Our Father in Heaven expects us to use all of the marvelous gifts He has provided in this glorious dispensation.
Edited by Eowyn
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Please read Elder Holland's message, "Like a Broken Vessel". Now there is someone who is experienced, highly educated, and is one of the Lord' s anointed.

YES. That was one of the first GC speeches I ever heard. It was so touching and beautiful. 

Even my non member friends are moved by it. I've sent it to a few of them who also suffer from depression 

Edited by MormonGator
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Because professional knowledge is typically collective. The person who overcame's knowledge is typically individual, biased, closed minded, and shallow.

 

Back 500 years or so ago, the collective knowledge of science said that the earth was flat.  That "knowledge" was based on a flawed science.  Many scientists are now on the global warming band wagon.  That, too, is based on flawed science.  Psychiatry and most counseling is based on secular knowledge that often denies the existence of God and most definitely denies the existence of the Devil, and the influence of evil spirits.  The founder of modern psychiatry, Sigmund Fraud, was obsessed with sex.  He founded the International Psychoanalytical Association.  It's first president was Carl Jung, an atheist and the secretary, Otto Rank, wrote books analyzing incest. 

 

If the foundations and laws of a "science" are promulgated by corrupt people who deny the existence of God, then anything subsequently built on that foundation is corrupt.  There may be truth in it, but that does not make it any less corrupt.  It would be similar to what was said by Abraham Lincoln. How many legs would a dog have if you called its tail a leg?  It would still be four because no matter what you called it, a tail will always remain a tail.  And no matter what you say about psychiatry, it is founded on secular principles.

 

Psychiatry has created dozens and dozens of new "illnesses" out of thin air, kinda like the Supreme Court creates "rights" out of thin air.  Those illnesses are nothing more than establishing the "authority" of the "doctor" and justifying their existence.  So-called "mental illnesses" are nothing more than illnesses of the spirit.  Joseph Smith taught that our mind is our spirit, the directing force of our body.  Since there is absolutely not one single test that can measure the amount of neurotransmitters in the body, that means that science is actually guessing as to what is wrong in the brain. 

 

What science is missing is the role of the spirit in mental illnesses.  You cannot treat the spirit by temporal means.  It can only be treated with spiritual medicine.  I'm not saying that all mental illnesses do not have a physical component.  There are cases where tests show physiological problems, but for the most part mental illnesses are spiritually based. 

 

Being enamored and trusting in secular education is a good way to mess up your eternal salvation in a confident manner.

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You might want to rethink your view on Freud.

 

Freud was not "obsessed with sex". In fact, he was obsessed with mental health and healing people. Saying he was "obsessed with sex" shows how little someone understands him. Modern psychology helps people every day. In fact, without psychological assistance, some of us would still be under the burdens of addiction, depression, repressed trauma, etc.  

 

He admonished his fellow therapists when and if they crossed the line with patients. He was incredibly loyal to his family (even forbidding suitors to date Anna, his favorite daughter, if he thought they weren't good enough) , thought that masturbation was immoral and disgusting, and that you should be faithful to your marriage-to the point of calling someone in his own family "abhorrent" when he found out they had an affair. All of his views on those issues are consistent with LDS teaching. I'll be happy to source all of that. 

it's very easy to be a fan of his and be a loyal member of the church. Sure, he was an atheist and I don't agree with him on everything, but his influence on multiple fields in unquestionable and deeply admirable. 

I have a bust of Freud in my office. Ironically, it's near my framed picture of Thomas Monson. My picture of Christ is the bigger one.

I do apologize if that came across too harsh-it's not personal and in the end we are all brothers, I mean that seriously Jojo (and of course you are free to believe what you wish, and I know I won't change your mind)-but Freud is very misunderstood. I'm sure I'm not the sole LDS who admires him. 

 

Edited by MormonGator
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I am no fan of the pseudoscience of psychology. In the main, I have great sympathy with what JojoBag wrote. Modern psychology is an embarrassment, far more of a social movement than any sort of real science. But as far as I have understood, Sigmund Freud was an honest man who tried his best to help people who most desperately needed help. If his efforts to help were not always successful or even helpful, at least he tried. So when it comes to Freud personally, I tend to agree with MormonGator.

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I am no fan of the pseudoscience of psychology. In the main, I have great sympathy with what JojoBag wrote. Modern psychology is an embarrassment, far more of a social movement than any sort of real science. But as far as I have understood, Sigmund Freud was an honest man who tried his best to help people who most desperately needed help. If his efforts to help were not always successful or even helpful, at least he tried. So when it comes to Freud personally, I tend to agree with MormonGator.

 That's a fair way of looking at it. I disagree, but it's still fair. You are always fair Vort, it's good to see. 

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Sorry jojobag. When your premise begins with the flat, unconditional statement that man-made chemicals are not the answer you lose all credibility to me. I know you love making extreme, over-the-top comments. I guess you actually believe it. Some of your premises have some decent idea within them. But in the end, the ridiculous extremity of them renders the final analysis a big thumbs down.  :thumbsdown:

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Back 500 years or so ago, the collective knowledge of science said that the earth was flat.  That "knowledge" was based on a flawed science.  

 

So what? Some flawed science does not equate to all science = flawed.

 

Many scientists are now on the global warming band wagon.  That, too, is based on flawed science.  

 

Not that I believe in global warming...but... Prove it. It's easy to just say stuff. Regardless, see previous point.

 

Psychiatry and most counseling is based on secular knowledge that often denies the existence of God and most definitely denies the existence of the Devil, and the influence of evil spirits.  The founder of modern psychiatry, Sigmund Fraud, was obsessed with sex.  He founded the International Psychoanalytical Association.  It's first president was Carl Jung, an atheist and the secretary, Otto Rank, wrote books analyzing incest. 

 

If the foundations and laws of a "science" are promulgated by corrupt people who deny the existence of God, then anything subsequently built on that foundation is corrupt.  There may be truth in it, but that does not make it any less corrupt.  It would be similar to what was said by Abraham Lincoln. How many legs would a dog have if you called its tail a leg?  It would still be four because no matter what you called it, a tail will always remain a tail.  And no matter what you say about psychiatry, it is founded on secular principles.

 

Psychiatry has created dozens and dozens of new "illnesses" out of thin air, kinda like the Supreme Court creates "rights" out of thin air.  Those illnesses are nothing more than establishing the "authority" of the "doctor" and justifying their existence.  So-called "mental illnesses" are nothing more than illnesses of the spirit.  Joseph Smith taught that our mind is our spirit, the directing force of our body.  Since there is absolutely not one single test that can measure the amount of neurotransmitters in the body, that means that science is actually guessing as to what is wrong in the brain. 

 

What science is missing is the role of the spirit in mental illnesses.  You cannot treat the spirit by temporal means.  It can only be treated with spiritual medicine.  I'm not saying that all mental illnesses do not have a physical component.  There are cases where tests show physiological problems, but for the most part mental illnesses are spiritually based. 

 

Being enamored and trusting in secular education is a good way to mess up your eternal salvation in a confident manner.

 

The rest of what you're saying here is so much garbage, and overwhelmed by logical fallacy.

 

As I said in my previous post, there's some ideas that are good within...but the bad conclusions you draw from some good ideas are....

 

...rather than refute it all point by point (it wearies my mind to consider debating such poor logic), let's review Holland instead:

 

http://lds.net/forums/topic/58616-sins-depression/?p=852181

 

I will address one statement though: "You cannot treat the spirit by temporal means." This is simply, flatly, plainly wrong. Utterly, entirely, incredibly, woefully wrong. You can too. Not only can we, but we must. It is imperative upon us to do so. (See the Holland quotes again please.) It would be insufficient to use only temporal means, yes. But your statement, as it stands, is wrong.

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So what? Some flawed science does not equate to all science = flawed.

 

 

Not that I believe in global warming...but... Prove it. It's easy to just say stuff. Regardless, see previous point.

 

 

The rest of what you're saying here is so much garbage, and overwhelmed by logical fallacy.

 

As I said in my previous post, there's some ideas that are good within...but the bad conclusions you draw from some good ideas are....

 

...rather than refute it all point by point (it wearies my mind to consider debating such poor logic), let's review Holland instead:

 

http://lds.net/forums/topic/58616-sins-depression/?p=852181

 

I will address one statement though: "You cannot treat the spirit by temporal means." This is simply, flatly, plainly wrong. Utterly, entirely, incredibly, woefully wrong. You can too. Not only can we, but we must. It is imperative upon us to do so. (See the Holland quotes again please.) It would be insufficient to use only temporal means, yes. But your statement, as it stands, is wrong.

 

You're good at making generalities, but why not back it up?  If you are so passionate about this, present your proof of the validity of psychiatry.  It is nothing more than a pseudo-science that relies on drugs to treat many imaginary diagnoses.  Psychiatry and big pharma are in bed with each other; it's all about money.  I'm sure there are some sincere doctors out there, but they are sincerely deceived.

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You're good at making generalities, but why not back it up? 

 

 

The counsel of those who represent the Lord's will to us is back up enough.

 

If you are so passionate about this, 

 

The only thing I'm passionate about is decrying ridiculous fanatical logic that both defies actual logic and wisdom and goes against the counsel we are given by the leaders of the church.

 

As to defending psychiatry as an overall practice...I'm more, "meh".

 

As I've said, you have some ideas that are reasonable mixed into all the over-the-topness of it all. There is evil in all the world. Clearly there are evil intentions in psychiatry and medicine -- also in the food industry, the auto industry, the clothing industry, etc., etc. There is evil everywhere. It's simply unreasonable to presume from that a status of absolute no-good-therein.

 

The bottom line is this: Anyone who's trying to make such a ludicrous claim that medicine doesn't help when it comes to mental and/or emotional disorders has clearly never known anyone with an extreme disorder both on and off their medicine.

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You're good at making generalities, but why not back it up?  If you are so passionate about this, present your proof of the validity of psychiatry.  It is nothing more than a pseudo-science that relies on drugs to treat many imaginary diagnoses.  Psychiatry and big pharma are in bed with each other; it's all about money.  I'm sure there are some sincere doctors out there, but they are sincerely deceived.

 

Because the person making the claim bears the burden of proof.  (That would be you in this case).  Plus he did.  Elder Holland's talk is pretty authoritative around here.  To make your point you need to even more GAs who are, in official talks, sharing your views about Big Pharma.  Not just generic talks about conspiring men where you feel in the blanks how ever you like. Because that is the theories of Men (in this case JojoBag) mingled with scripture.

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Because the person making the claim bears the burden of proof.  

 They once asked a supreme court justice to define affirmative action. His response, "You tell me. You are the one arguing for it" 

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So....I'm not sure how to word this...But i have been struggling with depression for a while now. It seemed to have just come out of no where last year. It has been really hard for me. I don't know the cause of it. I also struggled with an addiction about 4 years ago and finally overcame it last year. 

Bold by me.

 

I call B.S. on the whole thing.  

 

If she struggled with addiction for 4 years, then her parents are aware, and if not then they are either the worst parents in the world, she is a liar, or the whole thing is made up

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Bold by me.

 

I call B.S. on the whole thing.  

 

If she struggled with addiction for 4 years, then her parents are aware, and if not then they are either the worst parents in the world, she is a liar, or the whole thing is made up

 I just noticed that. Maybe it's wording, but yes, that's very young to be addicted for four years and have no one else notice. 

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 I just noticed that. Maybe it's wording, but yes, that's very young to be addicted for four years and have no one else notice. 

 

I was addicted to morphine for eleven years and my ex and kids never caught on.  My kids were surprised when I finally told them after getting clean.  If no one monitors your medicine intake and you are careful, and you are a very good liar, you can abuse it to your heart's content.  I was all three.

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