Looking for personal advice stemming from marriage woes.

[What's in a name?]

I’m struggling, and looking to the readers here for brainstorming.  I can’t see the forest as I’m in the middle, and only see tree trunks anymore.  I’m contemplating divorce.  1) I see little hope of the situation improving.  2) I’m losing my spirituality, and struggle to hold on in the face of this type of adversity. 

 

The long story:

 

I was married almost 15 years before my ex-wife left me.  Our marriage wasn’t good. But neither was it bad. She decided she didn’t want to work on it any longer, or, in other words, deal with me any longer.  Perhaps I’m somewhat blind to my part, but I do see a lot of what was my part. I wasn’t nice in dealing with my emotional issues. I’m not blind to my shortcomings.  I’m quite introspective and open/honest with myself. 

 

To be single again was a huge relief, even if it was difficult at first to re-enter the world of celibacy.  My spirituality rebounded to new post-mission highs.  Life was good being single.  But of course, I was incomplete in so many ways.  I knew I needed to remarry once my ex had our sealing canceled so she could remarry. 

 

The physical intimacy aspect of my former marriage was a major source of frustration for me, and thus one of the primary points of contention.  As much as I prayed to have my desire lowered, as much as I studied management of expectations, changing perspectives, choosing to be happy, the lack of fulfillment left me miserable. Nearly insane at times.  I’ve tried, with counseling as well as many self-help books, to alter my mental constructs surrounding the physical aspects of relationships.  I’ve tried lots.  Fasted for help.  It persisted then, and now.  In retrospect, being celibate before ever being married, and post-divorce is far easier than being in a marriage and found wanting.  At least it is for me.

 

I recognize that the primary way I feel loved is via physical touch (yes, I’ve read Chapman a couple times), but there is more to it than that.  I’ve made huge strides in overcoming very-difficult-to-me challenges to feeling loved, and reframing my mental constructs.  For instance, rejection by others, including those within my household, while still not something I look forward to, is not as big of a deal as it used to be.  It used to really get to me.  But, in choosing my reactions, reframing what had always been a sensitive issue to me since before I can remember, and working with life experiences, I can handle rejection by pretty much anyone, even a spouse, and still show them love and affection, as I know they are just lashing out from their own hurt, and it really has less to do with me than it does with them.    

 

However, changes in relation to dependency on intimacy have not come in a similar manner as overcoming other sensitive spots I’ve been given trials related to.  Yes, it’s how I feel loved, but it is so much more critical than that. I can get along without overt demonstration of love.  Not so much without intimacy when I’m reminded of it daily in the bed next to me.

 

After the divorce, thinking I understood how critical physical compatibility was to my functioning in marriage, that was a key component in selecting a new spouse.  I wasn’t shy about having open conversations to determine compatibility after a few dates and the potential of becoming serious.  I did remarry, to someone that I had all confidence was compatible in this aspect, along with many others. 

 

Now, five years into the marriage, whether it is due to perimenopause, the stresses of unusually difficult circumstances forced upon us, both, or some other factor (i.e. dishonesty about libido prior to marriage), I’m right back where I was in the first marriage. Absolutely miserable. Struggling mightily to not only feel loved, but to function from day to day without going insane, and worse.   Struggling to hold onto the iron rod, angry at Heavenly Father that answers to prayers led me into this relationship.

 

When calm, I have compassion for my wife, recognizing the circumstances that may have induced her to exaggerate her desire, and don’t see her as intentionally deceiving, except out of her weakness.   But I hurt so much at times, I can’t help but feel extreme disappointment and feeling duped into entering into a condition I knew would be intolerable to me.  And I’m starting to crack. Hence the consideration of divorce.   When I was single, I promised myself that if I ever reached this point again, being tempted this strongly, I would most certainly divorce. But for some reason, I’m reluctant.  I guess I want to do right, even if it is an emotional handcart I have to pull, that I wish would pass from me.  I just wonder if I can hold myself together and arrive at any destination without giving up.  Nearly 20 years of this misery across two marriages is taking a toll on me.

 

I’ve pondered and prayed to understand why I find myself in this situation.  Not a “why me!”, but “what is the purpose of why I find myself in this situation again?”  What is it that I am supposed to learn?  And perhaps that is where I need help to see the forest I’m in from an external standpoint.  I wonder if I’m supposed to learn to completely let go of my desire and reliance on the physical to feel loved.  Then I recall how much I’ve pleaded for help to reduce what is either a biological drive, or divinely created desire.  I recall how I’ve been willing to sacrifice anything, include the possibility of any intimacy ever again, yet have no relief.  I’m left to conclude Heavenly Father wants me to remain in this difficulty for the time being, but why?

 

I’ve asked many times what it is I am to learn from this, what opportunities for growth I’m being given.  No answers, no guidance.  Am I here because of stupid choices of my own?  Perhaps in part, but I would not have married without unmistakable answers to prayers leading me to where I am.  Am I to learn to give up intimacy while having it next to me daily, because I’m willing to be celibate when single, and this is just the next step?  Did I make a “mistake” in praying for charity while single, and this is the path to breaking my heart enough to be able to rebuild it from scratch, more capable of loving despite what may be done to me, or how deprived of needs I feel? 

 

What other potential lessons am I supposed to learn, or characteristics am I to develop from the circumstances I’ve been given?  What else can I take to Heavenly Father in asking “is this what I’m supposed to learn”? What think ye?

 

And no, I’m not contemplating divorce over physical intimacy alone.  It turns out that all those discussions about compatibility in finances, kids, intimacy, emotional support . . . they all were not founded in reality.  Perhaps I could deal with the intimacy if I had an emotional confidant and supporter that didn’t criticize and attack me when I try to express my hurts and disappointments (even when approached in the best way I know how, with love and concern for both of us).  Perhaps I wouldn’t care about emotional support or uncontrolled spending if physical intimacy continued as was ‘promised’.  It really is a matter of the big picture causing contemplation of divorce. However, none of the non-physical factors drive me physically and mentally crazy, and subject me to remotely similar temptations as the lack of intimacy. 

 

Life is a pretty sour deal when it doesn’t give you enough sugar and water with the lemons to make decent lemonade.           

[mrmarklin]

Not really enough info to give you any kind of decent advice. We're only seeing your side, and you have omitted mention of any children except very obliquely.

Have tried marital counseling? I'd check it out.

[The Folk Prophet]

I probably shouldn't even post this since I'm not actually going to give an opinion, but it'll leave it to your imagination, and maybe the consideration will be helpful. That being said:

 

You do not want my opinion on this. You won't like it at all.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Sorry but I'm going to agree with the others. I have a lot of questions that wouldn't be appropriate to ask you, and I would be interested to hear your wife's side of the story.

I suspect though that even with that information, I would still tell you this isn't something worth getting divorced over. I'm not denying that this is difficult. But why do we assume our lives should be easy when the scriptures clearly tell us otherwise. Unfortunately sometimes our marriages are our refiners fire.

As Elder Holland said if the bitter cup does not pass . . . (Look it up in his Broken Vessel talk.)

[Backroads]

I don't think it unreasonable to assume lessons can very well come out of this. We can learn from everything, after all. Are you praying for a lesson to be learned? Are you putting the need for a big lesson over the sanctity of marriage?

I still can't gather enough from your post to tackle all the problems. You're unhappy in both marriages and perhaps you drew a raw deal with both wives.

I'm going to second counseling, at least for you.

Also, what are you doing for your wife?

Edited January 12, 2016 by Backroads

[What's in a name?]

Thanks for taking the time to read that long post, and give it some consideration.  

 

Has anyone here tried having a marriage with a borderline-personality individual?  The diagnosis is not official, but more aspects fit to a T than do not.  Walk a mile in my shoes, please, and then you are free to assume I'm taking the easy-out.  I'm desperately attempting to hang on what is truly a very difficult situation. Far more difficult than can be conveyed, and something I intentionally avoided in my post. I am well aware the only person I can change is me, and I have no expectations to change in my wife what are unquestionably marriage-killing behaviors. But focusing on her bad behaviors will do nothing, and never improves a relationship. I can't change her, you can't change her, and I don't believe you will likely be able to tell me something I haven't read a couple times in one of the many marriage and self-help books, or heard from counselors before as it relates to marital advice.  All I can do is focus on how I can become more charitable, less needy of love, validation, or support, or whatever unknown-to-me-yet lesson it is that HF wants me to glean from this situation.  Focusing on the faults of a spouse never improves ones mood or situation. So I attempted to avoid that, and focus on my own personal struggles with the situations. 

 

The last therapist I worked with flat out asked me: "how long are  you going to put up with this abuse?".  I stopped seeing him as I did not want to have thoughts of giving up introduced further.  Martial counseling has been attempted twice.  Abysmal failures.  I'm the first and strongest advocate of professional help.  I turned now to lds.net for advanced help, not facile suggestions of rudimentary first steps.  I guess I was wrong in thinking I conveyed that need in the OP, but clearly fell short of that goal.  

 

I don't mean to sound conceited in any way, as that is not reflective of my attitude, but I've been around the block a few times.  I'm not inexperienced.  I'm not a bad spouse.  No abuse, no cheating, very giving, supportive and accepting, very loving.  At times I was not so in my first marriage, for a multitude of reasons, none of which are justification, they simply constituted many of the things I had yet to overcome, or coping mechanisms I had not yet identified as such (primarily anger as a defensive mechanism to avoid emotional hurts).  Perhaps I was a bit too honest and open in my OP that I'm a flawed person as well, causing judgement, and I should have put on a false persona of 'i'm the perfect husband' to get more appropriate responses?  Or I wasn't to the point enough about what I was seeking?  

 

Oh how I wish my marital challenges were as simple as most of what I read on here, and have seen on here for almost a decade of reading lds.net now. Please accept that I don't want to focus on what my spouse does wrong, even if I did try to touch upon it a little to give background regarding my struggles.  Please accept this is truly a difficult situation.  I'm not prone to hyperbole. 

 

The presence of children has no bearing on the question at hand.  There is no expectation that life should be easy - rather I'm embracing what is far more difficult circumstances than can be conveyed, and asking "what is it Lord that you want me to learn from this".  

 

I'll rephrase what perhaps I should have put in an introductory paragraph:

I'm finding myself in a rather difficult set of circumstances in my second marriage.  I have overcome many of my greatest weaknesses though the trials I have been blessed with.  I now can tolerate extreme criticism, personal attacks, and yelling, and often not respond in any manner other than loving acceptance, knowing my spouse is misbehaving because she is hurting inside.  I can now tolerate rejection from spouse, step children, and others in ways that I never thought any individual could.  And more.  But try as I might, no amount of self-improvement focus has removed a significant thorn in my side born of a difficult marriage. And that thorn has to do with lack of physical affection.  I'm desperately torn between a divinely created desire (my first question for HF will be why it had to be this strong), and my sensitive personality to consider my wife's desires ahead of my own.  I have tried to seek out what it is I am to learn from this trial, even if I am to never overcome it.  I'm drawing blanks.  I cannot gain adequate perspective, and to date, my prayers have not been answered regarding what I am to learn or how I am to grow.  Can you please help me brainstorm what deep lessons I might need to take before the Lord and ask if that is what I am to learn?  I'm at a loss right now, and need help thinking outside the box.  I know there is someone out there that has true empathy for the situation borne of experience, that could offer useful advice, or someone that is divinely inspired to pass an answer along to me.  

 

I alluded to my spouses assurance to me pre-marriage when she said "I'm more like a man in that regard" as it sets the stage for the challenge I face.  I knew I did not do well in a marriage with disparate desires. Tried that for almost 15 years, and that aspect was miserable.  I knew of Spencer W. Kimball's quote that while many reasons are given for divorce, the most common core reason underlying it all is 'they did not get along sexually'.  I was very careful to try to avoid a similar circumstance the second time around, and give us the best shot at a successful relationship.  Plain and simple, I was deceived.  I was lied to. Not out of a desire to be dishonest, but as I tried to convey in the OP, it was out of weakness, and desperation to be accepted. As I said, I have a lot of compassion, even empathy for what drove her to lie, and cannot condemn her for it, even though it hurts badly. It was not long into the marriage (two months?) that I could clearly see that the desire verbally expressed pre-marriage, and the desire post-marriage was strongly founded in seeking acceptance, and to be desired. It was not an innate desire for physical intimacy as I was assured it was. And now that acceptance has been achieved, there is virtually no desire at all.   So, again, I find myself in a place where I am continually "starving", and try as I might, unable to find relief in any fashion.   I would be glad to live a life of celibacy again, but that is not practical when continuing to be married and continuing to have physical touch or other daily stimulating reminders.  Been there done that, and being single and completely celibate and chaste is far easier, at least for me.  

 

Geesh.  I gotta find a way to be more concise. Sorry, but I'll post it anyway, as it helps me flesh out some of my thoughts, and perhaps will provide the insight that I know someone experienced or inspired can provide.  

[MrShorty]

I don't really have any answers (if I did, I wouldn't be in the same boat).

 

One of the things that stands out to me in your post is this:

The physical intimacy aspect of my former marriage was a major source of frustration for me,... the lack of fulfillment left me miserable. Nearly insane at times.

 

Struggling mightily to not only feel loved, but to function from day to day without going insane, and worse.   Struggling to hold onto the iron rod, angry at Heavenly Father that answers to prayers led me into this relationship.

 

As much as I like Dr. Chapman's philosophy, these statements lead me into Dr. Schnarch's philosophies. What is it about your "reflected sense of self" as seen in your married sexual relationship that causes you such deep pain and suffering (emotional fusion) that you cannot function normally? I know that this was one of the things I needed to learn, too -- how to maintain emotional equilibrium in a sexless marriage. I (an engineer and mathematician, so I have no marriage or sex therapy credentials at all) might suggest that the best thing you could learn from this is how to maintain your emotional equilibrium in the face of your sexual struggles. I don't know that it is easy, and it sounds like you have tried, but that's the best I think I have got.

[omegaseamaster75]

You and your wife need to see a MFT, a good one.

 

Now for the internet commando response: I'm giving you a 50% discount on everything you said, because I don't know you and you have only presented your tale of misery in a way that casts you to be the victim. If your spouse were here I am sure that we would hear a totally opposite story.

 

Quit being selfish.

[estradling75]

I will tell you the same thing I have told others.  Remember that your covenants are between you and the Lord.  Not you and your spouse.  So before you seriously think about taking any action that might break those covenants, be on you knees in prayer to him. 

 

Don't take such an action until he tells you that your sacrifice is acceptable and he no more requires it of you.  And if you don't get such an answer ask what more he wants you to do.  Then do it.

[The Folk Prophet]

You and your wife need to see a MFT, a good one.

 

Now for the internet commando response: I'm giving you a 50% discount on everything you said, because I don't know you and you have only presented your tale of misery in a way that casts you to be the victim. If your spouse were here I am sure that we would hear a totally opposite story.

 

Quit being selfish.

 

Kinder, I think, than what I would have said. I think I'm struggling with the 50% discount on what was said part. :)

[NeedleinA]

 2) I’m losing my spirituality, and struggle to hold on in the face of this type of adversity. 

 

This is 100% your choice. Heavy adversity is a great way to see and prove to yourself what you are really made of. 

One person in your exact shoes sees this as the most spiritual time in their life. They have never prayed so sincere in their life and felt so guided as they do now. The other person decides to crumble. 

 

It is a choice. 

[beefche]

Let me see if I can break it down to simple terms. Your greatest fear in marriage is happening. And it was a fear for a real reason--you are hurting, afraid, angry, betrayed, and even confused. You felt that you took all the precautions you could prior to marriage to prevent this from happening, but despite your efforts and confirmation from the Spirit, it still happened.

 

I noticed that you aren't asking what to do regarding your marriage. You are asking what to do on your end--what to learn? how to cope? what to pray for?

 

I have learned that marriage is more difficult that I ever expected. If my assessment of your situation is correct, then I am living that same thing. My greatest fear in marriage has happened and despite my precautions and spiritual confirmation, it still happened. I can't change my spouse. I can only look to myself. 

 

I prayed for patience. I prayed for increased love. I prayed for charity (which is more than just love). I prayed to know what I could do to influence my spouse. I prayed to know how to live today with faith. I prayed to know how to continue with a marriage that is so far from what I wanted and from what God wants. I prayed to know that by choosing to stay in this marriage that I was doing God's will. 

 

I try to focus on the good of my spouse. I try to praise that good. I discuss issues with him but I pray before and even after sometimes to know what to say and how to say it. I try to remember that he is a son of God and no matter how angry I am, how hurt I am, his choices hurt God more than me and yet He still loves him. I try to suppress the feelings I have when I want my spouse to make choices other than what he is making. 

 

Sometimes, I have to rely on the answer I got when I prayed about my marriage. I received 2 very distinct answers to my prayers about my marriage. There are times when I'm in the midst of my pain and anger that I remember those answers and tell myself to endure. I know that I can't prevent the choices my husband makes and someday those choices may result in the dissolution of our marriage. But, I refuse to focus on those "what ifs." 

 

I'm sorry this is happening to you. I'm sorry that such a great disappoint has happened despite your efforts to prevent it. One thing I can say is do not, DO NOT, let them influence you to choose to leave your faith behind. While you may not be at your spiritual high, abandoning your faith altogether WILL result in more sorrow and misery. Sometimes, we have to wade through the mud and muck before we get to higher ground. And it can get very muddy and mucky before we can even tell that there is higher ground. That is when faith is needed. Keep the faith.

Edited January 12, 2016 by beefche

[Vort]

You have my sincere sympathy. Many women utterly fail to understand the importance of sex and intimacy to a man. I have no other suggestion beyond seeing if a marriage counselor might help. I realize that's pretty weak sauce.

 

Your anger at God is certainly misplaced. I think your anger at your wife is perhaps misplaced as well, and in any case it isn't helpful. She is probably not trying to hurt you, just too wrapped up in her own issues. I suspect that unselfish love is key to healing this relationship, but I can't really preach to you how to go about that.

 

If I were in your position, I would start by talking with my bishop or stake president, or perhaps group leader/quorum president, and see what they have to say. Best of luck to you.

[Guest]

I, like Vort, offer my sincere sympathy.  I understand the pain one goes through when physical intimacy is broken in a marriage.  And like others, I believe the best way to deal with this is to go with the professionals - an LDS one would be best but any reputable professional would be good.

 

As far as the lesson... here's my opinion.

 

You need to learn the lesson of what LOVE means.  You failed to learn this lesson in your first marriage.  Not learning this lesson is compounding your problems with your 2nd marriage.

 

Contrary to popular opinion, Love is not dependent on what you receive.  Love is completely what you are willing to freely give.

 

The perfect example of Love is Christ.  Christ did not say... love only those who love you back.  Or love only those who meet your expectations.  Or love only when things are bearable.  No.  Love others as you love yourself.  Period.  No conditions.

 

So, it is obvious from Christ's teaching that Love is something you give... no conditions. You then need to learn what Love really means.  Ideally, you learn what it is before you get married so that you can choose to marry the person you love.

 

But for you, it's too late now.  You married somebody you thought you loved and it didn't work out so then you married somebody you thought you loved and you're in the same boat because you still haven't learned the lesson.

 

When you chose the person to marry, it shouldn't have been... I'm going to carefully plan that I'm going to receive everything I wanted... and that's the end of it.  The MOST IMPORTANT thing about choosing the person to marry is not what you get... but what you are willing to give without any regard to what you would receive.  When you find the woman that you are happy to serve with all that you got without ANY THOUGHT to what you'll get in return... that's when you have found LOVE.

 

Then your happiness is not dependent on whether she turns out to be the greatest gal on the universe.  Rather, your happiness is COMPLETELY dependent on what you have done for her.  Anything amazing and awesome that you receive from her is simply extra blessings to the wonderful blessing of having taken part in Christ's love for this special person you chose to marry.

 

But, it's not too late yet.  There is something special about this woman because you decided to marry her.  That decision is, at least, already made.  Now all you need to do is learn to LOVE this woman according to Christ's Love...

 

GO!  I promise you, your life will be infinitely better.

Edited January 12, 2016 by anatess

[Guest]

 

 

I turned now to lds.net for advanced help, not facile suggestions of rudimentary first steps.

 

We're as random and varied a group of people as any forum on the internet, so I don't know why you would be irked to not get the level of help you're expecting. We're not professionals and everyone has their opinion. And my opinion is that that statement was rude.

[What's in a name?]

We're as random and varied a group of people as any forum on the internet, so I don't know why you would be irked to not get the level of help you're expecting. We're not professionals and everyone has their opinion. And my opinion is that that statement was rude.

I've been having a pretty bad week. Forgive me for my shortness. It certainly wasn't intended, but it was there. That post does not show up for me.  Is it not being approved for one reason or another?  Your quote seems a bit out of place without it showing up in the thread.  

[NeuroTypical]

Hi there,  I'm blunt.  

 

You've married two women now who don't want to have sex with you.  Do you know why?

 

Kind of two parts to my question.  

- Why did you pick them to marry?  

- Why don't they want to have sex with you?

 

Both are important questions to answer.  Because if you don't know, or are in denial or something, then any third try at marriage is just an exercise in landing in the same place yet again.  

[David13]

It has been said right there.  Unconditional unselfish love and acceptance is the key.

Acceptance means you accept what you have in a marriage.

Now, this is the internet where there are adages and idioms and old wives tales.  Some of the old wives tales are ... true!  Believe it or not.  But sometimes we don't realize it was true until later in life.

When people are young and get married, sex can be the most important thing in the marriage or relationship.

As those same people get older, the come to a point where sex is the least important thing in a marriage.

Now, as to the young ones, a marriage based on sex and nothing else won't last.  There has to be a whole lot more to it, to the point that, if a young couple gets married, sex SHOULD BE a very unimportant part other than to have children.

And I do not think that means they have to have a lot of common interests or they both like the same colors or something.

They can be very different, after all one is male and one is female.  Which is very different.  But what is the same is that they both have a very well developed sense of acceptance to the differences.

The differences and how they react to them will be the most important part.    The similarities will be of little import.

So it come back to ... love and acceptance (of all of it) is the key.

dc

Edited January 12, 2016 by David13

[What's in a name?]

these statements lead me into Dr. Schnarch's philosophies. What is it about your "reflected sense of self" as seen in your married sexual relationship that causes you such deep pain and suffering (emotional fusion) that you cannot function normally? 

MrShorty.  It has been about 6 or so years since I read Schnarch’s books. I hope they haven’t been thrown away on me.  A refresh is a good idea.  Thank you.  

 

I will tell you the same thing I have told others.  Remember that your covenants are between you and the Lord.  Not you and your spouse.  So before you seriously think about taking any action that might break those covenants, be on you knees in prayer to him. 

 

Don't take such an action until he tells you that your sacrifice is acceptable and he no more requires it of you.  And if you don't get such an answer ask what more he wants you to do.  Then do it.

 

Thank you Estradling for the thoughts.  I would never move forward with divorce without confirmation first.  Doesn’t mean it doesn’t cross my mind at times though!  Your thoughts are things I have contemplated much, and welcome reminders as I find myself looking at ‘tree trunks rather than the entire forest’.

 

 

Let me see if I can break it down to simple terms. Your greatest fear in marriage is happening. And it was a fear for a real reason--you are hurting, afraid, angry, betrayed, and even confused. You felt that you took all the precautions you could prior to marriage to prevent this from happening, but despite your efforts and confirmation from the Spirit, it still happened.

 

I noticed that you aren't asking what to do regarding your marriage. You are asking what to do on your end--what to learn? how to cope? what to pray for?

Beefche, it sounds like you are in a pretty difficult spot as well. My heart truly goes out to you.  The empathy expressed says a lot about the depth of the challenges you face.  While it warms my soul to feel understood via cryptic internet messages, it saddens me as well to contemplate others know similar uncertainty and pain.

 

From time to time I too have leaned on and remembered the answers to prayer I received when making choices related to entering this relationship.  However . . . I did the same with my former marriage.  I did receive answers, and it didn’t work out despite giving what were truly my best efforts.  I no longer presume I can understand the big picture, just because Heavenly Father allowed me a blessing to see the next step at a former point it time.  I have found it all too easy in my life, because of the infrequency of clear guidance I receive, and my desperation at times to have guidance, to infer far more than might have been intended in relation to past answers.  His ways are not our ways, and it is foolish to use our logic to deduce understanding.  Hence my greater focus now on guidance for right this moment.  But alas, nothing I can hear.

 

Sometimes, I have to simply focus keenly on being so good, that when it does fall apart, you are confident they will look back with fondness how you treated them, despite the circumstances.

 

All these things shall give thee experience and be for thy good. Hard to remember at the moment, but hearing of another’s issues brings me around to proper perspective. Thanks.

 

You need to learn the lesson of what LOVE means.  You failed to learn this lesson in your first marriage.  Not learning this lesson is compounding your problems with your 2nd marriage.

 

Anatess . . . thank you for a great post. 

 

Sure, when I reentered the world of dating, I was looking for reciprocal advantages. Naturally so, since we are made incomplete alone.  But it was definitely not in order to “complete” me, or fill in anything that I needed, aside from D&C 131.  Perhaps that sounds more callous than intended. What I’m trying to say is that I did not marry looking for love to fill any other emotional or physical need.  I thought then, and still think in retrospect, that I was pursuing a relationship for all the right reasons, and reasonably whole and well in doing so (I have no delusions of grandeur by any means – still flawed, but pretty reasonably well – ok enough to be on my own long-term).  I was not marrying my current wife for what she could give me. My focus on intimacy compatibility was to attempt to avoid what I found to be a source of conflict previously, not to fill a need.  I read, believe, and understood firsthand the following: “if you study the divorces, as we have had to do in these past years, you will find there are one, two, three, four reasons. Generally sex is the first. They did not get along sexually. They may not say that in court. They may not even tell that to their attorneys, but that is the reason.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, p. 312.)   My focus was in avoiding that particular mistake a second time. 

 

And I guess that’s where I find myself frustrated with Heavenly Father. Mad even sometimes.  Not that I don’t trust, but because I don’t understand.  This is precisely what I so desperately wanted to avoid! And was so careful to avoid.  I wasn’t looking to be fulfilled!  Just to avoid that which degrades relationships.  There is no right amount, no wrong amount.  What matters is compatibility. 

 

I trust fully, unquestionably, that my capabilities, challenges, everything is designed for my best good in learning in this life.  He matched my spirit with this body, that has a biological/divinely created drive that is undeniable when in the presence of a spouse.  He can change that. In an instant.  But He has chosen not to, despite my pleadings. And, relying on His guidance in relationship choice, I find myself in a relationship that hits upon my core sensitivities (as to be expected).  I’ve made great strides on many, but this one eludes me. And I can’t see what I have to learn other than to bear what is, at times, nearly intolerable!  I don’t want to be setting off warning buzzers in anyone’s mind, as I’m perfectly well and safe, but I can imagine some pretty horrific and life ending events I’d rather be going through than the torment I face from time to time.  I’ve been shot by a gun before, had broken bones, lost my mother, etc.  I’d gladly choose anything I’ve experienced instead of this.  I simply don’t understand why.  I’m like a 2 year old incapable of comprehending why they can’t have icecream for dinner, and having a bit of a melt-down because of it.  I know all trials will be for my good, but I hurt so much, and have so little vision regarding this situation, I can’t find peace. Hence now my expanded search to brainstorm what I'm yet lacking. 

 

I am not perfect in showing love.  But I am failing to grasp how that is an answer to dealing with intense ambivalence I face.  In fact, my love and consideration of my spouse is part of the problem!  I most certainly don't demand intimacy. Far from it! No cajoling or demands. Absolute consideration of her first.  Yet, I am driven to seek it. I won't seek my own interests first, as I know it is not wanted on the other side.  I'm to darn considerate of other's desires at times!  Honestly, I think that if I were less loving and trying to consider her wants, I probably would be a bit more forceful, and not be so torn apart inside.  Yes, I have contemplated that much, and prayed about it, wondering if that is the core of the problem.  I'm lost.  I don't see how more real and charitable love will dissipate the anguish. 

 

I have sacrificed so much Anatess in trying to be loving and fulfilling to everyone around me, even when I am not only receiving no inputs myself, but am under attack and rejection as well. It’s taken a toll, and from time to time, I have to take a breather as I’m just not capable. I took up running about a year ago.  I don’t get upset with myself at having to stop and walk from time to time. And some days are worse than others.  Learning to love and give under duress is a lot like that to me as capabilities build.  Building that endurance takes time, pushing oneself, and from time to time, you just don’t have it in you to push, and you back off for a bit and walk. I try not to get upset about it, but just do the best I can, and start running when I can.  Yes, I've had a bit of a meltdown from a particularly bad spell.  Please, if you have experience in sustaining that unrequited love long-term, and have learned the secret lessons I need to learn, please share how to do it.  I’m at a loss, and that’s why I reached the point of desperation to reach out here.  

[What's in a name?]

You have my sincere sympathy. Many women utterly fail to understand the importance of sex and intimacy to a man. I have no other suggestion beyond seeing if a marriage counselor might help. I realize that's pretty weak sauce.

 

Your anger at God is certainly misplaced. I think your anger at your wife is perhaps misplaced as well, and in any case it isn't helpful. She is probably not trying to hurt you, just too wrapped up in her own issues. I suspect that unselfish love is key to healing this relationship, but I can't really preach to you how to go about that.

 

If I were in your position, I would start by talking with my bishop or stake president, or perhaps group leader/quorum president, and see what they have to say. Best of luck to you.

Weak sauce or not, your thoughts are appreciated Vort.  

 

 

Hi there,  I'm blunt.  

 

You've married two women now who don't want to have sex with you.  Do you know why?

 

Kind of two parts to my question.  

- Why did you pick them to marry?  

- Why don't they want to have sex with you?

 

Both are important questions to answer.  Because if you don't know, or are in denial or something, then any third try at marriage is just an exercise in landing in the same place yet again.  

 

Hi blunt!  How are you? I’m long-winded and rambling.  Sorry about that.  Well, generally so.  The answer to those questions would take way more than even I’m willing to type out.  

 

First, I concluded it was right as we got along so well, had similar spiritual and family goals, etc. All the typical college sweethearts stuff.  Not for her looks, although I was attracted to her, not for money, fame, intimacy, or anything in particular. We were friends, dated, and it fit.  And Heavenly Father said it was right.  Kinda hard for me to rationalize in post-mortem analysis of flawed motivations when HF affirmed the choice to me.

 

Second, I wish it were possible to convey what it is like to court someone that expresses symptoms of having BPD.  It’s readily described on the net, so I won’t try.  As I said to Anatess, I wasn’t looking for any problem to be solved. Just an innate desire to be wed on two people’s part, seeing great signs of compatibility in ALL areas of life, and, as Holland says, holding hands and jumping in with both feet hoping for the best.  Having a second chance to make right, I sought out all the advice and wisdom I could, from books, family, friends, bishop, etc.   I have no delusions that I was perfect and whole.  But I know I was a whole lot better of a person from my refiner’s fire than I had ever been in life.  I’ve asked myself many times if my motivations and desires were flawed, or I missed warning signs.  I have a hard time concluding I should have been more skeptical and not trusted so much.  Honestly, I didn’t have the life experience to see the deception, let alone even begin to comprehend it.  But analyzing that further doesn’t really do much to change the here and now, does it?  

 

Of course I’ve thought of the second question many times over.  Pondered it much.  Bluntly asked it with a real intent to understand.  I get I was, at times, quite difficult in the first marriage.  I’m sensing people are not used to my level of being forthright about my flaws though, and are likely to over-judge that.  It is what it is. I’m generally glad to take my part, own up to it as best I can, and try not be critical of the other side.  No abuse. No cheating. No porn.  Squeaky clean faithfulness.  As attentive and loving as I knew how to be, or was capable of.  Bringing flowers, courting, trying to resolve differences, very respectfully and considerate.  But a jerk when emotionally hurt.  And withdrawn when attacked.  We had the discussions about why.  There was talk of the need for filling her emotional needs first, etc, etc, etc. And I’d do that in all sincerity.  And almost nothing in return or consideration of my emotional desires.  She’s a good person. I don’t want to cast her in a bad light. But not everyone wants physical intimacy.  And some people have grown up with guilt and shame that clouds their perspective long after intimacy is right and good. 

 

I’m well aware of the adage that good relations begins in the kitchen (or laundry room, etc).  There is some truth to that of course.  But there is no way to slice cheese so thin that it doesn’t have two sides.  Happy wife, happy life is a sexist fallacy.  In reality, it should be: happy spouse, happy house.  BOTH spouses need to look out for, and go out of their way to meet the emotional needs of the other.   I’m no stellar romantic that does great at courting.  But when you have an honest discussion with your wife about why she doesn’t want to be intimate, and you come up with a plan together to address her emotional needs, and you follow that plan for months without reciprocation. . . well, I simply wasn’t that strong or great back then.  Not sure I am now either, but I’m much further along than before. 

 

With the second, I have asked repeatedly.  At first it was nothing that I had done, and there was no explanation why.  Over time, hormones were suspected, but tests indicate no issues.  Hormones are certainly a part, but they are not clinically out of whack despite the physical changes indicating something has changed.  As I’ve tried to discuss (at times, failing miserably and inquiring out of bitterness and hurt, and at times in all sincere loving, looking for mutual solutions) it further over time, it has not gone well.  It’s because of that time I did x two years ago, I was an a this other time, you failed to give me what I wanted there, and a whole litany of all the ways I’m a flawed human that no one would ever want to be in bed with.  I don’t ask any longer, as it has not gone well for a long time, no matter how kindly I approach the subject.   I understand why she does this.  It’s defensiveness to ward off feelings of inadequacy.  Still, it’s not anything I dare venture into any longer. 

 

I have a thousand more thoughts, but I’m sure I’ve written too much already.  

[Guest]

I've read and re-read your posts.  Please understand that when asked about things like this I first try to weed out any emotional or touchy-feely issues.  What are the facts?

 

As I tell everyone when contemplating divorce, my personal criteria (since you're asking for advice) are: Adultery, Addiction, Abuse, or a serious felony.  It doesn't look like she's guilty of any of them.  You may think she's emotionally, or mentally abusing you.  But I'd warn you to be sparing in making such a claim.  It is a very difficult standard to draw a logical, objective, red line around.

 

That said, I've really seen miracles happen in marriages that seem "loveless" when just one side decides to go the extra mile as far as service, selflessness, and compassion.  It may take years.  But I've seen it happen too many times to discount.

 

Regarding intimacy:  While it is an important part of marriage, you need to understand that this is not the bottom line of being married.  What if she were in an accident and she was no longer able to participate?  Would you dump her?  Of course not.  So, one piece of advice would be to work on lowering your libido.  And talk to your bishop about related issues.  As strong as many people's libido may be, it is not normal (and I may be persuaded to say sinful) for a man to be so motivated that to be deprived "drives one insane".

[Guest]

Please, if you have experience in sustaining that unrequited love long-term, and have learned the secret lessons I need to learn, please share how to do it.

I have tons. I grew up Catholic (divorce is a sin) in the Philippines (divorce is illegal). The Filipino Family culture is forged on the ideals of Christian Love - the love Jesus displayed on the cross that compelled him to plead with God to forgive them as they crucified him.

Unrequited Love has no meaning in this paradigm because the requital is the pleasure derived from one's ability to act. The power that drives that ability is one's love for God. The opportunity to execute God's love for one's spouse while giving her the freedom to exercise her own agency is therefore, the source of one's joy.

So, saying, I did this for her, I did that for her... That should have been your source of joy. Instead, your source of joy is the requital that you expected that didn't come... So you're unhappy. You don't love her the way Christ loves her.

Love is one's desire, with all of one's being, to bring someone closer to Christ. The ultimate expression for which is sex under the marital covenant. When she has no desire to engage in that expression, being disappointed because you didn't get to express your love for her in that manner is an appropriate "spiritual man's" response. Being disappointed because you didn't receive pleasure is a "natural man's" response. To sustain your love to endure, you need to concentrate more on the spiritual man... There are many other ways to express your love for your spouse other than sex. Finding joy in all these other expressions of love (bringing your spouse closer to Christ) is the key to your happiness in your marriage while you work out the problem with sex.

Last Christmas, did it make you happy to give someone a gift? Giving your spouse the freedom to be who she is, taking the journey through the strait and narrow path in her own pace - even taking many steps backwards before finding the step forward - and still be loved completely by her spouse is a gift beyond measure. For you to be able to give that gift to your wife will give you happiness beyond any Christmas gift you've ever given. So the next time you look at her face, find joy in that moment knowing that on the next second, you're about to do something that will bring a sparkle to those eyes... start with a smile. Find joy in every little thing you do that displays Christ's love for her... Forget what she does or doesn't do.

Edited January 13, 2016 by anatess

[Guest]

"Deprived" is such a subjective word, anyway. I know a guy that thinks he's deprived with less than daily. 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Eowyn

[Sunday21]

I suspect that this is not the route you want to take and I know that libido is not the only problem in your marriage but...you can pray and ask to have your libido lowered. I know that you feel that you are entitled to more sex but...there are many lives in which regular sex is not an option. Even I would say most people have long periods of adult life in which regular sex is not an option. Most young moms that I know are juggling a full time job, household chores, and children's needs. Older people have health problems. Start looking at the faces at church. I remember a quote from a bishop who said that he came away from his counselling duties grateful for his own problems relative to other people's problems. Look around the pews, I bet you see a lot of people who are involuntarily celibate. I know you feel entitled to sex but maybe this is not the plan for you.

[The Folk Prophet]

"Deprived" is such an objective word, anyway. I know a guy that thinks he's deprived with less than daily.

Um...