Looking for personal advice stemming from marriage woes.

[Guest]

I know, I used the wrong word. I'm not a morning person, and of course when I realized it, my internet went down, and I just knew someone would take me to task.

[The Folk Prophet]

I know, I used the wrong word. I'm not a morning person, and of course when I realized it, my internet went down, and I just knew someone would take me to task.

?

I'm not sure if this is a response to me. My "um..." Was meant to imply - I resemble that remark.

 

(edit: as a joke...that is...sort of....)

Edited January 13, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

Feelings aren't fact. :)

 

I know most guys would jokingly say that that's true of them, but I think most guys know that they're not entitled to that, and wouldn't pout and cajole and fight because they're suffering ever so much, and wife needs to know it. Insisting to the point of creating contention over it, at that level, I think is as bad as actually depriving a spouse of that affection.

[The Folk Prophet]

but I think most guys know that they're not entitled to that, 

 

I think this is false.

 

and wouldn't pout and cajole and fight because they're suffering ever so much, and wife needs to know it.

 

That just depends on their personality and maturity.

[Sunday21]

This discussion reminds me of a clip from an old Woody Allen film. Diane Keaton and Woody play characters who are dating. Diane is asked, how often do you have sex and she responds , oh all the time. Twice a week. Woody is asked the same question and responds, never. Twice a week.

[Guest]

Most guys believe they're entitled to what they want daily? I like to think better of most of my brothers.

 

I will tell you that a whiny, entitled guy is kind of shooting himself in the foot with that sort of behavior. 

[The Folk Prophet]

Most guys believe they're entitled to what they want daily? 

 

Your usage of the word "want" here basically tells me that you (unsurprisingly...as no woman really can) do not understand the male libido/sex drive. It's not a "need". But it also is not equivelent to "want"...like missing your favorite tv show or something. It is a literal strong biological drive. In some (particularly younger men) it is exceedingly strong.

 

I like to think better of most of my brothers.

 

Why should lawfully married men be shamed for feeling they have some level of entitlement to at least some sexual relations with their spouses? (And that goes for women too). Heaven forbid we expect sex from our wives! How dare we?!?

 

I will tell you that a whiny, entitled guy is kind of shooting himself in the foot with that sort of behavior. 

 

This is certainly true. But it doesn't change the reality of whether men become like this when "deprived" of a strong biological drive when they have every reason to expect that drive to be satisfied at some level. I do not mean to say that it is justified to respond this way. But it should be at least somewhat understandable with even a basic understanding of how powerful that drive is.

[Guest]

I'm talking about daily and you know it. Why do you like to argue so much?

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm talking about daily and you know it.

 

I don't see your point. I'm not, as I said, justifying childish behavior. But some men...many men...particularly young, immature men with very strong libidos...are very likely to feel deprived even "daily". That is my plain point.

 

Why do you like to argue so much?

 

She says as she argues.

 

I only argue points I disagree with. I do not "like" to argue so much. I "like" to state my opinions. It is only "arguing" if you disagree with the opinion...in which case you are arguing too. If you don't "like" to argue, then don't argue with me about it. Walk away.

[Guest]

LOL Okay. 

[estradling75]

Interesting... when women sometimes show less then desirable actions or characteristics, and men call them on it... They will be told that "men just don't understand why a woman might act that way"  And that men need to practice greater empathy and understanding of how a woman is.

 

When men show less then desirable actions or characteristics, and women call them one it...The idea that women "just don't understand why a man might act that way" is dismissed and the men are told they need to repent and step up.

[beefche]

I'm with TFP on this. As a woman, I don't understand male libido completely, but from my readings and such, men equate sex with love, affection, attention, and as a necessity to life. A woman can be the perfect wife in every other way, but if she isn't providing sex on a regular basis, then that man will feel unloved and unappreciated.

 

Women don't seem to get this. They either don't want to understand or just refuse to acknowledge that men are THAT different from women in this aspect. 

 

Barring medical issues, I believe that it is a duty and responsibility of the wife (and husband in some cases) to provide sex on a regular basis to their spouse. What constitutes as "regular" and "sex" is between the individual couples. And there has to be compromise on both sides for this. Because while men need and want sex, women are happy without it for long periods of time. Daily duties as a wife and mother take a toll on a woman and she is often exhausted with still more things that she feels need to be done. It's difficult for a woman to just turn off her mind of the things that need to be done to focus on her intimacy with her husband. That's why doing the dishes, vacuuming, putting the kids to bed, etc. are so important to helping the wife focus on her intimate life with her husband.

 

In the case of the OP, I'm not sure what we can tell him to do. Other than seeing a marriage counselor for both of them, or a counselor for him, ultimately, if his wife doesn't want to provide the intimacy that he needs (with compromise and reason on his part as well as hers) then he must decide to stay in the marriage or leave. I know I have my opinion, but that opinion is only good for my marriage, not his or another's marriage. 

[The Folk Prophet]

In the case of the OP, I'm not sure what we can tell him to do. Other than seeing a marriage counselor for both of them, or a counselor for him, ultimately, if his wife doesn't want to provide the intimacy that he needs (with compromise and reason on his part as well as hers) then he must decide to stay in the marriage or leave. I know I have my opinion, but that opinion is only good for my marriage, not his or another's marriage. 

 

I do have a strong opinion on this. Any man who left his wife over such a thing has committed a grave, grave, grave sin and is in high danger of losing their exaltation unless they repent. Feeling deprived of something in no way justifies casting off that which should be most sacred unto us second only to our relationship with God. There are hundreds of things we will be deprived of in a marriage and family. Tough. Suck it up. Be a man. Honor your covenants. Grow up.

 

Yes...seek counselling together. Work to work it out. But if it doesn't work out, you stay true to your spouse -- absolutely loyal and committed regardless.

 

Strong libido and the natural feeling of deprivation that might follow from such a situation does not make one a sinner. I might as well call a woman a sinner for having postpartum depression or something. It is how we respond to these natural things that defines our righteousness. Responding with selfless commitment and loyalty, putting ourselves and our own needs aside in favor of the needs of others, and complete, absolute fidelity is a righteous response. Responding like a big baby and storming out of the marriage is an unrighteous one.

Edited January 13, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[What's in a name?]

My apologies for yesterday's posts.  I was (clearly) having a bit of a melt down, and emotionally vomited all over my computer screen.  I'm a little bit back on my feet now with some sleep.

 

Can I please attempt to re-summarize this way:

 

I'm facing some pretty difficult circumstances for an extended period of time now in a second marriage (almost 5 years of extremely difficult marriage).  I'm not prone to hyperbole, please accept these are pretty extreme circumstances without demanding I run down a laundry list of anyone's faults.  I've learned to not take rejection personally.  I've made huge progress in receiving contemptuous criticism without putting up defenses, shutting down, or otherwise retaliating.  Truly turning the other cheek, and giving hugs of reassurance in response.   I have progressed greatly (relative to where I was previously) in loving openly and unconditionally. I am working on being more consistent with that (and will touch upon that aspect further when I have a chance to respond to anatess). 

 

As much as I have progressed, or see where I need to improve in many areas, there is one area that eludes me, and remains a horrible thorn in my side without hope of seeing the path to relieving it.  I cannot see what Heavenly Father wants me to learn from this circumstance other than to endure through something that is more emotionally painful than loosing my mother, more gut wrenching than being shot by a gun, or any other circumstance I've experienced in life. (

 

In short (ha! as if I'm ever short in descriptions!!), I have been endowed with a high sex drive. I didn't choose this. I don't want it.  I want to be free of it. I trust, as President Kimball stated, this is a divinely instituted magnetism, albeit it seems to be stronger in me than many.  I have fasted and begged for change of my drive. It does cause temptation that is so powerful at times, I do feel "insane". "insane" in that they are NOT thoughts I want, but I feel powerless to prevent their intrusion. I can push them out, change the channel, but I feel powerless to prevent their resurrection.  If you can't understand that, GREAT!  I am soooo happy for you that you don't have to deal with it!! It sucks, big time.  Anyway, I digress . . . this isn't as short as I intended.  

 

I knew myself in this regard, and the difficulties of my prior marriage. I attempted to be very careful to select compatibility in this one factor, among all the others. No, intimacy fulfillment was not my reason for remarrying, nor was it the primary factor in determine who to marry.  But I was careful to try to avoid incompatibility and the difficulties I know arise from that. 

 

Despite my pleadings to Heavenly Father for guidance in marriage choices (and being directed to enter into this relationship), despite my most careful attempts to ensure compatibility, despite my pleadings to Heavenly Father to have my desire reduced, I find myself in the very situation I so desperately wanted to avoid.  I can only conclude I am in this situation for a purpose. But as much as I've tried to ponder why I'm in this set of circumstances, and taken my ideas to God to ask "is this what I am to learn?", I have received no guidance. I'm at a loss.  I'm reaching out for insight/ideas/inspiration as to why I might be in the very situation that I sought to avoid, that is so painful to me, and is "generally" the first cause of divorce among LDS (historically).  I hurt. I hurt badly.  I'm asking for help to figure out what I may need to learn, and how to learn it, that perhaps I don't have to linger in the circumstances longer than necessary.  

[Guest]

 

Interesting... when women sometimes show less then desirable actions or characteristics, and men call them on it... They will be told that "men just don't understand why a woman might act that way"  And that men need to practice greater empathy and understanding of how a woman is.

 

When men show less then desirable actions or characteristics, and women call them one it...The idea that women "just don't understand why a man might act that way" is dismissed and the men are told they need to repent and step up.

 

I've heard/seen guys say that, but I think in this case you're thinking less of most women than what is true.

 

Personally, my marriage is very much give and take. I, and most other women I know, accept our shortcomings and work on them for the sake of our husbands. I think most men I know are doing the same. Problems come when focus is on what "I" deserve and "I" want and getting what "I" need when and how often I insist I need it (from both sides. . . that can be sex, or money/material goods, or time out with friends, whatever). 

 

There are a lot of things I've wanted since I've gotten married that my husband couldn't provide, or that would have done more harm than good to him or us. The last couple of years I've gone without some basic things I thought I needed (I'm not talking about cable TV or new clothes every month), but it turns out my husband is doing his best and worn out and it would only hurt him AND us to remind him that he's not doing "enough". Insisting that a "natural drive" be fulfilled on a daily basis (or whatever isn't a reasonable frequency, which isn't the debate I'm getting into) makes it more about the man than the woman and takes the closeness out of it, at least to some degree. So you might feel physically better, but the message your wife is likely getting is that her primary function to you is providing you means to satisfy a drive, and if she doesn't do that to your expectation, maybe you'll go out and find someone who will.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Eowyn

[omegaseamaster75]

I suspect that this is not the route you want to take and I know that libido is not the only problem in your marriage but...you can pray and ask to have your libido lowered. 

???? Really????

[The Folk Prophet]

???? Really????

 

Well...you can pray for this. Whether it'll work or not (hint: it won't) is another matter.

[Guest]

Well, God can do anything. But I don't think God takes away the things that make things difficult most of the time. We're meant to become stronger, not have the weights taken away.

 

(For clarity: no, I don't think it's "wrong" to have a high libido, any more than it's "wrong" to have a low one. A weakness, but only in that it can be a struggle. Yes, a marriage needs regular sex. No, it's not right for a woman to withhold.) 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Eowyn

[What's in a name?]

As strong as many people's libido may be, it is not normal (and I may be persuaded to say sinful) for a man to be so motivated that to be deprived "drives one insane".

I am so glad you don't understand.  I'm not being facetious.  I'm honestly happy for you. 

 

I do wonder if you have done much reading on human sexuality to be making comments like that though?  "Normal" is difficult to define, even for the researchers and experts.  "Normal" spans an extremely wide variety of circumstances from nearly asexual to extremely high drives.  

 

I do wonder if you have contemplated deeply the temporal conditions that have been created for us (divinely so).  Would you call cerebral palsy abnormal?  Breast cancer abnormal?  Depression, ADHD, schizophrenia, diabetes, cancer, the common cold, and all else "abnormal"?  How about being born into a broken home that teaches a life of crime? Is that normal or abnormal?  Is there really any such thing as normal or abnormal?  I have a testimony that there is no such thing as "abnormal" when it comes to the customized circumstances that each soul faces.  This life is for growth and development, not facing a standardized set of parameters according to someones preferences.   

 

Who are you to judge me as abnormal and sinful to have been blessed with a particular challenge that is different than your sins?  And judge me of that when I'm trying desperately to choose the right, fight off temptations, and turn to the Lord  and my brothers/sisters for guidance?  Strange.  

[The Folk Prophet]

I am so glad you don't understand.  I'm not being facetious.  I'm honestly happy for you. 

 

I do wonder if you have done much reading on human sexuality to be making comments like that though?  "Normal" is difficult to define, even for the researchers and experts.  "Normal" spans an extremely wide variety of circumstances from nearly asexual to extremely high drives.  

 

I do wonder if you have contemplated deeply the temporal conditions that have been created for us (divinely so).  Would you call cerebral palsy abnormal?  Breast cancer abnormal?  Depression, ADHD, schizophrenia, diabetes, cancer, the common cold, and all else "abnormal"?  How about being born into a broken home that teaches a life of crime? Is that normal or abnormal?  Is there really any such thing as normal or abnormal?  I have a testimony that there is no such thing as "abnormal" when it comes to the customized circumstances that each soul faces.  This life is for growth and development, not facing a standardized set of parameters according to someones preferences.   

 

Who are you to judge me as abnormal and sinful to have been blessed with a particular challenge that is different than your sins?  And judge me of that when I'm trying desperately to choose the right, fight off temptations, and turn to the Lord  and my brothers/sisters for guidance?  Strange.  

 

Oh come on. "Normal" and "insane" are not congruent in plain speech. It's not "judging" you. It's simple fact. If you can't handle this then there is something off in you that needs to be dealt with. It's not a libido issue. It is a psychological one.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I find myself in the very situation I so desperately wanted to avoid . . . I'm at a loss. I'm reaching out for insight/ideas/inspiration as to why I might be in the very situation that I sought to avoid . . .

This part of what you said stood out to me. This is a common dilemma of humans, for example children of alcoholics tend to either become alcoholic or marry an alcoholic. Either way jumping solidly back into a situation that brought them pain. Women who have been abused (either as a child or in a previous relationship) desperately want to avoid that situation again and yet most often they marry another abuser, recreating the very thing they wanted to avoid.

A great book that explains why this happens and what to do is Getting the Love You Want by Harvil Hendrix. As a marriage counselor he has a lot of experience with this.

You might also try The Peacegiver by James Ferrel. Even if you've read it before. I think this book is a classic and with a classic, you learn something different each time you read it.

Edited January 13, 2016 by LiterateParakeet

[omegaseamaster75]

Oh come on. "Normal" and "insane" are not congruent in plain speech. It's not "judging" you. It's simple fact. If you can't handle this then there is something off in you that needs to be dealt with. It's not a libido issue. It is a psychological one.

This kills me because it has been happening a lot, but I agree. OP you need professional help. 

[Guest]

Yeah, even if she won't go to couple's therapy, get yourself some. 

[beefche]

 

Despite my pleadings to Heavenly Father for guidance in marriage choices (and being directed to enter into this relationship), despite my most careful attempts to ensure compatibility, despite my pleadings to Heavenly Father to have my desire reduced, I find myself in the very situation I so desperately wanted to avoid.  I can only conclude I am in this situation for a purpose. But as much as I've tried to ponder why I'm in this set of circumstances, and taken my ideas to God to ask "is this what I am to learn?", I have received no guidance. I'm at a loss.  I'm reaching out for insight/ideas/inspiration as to why I might be in the very situation that I sought to avoid, that is so painful to me, and is "generally" the first cause of divorce among LDS (historically).  I hurt. I hurt badly.  I'm asking for help to figure out what I may need to learn, and how to learn it, that perhaps I don't have to linger in the circumstances longer than necessary.  

 

I believe that there are some things in life that we must endure. And each person's trials are different than our own. Our trials in life are for our learning and experience. And some of those trials will be with us all of our life. So, I believe that some things we may never understand in this life. Your thorn may be with you your entire life and you may not understand why while you are in this life. 

 

I'm just at the beginning of my understanding of faith in a different way than I believed before my marriage. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of something. You may understand one or two things about this trial, but to truly have faith, you will not understand or know it completely. 

 

So, perhaps, what you need to learn is to simply endure it well. Learn what it means to live with faith. Learn what it means to truly rely on the Lord and His laws. Learn what it means to continue to love and have charity for others (including your wife, children, neighbor, etc.) even when it seems we are being beaten. Learn about the Lord's compensation for what we have lost. 

[beefche]

I do have a strong opinion on this. Any man who left his wife over such a thing has committed a grave, grave, grave sin and is in high danger of losing their exaltation unless they repent. Feeling deprived of something in no way justifies casting off that which should be most sacred unto us second only to our relationship with God. There are hundreds of things we will be deprived of in a marriage and family. Tough. Suck it up. Be a man. Honor your covenants. Grow up.

 

 

My opinion on this issue doesn't hold as much weight as another man's opinion, IMO. I'm a woman so stating that I think he should not leave his wife over this issue doesn't carry as much influence as another man stating it. That's what I was trying to say that my opinion doesn't matter.