Starting a family early vs Deciding your family is complete

[Backroads]

On another thread came a tangent about not delaying beginning our families. Yet I've seen plenty of instances where a couple happily follows the counsel to not delay, has two kids or four kids or what have you, and decides the family is complete and no more kids to come.

 

We are counseled to not delaying having kids, yet there is no counsel I'm aware of regarding deciding when to complete one's family.

 

For sake of discussion, why?

[prisonchaplain]

Could it be that the decision to stop is based on actual conditions, whereas the decision to delay starting is usually based on fears?  For example, when delivery is by C-section, after 2-3 babies, it's often not possible to have any more (without extraordinary measures).  If there are two or more cases where there was gestational diabetes (each one increases the likelihood of the permanent version).  Then again, the couple may realize that the number of children they have is the number they can raise responsibly. 

[Guest]

I'd change the word "fears" to "worldly concerns".

 

Most people want to put off having children for reasons that are not really valid.  #1: Money.  Yes, there are exceptions.  But most use this as an excuse to spend more on themselves and "enjoy life" while they can.  They don't realize that they wouldn't really be giving up much money to have kids early.  And they end up being more successful because of the blessings of parenthood.

[The Folk Prophet]

...yet there is no counsel I'm aware of regarding deciding when to complete one's family.

 

 

There's sort of counsel. It's not specific (nor would it be appropriate, obviously, to be specific (as in, everyone must have 8.3 children or be doomed)), but... (I had this in the quotes in the other thread too):

 

“Love realizes his sweetest happiness and his most divine consummation in the home where the coming of children is not restricted, where they are made most welcome, and where the duties of parenthood are accepted as a co-partnership with the eternal Creator.

 

“In all this, however, the mother’s health should be guarded. In the realm of wifehood, the woman should reign supreme” (Gospel Ideals, 469).

President Joseph Fielding Smith

[mirkwood]

We waited eight years.  We did not miss a thing.  We should be careful about judging other's choices in when to have kids and how many.  That is a couple's choice and nobody else's.

[mrmarklin]

We can't judge others. Everyone lives in a different situation economically as well as socially and location. All these factors (and more) enter into the when and how many children a couple may have.

[Guest]

We got married when my husband was only 21 with a feast-or-famine job as a model and without a high school diploma.  I was well situated with a good paying job and a house.  He decided to delay children until he was out of the modeling scene, got his GED, and had a stable job because he believes strongly that God wants him to be able to support the family and for me to not have to work when the children come.

 

I was Catholic - artificial birth control is discouraged and I didn't want to go through the trouble of Catholic birth control as I have conditions that make it more complicated than normal.  So, it became a source of contention between us.  Our first year of marriage was spent with him taking 100% responsibility for birth control.  He finally got situated enough to have a stable enough job that pays enough money to support a family but was still a long way away from finishing college.  He felt he was ready even as he still didn't receive confirmation from the Spirit.  

 

Well... because of my issues, I didn't get pregnant until 4 years later - he has already finished his degree and I was already baptized.  Our first child was born a month after we got sealed in the temple... born in covenant.

 

God works in mysterious ways.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Could it be that the decision to stop is based on actual conditions, whereas the decision to delay starting is usually based on fears? For example, when delivery is by C-section, after 2-3 babies, it's often not possible to have any more (without extraordinary measures). If there are two or more cases where there was gestational diabetes (each one increases the likelihood of the permanent version). Then again, the couple may realize that the number of children they have is the number they can raise responsibly.

This brilliant PC. I think the idea of fears vs reality nails it.

[Guest]

Oh yeah, we stopped at 2.  My husband wanted to stop at 2 but didn't get confirmation on it.  I wanted to keep going until I run out of eggs (I was also hoping for a girl)... well, I almost died giving birth to my 2 kids so the doctor said the next one could be the end, so we decided to take his advice and got myself spayed while he already had me opened up after fishing out baby #2.  Another one of those decisions that went out of our hands.

Edited January 12, 2016 by anatess

[Guest]

I knew without a doubt when we were complete. We always thought we'd have 4 or 5, then 4 and 5 decided to come at the same time. :) Almost 5 years and I haven't felt a longing for more children, and in fact I know in my mind and heart that we hae all we can handle, in every way. 

 

I haven't closed my mind on the matter, but I really do feel that we're done. And I'm not getting any younger (nor is Faramir). 

[The Folk Prophet]

I find it interesting how many go to "don't judge", "we can't judge" on this sort of topic...as if that really has anything to do with the question. Of course we shouldn't judge. We don't know other's situations, reasons, Spiritual guidance, etc.

 

But that has nothing to do with the principle at hand, which is what the counsel is (or if there is any) on how many children we should have.

 

Obviously I have a bit of different view on the matter than most. I think most are highly influenced by the trends of the world to have smaller families, not burden ourselves financially or otherwise too much, etc. Families have gotten smaller and smaller in society. That's not a good thing.

 

I come from a family of 9. My older sister has 10. My other bro's and sis's around my age have large-ish families too...many of them still working on it. My parents have lots of grandkids!

 

Then there's me and my wife who have been unable to have any going on 20 years. Yeah...that also colors my view. We go to family things (like my latest niece who just got baptized) and we come home and just cry. It sucks! I wanted a big family. I loved my family growing up. I have always seen beauty and value in big families. The love and power of making the bearing and raising many children the priority cannot be overstated. And yet we'll be lucky to have 1 or 2 ever. It's highly likely at this point we'll end up with none. Adoption is getting harder. Fertility treatments have failed (we now know we'll never have them naturally). Etc. I go and visit my sister with 10 and see their home and it hurts -- bad.

 

Are there issues with her large family? Of course. Large families cause issues. It is a major sacrifice. Most good things are like that. But the blessings... My sister's family is SO wonderful. I am (admittedly I need to repent of this) so jealous of her. Of course I'm also jealous of my youngest sister who has only been able to have one and likely won't be able to have more because of health issues.

 

I don't judge others for not having children or only having a few. I have none. Many judge me and my wife not knowing that we cannot. I'll bet dollars to donuts many who read this will judge even still (why didn't you adopt sooner? How come you didn't try fertility sooner? Etc. (Because we were stupid and irresponsible, that's why! ))

 

It would be sad if someone judged my poor, wonderful youngest sister who struggles so badly with only being able to have one.

 

Yeah...we shouldn't judge.

 

But that doesn't change the principle that large families are wonderful! It doesn't change the fact that those who choose purposefully to limit their families for the wrong reasons are selling themselves out of blessings and joy that they could otherwise have. I've lost out on many of those blessings and joy. Some of that is my fault. A lot of it is not. But the fact that it is or isn't my fault changes nothing as to the loss. I lost out.

 

Beyond the joy, it is a commandment. It has been counseled to have families, let them come naturally (for the most part) and to make it a priority...make it THE priority.

 

There are good reasons to stop having children. Many of them. The primary one is, as has been stated, the mother's health. That can mean mentally and/or emotionally too, I believe, though we should be careful to not make excuses. There are other valid reasons too, of course. But the overall principle remains, and will remain. There are spirits waiting to come down to earth that need to be born into good righteous families. We should do our best to accommodate them.

Edited January 12, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Windseeker]

I was a poor flight attendant and never home when my first child was born and he was a honeymoon baby. We did end up divorcing 14 years later but it had nothing to do with when the kids came.

 

It's nice being in my forties and having kids in their twenties. I have no regrets having kids early.

[EarlJibbs]

After three children Mrs Earl and I were certain we were finished. I was even planning on having the "procedure" done. Some of my friends had gone that route. I kept putting it off. At one point my wife thought she was pregnant being way past her regular menstrual cycle. Our first thought was about how we weren't planning on having anymore children, then we moved to talking about potential names and we felt excited. Eventually, the tests said she wasn't pregnant and she had her period.

 

Finding out that we weren't going to have a baby; we felt disappointed. We prayed and fasted. We talked about it and came to this conclusion for our family as confirmed by the spirit. The spirit seemed to say to me very clearly, "Why not?" and my thoughts went to picturing a child born to parents who wouldn't care for a child, or being born outside of the covenant (not that the two are related), and this hit me strong. The voice said again "Why not?"  I could give one of Gods children a loving home with loving siblings. I believe that the "scare" we had with my wife being late was to prepare us. Perhaps God was already asking us to have another child but we weren't listening, or we were refusing. I was being selfish. In the end, we haven't regretted having another one since. We feel at peace and I cannot imagine our life without our little jewel.   

 

My answer to the OP is this, starting a family right when you get married, or delaying it, can and should be planned with the Lords help. Converse with the Lord about it. Maybe waiting or starting now is the same. Perhaps waiting will be best. The council not to delay, as PC stated, could be related to fears or to the natural man. But if we present our problems to the Lord, then I don't see how we can make a wrong decision. Bringing children into a loving family, whenever the timing is either a good, or better decision. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by EarlJibbs

[Guest]

I can't help but feel that this is very much related to the elective abortion question.

 

We may feel that rape victims who are thoroughly mentally incapacitated would be better off eliminating the resulting baby than bringing the baby to term.

 

In the same token as the OP's question is... it's between her and the Lord... the Lord (through the bishop or the priesthood authority in the family) is the only way one can answer this question and come up with the right answer.

[Backroads]

If a couple delays starting a family for selfish reasons, could they use similar reasons to defend no more kids? We want to work on our careers, we want to earn more money, kids are expensive, we are getting old and tired, etc.

[Guest]

I think old and tired is valid. Maybe because lately that's how I'm feeling. lol

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I think old and tired is valid. Maybe because lately that's how I'm feeling. lol

Me too. I can't imagine having another child now! But then since I'm 49, no one expects me to. LOL.

[Vort]

Yeah...we shouldn't judge.

 

But that doesn't change the principle that large families are wonderful! It doesn't change the fact that those who choose purposefully to limit their families for the wrong reasons are selling themselves out of blessings and joy that they could otherwise have. I've lost out on many of those blessings and joy. Some of that is my fault. A lot of it is not. But the fact that it is or isn't my fault changes nothing as to the loss. I lost out.

 

Behold the central point. Is it a "sin" to cut off your arm? I don't know; maybe. But if you cut off your arm, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE AN ARM. That's the "punishment" for self-amputation.

 

Most people have the capacity to reproduce. Because this is so common, we tend to think of it as vulgar and often fail to realize what a marvelous, miraculous, Godly thing it is. I think many among us are guilty of treating this lightly and taking it for granted, something all too obvious to those (like TFP) who have thus far been denied the blessing.

[Guest]

Behold the central point. Is it a "sin" to cut off your arm? I don't know; maybe. But if you cut off your arm, THEN YOU DON'T HAVE AN ARM. That's the "punishment" for self-amputation.

 

Most people have the capacity to reproduce. Because this is so common, we tend to think of it as vulgar and often fail to realize what a marvelous, miraculous, Godly thing it is. I think many among us are guilty of treating this lightly and taking it for granted, something all too obvious to those (like TFP) who have thus far been denied the blessing.

 

Let's not forget the Global Warming Climate Change activists who think it a crime to have more than 1 offspring because it is killing the planet.

 

And then there's the flip side of the coin where Middle Easterners are reproducing at high rates, not only to build an army, but also so they can out-populate the West to extinction.

 

People can be so misguided.

[The Folk Prophet]

Let's not forget the Global Warming Climate Change activists who think it a crime to have more than 1 offspring because it is killing the planet.

 

It's all anti-choice LDS propaganda

 

[Guest]

Jimmy, we love you...

[Guest]

On the one hand we're told that if we see a family that has no kids or few kids, then we shouldn't be judging them in spite of the "be fruitful and multiply" commandment 1) because it's their business and 2) They may have a really good reason (like physically unable to do so) and that is an area that you really don't want to stick your nose into.

 

On the other hand, I'm reminded of how Joseph Smith prophesied that there would come a day when only LDS women would be willing to have children.  Throughout my life, people have told me that this could never happen because Catholics (and today Muslims and Hindus) will always have lots of kids.

 

I've seen the rate drop among Catholics to below replacement rate.  LDS are still strong.  I expect to see the rate go down among both Muslims and Hindus, especially in the US.  For some reason, the US is just really down on having large families.  

 

Muslims elsewhere have big families.  In the US they have big families for one generation.  Then in two or three generations, they may have none.  

 

A more stark trend is among Hindus.  The first generation US Hindus only have two or three kids.  Second generation one or two, ...maybe.

 

I wonder if Joseph's prophecy only referred to US population. -- I haven't read the reference myself.  Truman Madsen referred to the prophecy in his Joseph Smith lecture series.  Does anyone actually have that reference?

Edited January 13, 2016 by Guest

[Vort]

I'm reminded of how Joseph Smith prophesied that there would come a day when only LDS women would be willing to have children. [...] I wonder if Joseph's prophecy only referred to US population. -- I haven't read the reference myself.  Truman Madsen referred to the prophecy in his Joseph Smith lecture series.  Does anyone actually have that reference?

 

I used to have the book form of Madsen's JS lectures. I can't find it right now, which is irritating. The book is nice because it has footnotes to further explain many of the tidbits Madsen offers. (The wording of many of Madsen's statements is also considerably toned down in the book, as compared with the lectures.)

 

Anyway, as I recall from looking into this some years ago, the book footnotes a conversation, recorded third-hand, between the Prophet and someone else wherein Joseph is supposed to have said something to this effect. It may well be true, but my recollection of the supporting statement was that it was hardly what any historian would consider bullet-proof.

[Guest MormonGator]

Growing up Catholic I saw so many people marry at 18-22, start having kids and then get divorced at 25. I always wondered why these people would not use birth control (against church teaching) but get divorced (also against church teaching). 

[Sunday21]

Divorce probably lowers the murder rate, also against church teachings!