Is it possible/common/normal for church members to have a tree of life vision?

[Sunday21]

Reading 1 nephi, nephi seems to suggest to his older brother that it might be possible for them to have their own visionary experience. I assume that lamen and Lemuel would have to improve their behaviour and pray sincerely. Is this part of Mormonism? Do rank and file church members have such experiences? Is this something to aspire to?

[NeedleinA]

Is it possible, yes. Is it something to aspire to? Improving our behavior and praying sincerely is something to work towards, but aspiring to receive a vision I would suggest is not. Some members will have experiences like this for themselves or those under their stewardship. How Heavenly Father decides to communicate between individuals is...well "individual". Perhaps soft promptings of the Spirit are enough to guide a person. On the other hand maybe a vision is required for a different person. I have been a member for decades and have not had what I would equate to a Tree of Life Vision, no do I ever expect one. "IF" it happens, it would be because Heavenly Father wanted it to happen, not because I aspired or expected it to happen. 

 

Also, I would be more inclined to believe that Nephi would have suggested that his brothers could receive their own personal confirmations to the truth. How that confirmation could have taken place could have been varied, but not limited to only a personal vision. 

 

On a side note, not sure why, but I feel I should also mention: Revelation/visions that come to us flow down to your own stewardship, they don't flow up the chain. 

[Guest]

There is a subset of apostate Mormons following someone I won't mention here who believe something like that is necessary. But said person-who-will-not-be-named and his notions have been rejected by the Church.

[estradling75]

We are command/encouraged to seek Revelations from God.  It strikes me as a bit presumptuous to try to dictate the form that the revelations will take.

 

Now the D&C is very clear that God has a pattern on to whom he will give revelation to the church through, and I think that there are some who receive visions and what not and then take that as an excuse to violate the Lords pattern.

 

I think that there is quite like quite a few who do receive such and understand the Lord's pattern and therefore keep it to themselves.  If this is true then we will not hear about it, thus making us think it does not happen

[The Folk Prophet]

But said person-who-will-not-be-named

 

Voldemort?

[The Folk Prophet]

and I think that there are some who receive visions and what not and then take that as an excuse to violate the Lords pattern.

 

I find myself skeptical.

[Laniston]

Certainly we have been taught "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you."  Nephi wanted to see the vision his father had, and sought faithfully the Lord for that purpose.  I don't see why anyone couldn't ask for that same vision, but I believe that before we ask for something like that it would be important to know why we are asking.

 

Because we have 2 accounts of Lehi's vision and the very clear interpretation of it, in my eyes a prayerful study of the Book of Mormon would be enough to more or less understand the Tree of Life vision.  So why ask for it?  Personally I think it would be really cool to see.  Like a movie adaptation of a book is cool because a lot of us enjoy visuals over visualization sometimes.  I have thought a few times about asking for this vision myself, but I usually hesitate because I think that I am only asking for curiosity's sake or my own entertainment so to speak. 

 

If we remember from the Book of Mormon, Nephi had previously been following Lehi based on the comforting assurance from the Spirit that Lehi was indeed a prophet, and their course towards the promised land away from Jerusalem (love that irony) was correct.  In asking for the vision Lehi had Nephi also had his own visions, going far beyond the scope of Lehi's original dream which forever made Nephi a witness to the reality of the Christ.  This doesn't mean I would have the same kind of experience as Nephi, but having even just Lehi's vision would mean being responsible for having that vision. 

[Guest]

Voldemort?

 

He wishes.

[omegaseamaster75]

Voldemort?

Beat me to it

[askandanswer]

Voldemort?

 

Vortemort?

[mordorbund]

Read what Lehi and Nephi got out of the vision (in contrast to the vision itself). You'll find that it covers:

• Personal salvation
• Family salvation (immediate and down to the last generation)
• Individual and familial roles in the Lord's plan (here specifically the scattering and gathering of Israel)
• The Lord's instrumentality in all this (focused on the Savior)

Personal, revelatory knowledge of any and all of these things should be sought. There's nothing forbidden about them.

[Sunday21]

So Nephi was praying not to have a vision but to have a conformation of the truthfulness of his father's vision? Nephi was not recommending that his brothers pray for a vision but rather that they pray to know and understand their father's vision? To pray for a vision is seeking a sign which is something sinful people do?

[Just_A_Guy]

1 Nephi 10:17 seems to suggest that Nephi did request a vision--at the very least, he wanted to "see, and hear, and know of these things".

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for a vision--so long as we're willing to pay the price.  But then again, I suspect it's a fearful price to pay; which is why I personally have never dared to ask for one.  And I think it's when we start demanding extraordinary spiritual manifestations--or believing there's something wrong with ourselves (or the Gospel) if such manifestations don't come--that we really start getting ourselves into trouble.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

Section 76 was a vision of the kingdoms of glory. Verses 7 and 116-117 seem to indicate (to me) that this vision can be given to anyone who is worthy and who asks. So the idea that the Saints are given access to the selfsame visions that the prophets themselves receive seems to me a well-established point.

 

Nephi seemed unafraid to ask for a reviewing of the vision his father had; in 1 Ne 11:3, Nephi says outright, "I desire to behold the things which my father saw."

 

So in answer to the OP, I would say emphatically "Yes". We do indeed believe that such visions are open to the "rank and file", which is to say, to all worthy Saints. "Station" is of absolutely no consequence in such things; spiritual maturity and sinlessness are the only apparent requirements.

[Vort]

So Nephi was praying not to have a vision but to have a conformation of the truthfulness of his father's vision? Nephi was not recommending that his brothers pray for a vision but rather that they pray to know and understand their father's vision? To pray for a vision is seeking a sign which is something sinful people do?

 

I think that, in general, "praying for a vision" is sign-seeking, and thus adulterous behavior. But as Nephi's experience shows, it is possible to seek after knowledge in a way that is not adulterous or sign-seeking, just as one may experience the joy and profundity of conjugal relations without committing adultery.

[Guest]

Common? No. (of course, that depends on your definition of "common").

 

Possible?  Absolutely.

 

Should we "expect" them? No.

 

Should we "seek after" them?  Only if it is the natural process of your spiritual growth.

[james12]

It is indeed our privilege to seek for, and obtain, revelation. Joseph Smith speaking in third person stated plainly, "God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them. …” (TPJS, p. 149).

 

Of course there is a process to these things and we do not seek such experiences to consume it upon our lusts, but we should see a process unfolding in our lives. Nephi's examples is instructive. First, he cried unto the Lord, "and behold he [the Lord] did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe" (1 Ne 2:16). We don't know exactly what "visit me" means, but I suspect it was just a feeling of peace. Many members time and time again receive such a visit and feeling of peace. It is one of the most common personal revelations in the church.

 

Second, Nephi cries to the Lord for his brothers and the Lord speaks to him (2 Ne 2:19). I may be wrong, but I suspect, that it was not an audible voice. Read Enos's words about the experience he had and note what manner the voice comes, "behold, the voice of the Lord came into my mind again, saying..." (Enos 1:10). A voice came to his mind. I believe this also happens in the church fairly regularly however some cannot well distinguish the voice of the Lord speaking in their minds and their own thoughts. They have not yet learned to "hear" his voice.

 

Third, an angel visits Nephi and his brothers. However, the interesting thing here is that Laman and Lemuel do not care at all about the angel. I wonder if they even recognized that it was an angel of the Lord, because right after he departs Laman and Lemuel question what the angel said.

 

Finally, Nephi sees the vision of the tree of life in which he is caught away in the Spirit of the Lord. This is a culmination of all the faith he has exercised in the Lord up to this point. Fewer can rend the veil as Nephi did. It takes discernment, confidence in the Lord, and a determination to follow him. But surely it is possible for any saint. The scriptures testify of it again and again.

 

The brother of Jared traveled a similar spiritual path. After the he sees the Lord Moroni cannot contain himself. He testifies boldly and then gives us the Lord's words as he himself received them:

Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief. ...Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you - yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel. (Ether 4:13,15)

Of this very scripture Elder Holland says:

Once and for all it was declared that ordinary people with ordinary challenges could rend the veil of unbelief and enter the relms of eternity. And Christ, who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem his people, would stand in all his glory at the edge of that veil, ready to receive the believers and show them "how great things the Father had laid up" for them at the end of faith's journey. (Christ and the New Covenant, p 29)

And so it is, and indeed must be. It is we who will not pierce the veil, and it is we who prevent the Lord from manifesting himself in various ways and means. 

[Sunday21]

Thank you for your helpful responses!

[Traveler]

There is more than one way to receive divine revelation from G-d.  It is my personal belief and understanding that visions and dreams are overrated by many within the religious community.  As an engineer and scientist as well as a devout covenant member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I have come to appreciate the symbolism that often accompanies revelation given to individuals.  But beyond the nuts and bolts of what is passed on from prophets and others given visions and dreams is a connection to a spirit of light and intelligence that goes beyond the medium of revelation to the pure knowledge of what is being given.  The Tree of Life is symbolic.

 

I learned a lot about symbolism growing up as the son of an artist but it has taken me a lifetime to understand the difference between symbolism and reality and that symbolism is more powerful than reality.  However, symbolism and reality feed off each other and part of divine insight comes from learning from both symbolism and reality. 

 

For a long time I thought I had appreciated the symbolism in Lehi’s vision of the tree of life – that is until I began to realize the importance that the tree of life has in Arabic culture.  In the center of the capitol of Bahrain (Manama) stands a sacred shrine to the Middle Eastern Tree of Life.   The reason this tree is sacred goes far back in time and precedes Islam and fits more in time and place with Abraham.  It is believed that G-d (Allah) gave 3 great gifts to the Arabic peoples that live in the barren lands of Arabia (of mortality or loan and dreary earth).  The first great gift is water, the second is the Tree of Life and the third is the camel.

 

The Arabic tree of life is a date palm tree but not just any date palm but a unique variety that grows almost exclusively in Western Arabia.  The dates are a pale white (the whiter the better and more valuable the fruit).  This particular date is sweet and the whiter the date the more sweet it is – but the reason this date is so important and valuable is that when the date is ripe it can be stored and eaten for a very long time – even a few months in the extreme heat of Arabia without rotting.  It is the single natural food source for humans that allow travel across the vast deserts of that region.  The only nourishment that get someone back home – it is the source of life (food) for someone living in the deserts of Arabia.

 

I am somewhat skeptical of someone claiming to have experienced Lehi’s dream of the tree of life that is in essence a replication of something out of our place and time.  I do not think the significance of the tree shown to Lehi would have the same symbolic impact to someone in our western modern culture.  I am convinced, that should G-d provide a vision to encompass the same aggregate meaning that it would deploy different symbolism for our place and time.  I tend to think there are some very simple nuggets of truth that we in our day and time cannot see in ancient revelations – I am of a notion that despite the scriptures; I think I understand the teachings but perhaps I do not quite interpret such things to the depth that Lehi understood.  For these reason I am also very skeptical of the religious thinker that pronounces that the scriptures and their understanding of the scriptures are sufficient and completes their mortal struggle to connect to the divine.   They are feeding themselves poppycock to their own demise and flawed purpose.  Covenantal connections to divinely appointed (anointed) living oracles are as essential in our day and time as it was anciently when any scripture we have in our day was created.

[NeedleinA]

I am convinced, that should G-d provide a vision to encompass the same aggregate meaning that it would deploy different symbolism for our place and time.  

Very nice thought and point - thanks

[Anddenex]

On my mission a missionary, one of my companions, specified the principle we are to seek, and we are to ask.  He specified, "Why not ask for a dream"?  I never thought of this at this time.  Ask Heavenly Father if he would be willing to teach me through a dream.

 

That night I prayed and asked our Father in heaven if he would bless me with a teaching of a dream.  That night I was given a dream, one of my most clear dreams by which I could remember ever aspect of the dream and I still do.  This dream is why I am married to Mrs. Anddenex.  

 

Yes, we are to seek, ask, and knock.  Nephi wanted to see, hear, and know all his father had seen.  He was granted this through his faith and righteous desires.  I have no qualm with any member of the Church seeking the same blessings as those of old.  

 

Abraham sought after the blessings of the Father's and to know as they knew.  Isaac sought the same and so did Jacob.  Joseph who was sold into Egypt would have sought the same and probably received the same himself.  The danger is that if it is not in God's will, at that time, a person might feel they are less worthy, less valiant, and may cause grief.  

 

An aspect of faith is an expectation that God is able to reveal what he has revealed, as Nephi, "I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me."  I believed and had faith that the Lord would grant a dream and he did.  I did not know what dream but a dream was given.

 

How can we receive without asking?  We can't. If we never ask, we will not receive, well....unless we be like Laman and Lemuel and an angel visits without our asking and we don't listen...ya, major problem -- don't want that.  I am not going to dictate to my Father in heaven, but I will ask, and I will move forward with faith even if not received.

 

I also remember, when I was teaching seminary for special needs and having a rough day/week.  I knelt down and prayed, "Father, I know we are not to ask for a sign, and I am not asking for a sign...well, let me honest, yes I am asking for a sign.  I need to know if I am in the right place and what I am doing is thy will...."  I proceeded to ask for one thing and one thing only.  I ended my prayer, "Father, I know I am not to ask for a sign, please just help me to recognize thy answer when given."  

 

The very next day, the one thing I asked for was given.  If we do not ask, we will not receive, and we need to ask in the right spirit.

[Vort]

Vortemort?

 

Huh? Did someone say something? No? [goes back to nefarious work]

Edited January 13, 2016 by Vort

[The Folk Prophet]

See. By naming him we draw his attention. Let this be a lesson!

[Guest]

Why isn't that Vort-de-mort instead of Vortemort?  (Gas of death).

[Traveler]

On my mission a missionary, one of my companions, specified the principle we are to seek, and we are to ask.  He specified, "Why not ask for a dream"?  I never thought of this at this time.  Ask Heavenly Father if he would be willing to teach me through a dream.

 

That night I prayed and asked our Father in heaven if he would bless me with a teaching of a dream.  That night I was given a dream, one of my most clear dreams by which I could remember ever aspect of the dream and I still do.  This dream is why I am married to Mrs. Anddenex.  

 

Yes, we are to seek, ask, and knock.  Nephi wanted to see, hear, and know all his father had seen.  He was granted this through his faith and righteous desires.  I have no qualm with any member of the Church seeking the same blessings as those of old.  

 

Abraham sought after the blessings of the Father's and to know as they knew.  Isaac sought the same and so did Jacob.  Joseph who was sold into Egypt would have sought the same and probably received the same himself.  The danger is that if it is not in God's will, at that time, a person might feel they are less worthy, less valiant, and may cause grief.  

 

An aspect of faith is an expectation that God is able to reveal what he has revealed, as Nephi, "I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me."  I believed and had faith that the Lord would grant a dream and he did.  I did not know what dream but a dream was given.

 

How can we receive without asking?  We can't. If we never ask, we will not receive, well....unless we be like Laman and Lemuel and an angel visits without our asking and we don't listen...ya, major problem -- don't want that.  I am not going to dictate to my Father in heaven, but I will ask, and I will move forward with faith even if not received.

 

I also remember, when I was teaching seminary for special needs and having a rough day/week.  I knelt down and prayed, "Father, I know we are not to ask for a sign, and I am not asking for a sign...well, let me honest, yes I am asking for a sign.  I need to know if I am in the right place and what I am doing is thy will...."  I proceeded to ask for one thing and one thing only.  I ended my prayer, "Father, I know I am not to ask for a sign, please just help me to recognize thy answer when given."  

 

The very next day, the one thing I asked for was given.  If we do not ask, we will not receive, and we need to ask in the right spirit.

 

I appreciate your thoughtful response – especially your experience.  I would ask a question; if you would respond?  Should you receive a dream or vision that conflicts with the dreams or visions of others – not those that hold covenant keys (priesthood leaders) but devout seekers like yourself that claim to have also sought, knocked and asked – do you seek more or another witness or perhaps different symbolism? (See Genesis 41: 25 & 32  “I think”).