Is this a reason to get divorced?

[The Folk Prophet]

..and I would concede that in some extreme cases divorce might be correct option.

 

I happen to know a few Temple Presidents, Mission Presidents, Patriarchs, Stake Presidents and Bishops who's families would have been shattered by divorce if it wasn't for some very patient and understanding wives...and that was pre-plague days. 

 

The idea that pornography addiction would be automatic grounds for divorce, must make Satan very happy.

 

Women who knee-jerk react by castigating, scorning, condemning, emotionally and physically abandoning their husbands for falling are every bit a part of the "pornography problem" as the women depicted in the pictures and video. 

 

I do not agree with this.

[The Folk Prophet]

Oh. Because I'm totally different. If you divorce your spouse for looking at porn, well, that's pretty shallow. I also don't think a marriage should end because of a one time affair either. Again, divorce is just brutal. 

 

You didn't understand me.

[Guest MormonGator]

You didn't understand me.

 Maybe you weren't clear. Your quote was " I am merely saying that if one views porn and their spouse divorces them...well, duh" 

So, because you said that, I disagreed and said "I think that is a shallow reason to divorce."  

Edited January 14, 2016 by MormonGator

[The Folk Prophet]

 Maybe you weren't clear. Your quote was " I am merely saying that if one views porn and their spouse divorces them...well, duh" 

So, because you said that, I disagreed and said "I think that is a shallow reason to divorce."  

 

That's not a disagreement. What I said has nothing to do with whether it's a shallow reason for divorce or not. That's a different issue...which we probably disagree on somewhat...but what I'm saying isn't that. It's don't do the crime if you can't do the time. It's not a statement as to the fairness or rightness of the time. If you wrestle with gators then don't be surprised when you lose an arm.

 

Sin brings about bad things. The question of whether those bad things are shallow or fair or not isn't really on point.

 

I'm also dismayed at how casually men try and treat the sin of pornography viewing in our day. This "it's not that big of a deal" sentiment that is so often seen is shameful at best. But that's not really related to my point either.

 

But on that point -- Why and how is it fair for men to indulge in such depraved infidelity and then have others make comments along the lines that women who are upset by this are as big of problems as porn stars?

 

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! That sentiment is so ridiculous that I can hardly believe it.

 

Whether a woman should divorce a man or not over pornography use is another issue. But the fact remains that the idea of their husbands viewing such filth, to some women, is highly, highly bothersome (and it rightly should be), and that should not be surprising to anyone.

Edited January 14, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[estradling75]

 Maybe you weren't clear. Your quote was " I am merely saying that if one views porn and their spouse divorces them...well, duh" 

So, because you said that, I disagreed and said "I think that is a shallow reason to divorce."  

 

 

It is shallow... but it is not a surprise...

[Guest MormonGator]

That's not a disagreement. What I said has nothing to do with whether it's a shallow reason for divorce or not. That's a different issue...which we probably disagree on somewhat...but what I'm saying isn't that. It's don't do the crime if you can't do the time. It's not a statement as to the fairness or rightness of the time. If you wrestle with gators then don't be surprised when you lose an arm.

 

Sin brings about bad things. The question of whether those bad things are shallow or fair or not isn't really on point.

 

I'm also dismayed at how casually men try and treat the sin of pornography viewing in our day. This "it's not that big of a deal" sentiment that is so often seen is shameful at best. But that's not really related to my point either.

 

Why and how is it fair for men to indulge in such depraved infidelity and then have others make comments along the lines that women who are upset by this are as big of problems as porn stars?

 

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! That sentiment is so ridiculous that I can hardly believe it.

 

Whether a woman should divorce a man or not over pornography use is another issue. But the fact remains that the idea of their husbands viewing such filth, to some women, is highly, highly bothersome (and it rightly should be), and that should not be surprising to anyone.

Great. Thanks for explaining. 

That's the part about "not being clear". I'm just as guilty of this. I'd like to think I'm clear and concise all the time and anyone who misunderstands me-well that's all their fault. But it's also mine. Often times when someone is misunderstood it's on both parties. 

[The Folk Prophet]

It is shallow... but it is not a surprise...

 

Much more simply put than me. But this was exactly what I was saying. (Except for the shallow part. I do not believe it is shallow. I believe it's probably the wrong choice usually. But 'shallow' is unfair.  But that's a different discussion.)

[unixknight]

I'm also dismayed at how casually men try and treat the sin of pornography viewing in our day. This "it's not that big of a deal" sentiment that But on that point -- Why and how is it fair for men to indulge in such depraved infidelity and then have others make comments along the lines that women who are upset by this are as big of problems as porn stars?

 

Nobody has said that women can't be upset by this stuff.  That wasn't the point he made.

 

What's been said, and this may just be another lack of clarity issue, is this (as I understand it):

 

The husband has done damage to the marriage.  A lot of damage.  While he's in the process of recovering, making amends, repenting, etc.  The wife has a choice to make.  She can try to work through her own pain and feelings of betrayal in a constructive way that will help heal the marriage, or she can indulge in recrimination and threats.  The former has the best chance of saving the marriage and both parties.  The latter does a lot of damage as well.

Edited January 15, 2016 by unixknight

[The Folk Prophet]

Nobody has said that women can't be upset by this stuff.  That wasn't the point he made.

 

What's been said, and this may just be another lack of clarity issue, is this (as I understand it):

 

The husband has done damage to the marriage.  A lot of damage.  While he's in the process of recovering, making amends, repenting, etc.  The wife has a choice to make.  She can try to work through her own pain and feelings of betrayal in a constructive way that will help heal the marriage, or she can indulge in recrimination and threats.  The former has the best chance of saving the marriage and both parties.  The latter does a lot of damage as well.

 

If my understanding of what has been said (or implied) was aligned with yours then we have no disagreement. I'm as susceptible to bias in these things as anyone, so I won't go so far as to claim my views of the undercurrents of these discussions is accurate.

 

Of course there have been threads in the past (this one hasn't really gone there...it's just a sense I have about it (perhaps my biases coming through)) where there has been, decidedly, a huge defense of pornography use as not that big of a deal.

Edited January 15, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[unixknight]

 

Of course there have been threads in the past (this one hasn't really gone there...it's just a sense I have about it (perhaps my biases coming through)) where there has been, decidedly, a huge defense of pornography use as not that big of a deal.

 

Yeah I've spent a lot of time thinking about that question myself, and the conclusion that I've come to is that it's a lot easier to lose sight of the magnitude of the problem when it's something one indulges in.  (Like so many other things.) 

 

Is it as severe as actually going out and having a tryst?  No... but then it doesn't have to be that severe to still count as a real problem.  Porn is addictive, it's exploitative and it puts thoughts in our heads that get in the way of our spiritual progress in a big way.

 

I won't go so far as to say porn necessarily leads to affairs, but I wouldn't argue strenuously against that either.  When your head is filled with thoughts and images like that, it can awaken some pretty dark appetites.  Or, depending on how one views these things, it can invite evil spirits to influence one's thinking and actions.  Either way, it's a door that we open at our peril.

[omegaseamaster75]

Hey I'm new to this forum.  This has probably been asked before, but not by me.

 

About 18 months ago I confessed to my wife that I have been viewing pornography on and off for years.  She was understandably angry, hurt, disgusted etc.  She varies between love and kindness towards me or revulsion and anger.  She has discussed me moving out and eventually divorcing many times, at other times she states exactly the opposite.

 

I have been to ARP meetings for the past year, sought individual counseling, professional and through my wonderful bishop.  We even went to marriage counseling together. But since this is my fault/problem she feels she doesn't need to be there.

 

I have made progress and have been able to overcome temptations that have plagued me for years.

 

However, this whole repentance process has had me up and down emotionally.  I have had some serious bouts of depression.  But we have a large family and I don't have time to slow down.

 

I feel that my efforts should be enough for her to stop threatening me with divorce.

So I haven't read all of the responses, Lets take what you are saying at face value, you have admitted to having a problem, have seen a counsler talked to the bishop and are on a path to recovery.

 

Do you have kids? My answer varies based on if you have kids or not.

 

If you don't have kids- Call her bluff and ask her when she is moving out. Seriously she needs to get off of her high horse. Sure you have made mistakes, but we all do and I am sure that she has also. You have recognized those mistakes and are taking steps to heal yourself and your relationship. 

 

If you have kids- See a lawyer find out what your rights are and call her bluff. 

[Windseeker]

Nobody has said that women can't be upset by this stuff.  That wasn't the point he made.

 

What's been said, and this may just be another lack of clarity issue, is this (as I understand it):

 

The husband has done damage to the marriage.  A lot of damage.  While he's in the process of recovering, making amends, repenting, etc.  The wife has a choice to make.  She can try to work through her own pain and feelings of betrayal in a constructive way that will help heal the marriage, or she can indulge in recrimination and threats.  The former has the best chance of saving the marriage and both parties.  The latter does a lot of damage as well.

 

Exactly. The "pornography problem", simply put, is the destruction of the family.

 

No question the lions share of the blame lies with the person who chose to get mired in sin. When a spouse is informed it's completely reasonable, due to it's nature,  that there should be overwhelming feelings of disappointment, rejection and not being good enough. And depending on the depth and degree, divorce may be necessary.

 

Sin could not have been more precisely designed to so perfectly prey on our inherent gender weaknesses and destroy relationships and family than Pornography.

 

My point is the cycle of pain, withdrawal, sin (self comforting) is remarkable and can be partially mitigated with an understanding patient partner or greatly exacerbated and magnified when a partner turtles and seeks vengeance.

 

The wonderful thing is like all sin it's got an achilies heel, thanks to our Savior it can make a supportive spouse a consecrated saint and the vanquisher an exalted victor.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Windseeker

[Latter-Day Marriage]

Hey I'm new to this forum.  This has probably been asked before, but not by me.

 

About 18 months ago I confessed to my wife that I have been viewing pornography on and off for years.  She was understandably angry, hurt, disgusted etc.  She varies between love and kindness towards me or revulsion and anger.  She has discussed me moving out and eventually divorcing many times, at other times she states exactly the opposite.

 

I have been to ARP meetings for the past year, sought individual counseling, professional and through my wonderful bishop.  We even went to marriage counseling together. But since this is my fault/problem she feels she doesn't need to be there.

 

I have made progress and have been able to overcome temptations that have plagued me for years.

 

However, this whole repentance process has had me up and down emotionally.  I have had some serious bouts of depression.  But we have a large family and I don't have time to slow down.

 

I feel that my efforts should be enough for her to stop threatening me with divorce.

 

Even in a case when a spouse cheats and sleeps with somebody else it doesn't automatically make divorce the right choice.  It is a justifiable choice, but not necessarily the best choice and there more a handful of cases where couples have worked though situations like that and gone on to have a happy marriage. 

 

Porn usage is not grounds for excommunication like adultery is, and I would take that to mean that while it is wrong, it is not by itself justification for divorce.  Her talking about about divorce however shows she is DEEPLY hurt by what you have done, and understandably so.  You need to fix what you broke.

 

There is a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation.  Forgiveness is when the person sinned against lets go of their anger and desire to see the sinner punished. It does not require the sinner to do anything although repenting makes it easier for somebody to forgive.  It sounds like she is trying to forgive and struggling with it, same as you are trying to give up porn and struggling with that.  Cut her as much slack on that as you would like her to towards you.  Her hurt feelings are real and valid.  Forgiveness alone doesn't restore the relationship however, that has to be earned.

 

Reconciliation is restoring the relationship to be as good or better than before and it is your job to do that as you are the one who harmed it.  You have to show to her that you fully recognize how wrong you were/are.  She needs to know that your regret is as big as her pain is, you need to come clean about the situation.  You need to make restitution to her in a way that is meaning full her,  stopping is good, but you need to do more than that to make it up to her.  You need to take full responsibility and ask for her forgiveness recognizing that you don't actually deserve to get it and she doesn't owe it to you. And you must never go back to it or you will undo the reconciliation and make things worse than they are now.

 

Healing the marriage includes you getting your behaviour under control AND her working out her hurt so forgiveness and reconciliation can take place.  That makes it both your problem.  I hope you can convince her of that so she will participate. But don't let her lack of participation stop you, prove to her how serious you are by going alone if you have to, but keep asking for her to come along to help you, or to help the marriage or whatever.

 

I'm a little wary of you saying 'I feel that my efforts should be enough for her to stop threatening me with divorce.'  That attitude is not going to help.  I agree she should not be saying that, but you do not get to decide how she feels and what is 'enough' for her to change how she feels.  You need to recognize that she is lashing out in pain when she says things like that.  Respond by trying to soothe her pain, accept responsibility for the situation, apologize again, ask her to help you overcome this and bear with you as you slowly improve.

 

The church put out some really good videos about addiction and recovery that I think you could both benefit from.  The first one is at:

 

Here is a really good Ensign article too.

Repentance and Forgiveness in Marriage

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/09/repentance-and-forgiveness-in-marriage?lang=eng

[JojoBag]

Hey I'm new to this forum.  This has probably been asked before, but not by me.

 

About 18 months ago I confessed to my wife that I have been viewing pornography on and off for years.  She was understandably angry, hurt, disgusted etc.  She varies between love and kindness towards me or revulsion and anger.  She has discussed me moving out and eventually divorcing many times, at other times she states exactly the opposite.

 

I have been to ARP meetings for the past year, sought individual counseling, professional and through my wonderful bishop.  We even went to marriage counseling together. But since this is my fault/problem she feels she doesn't need to be there.

 

I have made progress and have been able to overcome temptations that have plagued me for years.

 

However, this whole repentance process has had me up and down emotionally.  I have had some serious bouts of depression.  But we have a large family and I don't have time to slow down.

 

I feel that my efforts should be enough for her to stop threatening me with divorce.

 

I had a serious problem with porn for nearly five decades. When I finally got clean, it was due in no small part to my wife's support. It was and is essential for any person who has this problem. It is a rare person who overcomes this problem on his own. You need a person to be accountable to; someone who is important to you and spurs you on to do better. That person should be your wife.

 

At the same time, you've got to remember her feelings of betrayal.  It sounds like you want her to just get over it. She is hurt no matter if she shows it or not and trust will be slow in coming. What I learned and had problems with, was learning to shut up and take it. You caused the problem and now you've got to live with the consequences. Every other woman is a threat to her and she will be suspicious of you every time you are in proximity to one.

 

If she is having trust issues, I suspect you are still doing things that are threatening to her. The vast majority of men don't even think twice about looking at other women. If you think this, think again. First off, as a married man, you have no right to look at another woman and admire her beauty. As someone who has a porn problem, it may be seemingly innocent to you, but it is a continuation of your problem. If you watch TV or movies, you will be looking at them, also. Your wife will notice this; she's probably watching you every time you are out together.

 

You simply cannot look around at other women in real life or on TV. I stopped watching TV and movies altogether. Looking around is what Elder Hartman Rector, Jr., called “feeding the evil desire.”

 

When he stops feeding the evil desire, it dies. But of course, what usually happens is that we feed the evil desire just enough to keep it alive and so we keep ourselves in constant turmoil.

Hartman Rector, Jr.

CR, April 1970, Pg. 139

 

 

The other problem that every addict I've ever talked to has, is that they think that they have a distorted idea of what constitutes immodesty. Immodesty is this: if clothing is tight in any way, shape, or form; has a neck line that is too low at all; does not cover the knee when sitting down; or in any way calls attention to the body, it is immodest. Learn what is and isn't modest.