When Friends Ain't Members...


unixknight
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So I live in an area where LDS members are relatively few, so consequently most of the people I know and associate with aren't churchmembers.

 

In my bi-weekly D&D game, I've got about half LDS and half miscellaneous.  For about an hour before each game, people socialize, eat dinner, chat about stuff, prepare for the game session, etc. 

 

Well, last session one of the players was talking about a RiffTrax event he'd attended the night before featuring the movie Starship Troopers.  Apparently it was hilarious to him.  Especially the part about Ft. Joe Smith...

 

For those who don't know, there's a mock newscast in the movie describing a colony of "Mormon radicals" being massacred by the aliens on a distant planet.  It features a futuristic looking colony fort complete with the Angel Moroni on the top of it, and a bunch of mutilated bodies scattered around the place.

 

...I've seen the movie.  It is an objectively bad movie anyway (read the book. It's 10,000% better) so I generally don't sweat stuff like this, but I was feeling dismayed that my friends started a line of joking about how funny it woul dhave been if they'd featured a couple of bodies next to bicycles wearing nametags...  Now, by this point,  the other LDS players hadn't arrived which is probably why this line of "humor" went as far as it did, but I still felt irritated that, for a bunch of people who profess to be all about sensitivity and inclusiveness (yes, there are a couple of bona fide social justice warriors in this group) they felt perfectly at ease with this line of joking in my home in front of me. 

 

The next day I discussed it with one of them (the most reasonable and easygoing of the bunch, and who wasn't involved in that banter) and he agreed that it was inappropriate, and suggested that I let it go this time but be sure to speak up, diplomatically next time.  His advice is good, and I will take it, but I've learned a couple of things, and need some advice for the rest.

 

  • I've learned that I need to be more clear about how serious I am about my beliefs.  Apparently these jokes were told in front of me because I project an air of laid-backness that, while usually good, seems to make people complacent around me in a way that they wouldn't be around my "stricter" LDS friends.
  • I've learned that my desire to avoid "rocking the boat" is a contributing problem because I sometimes fail to speak up when I should around them.

I think the problem goes deeper though.  Maybe I need to re-evaluate who I'm spending my time with.  I hate to cast friends aside, but at the same time if they're so casual about things I find abhorrent, and who knows what they're like when they aren't around me, then maybe I wouldn't be losing much?

 

They're well-meaning people, and don't carry around a bunch of malice (despite the quality of the "humor") which is why we get along so well generally, but sometimes I wonder if I'm just seeing masks.  Was last Friday a fluke, or did I get a glimpse into something that's much more typical?

 

I don't want to be one of those people who refuses to befriend anyone who isn't LDS, but with the political atmosphere around us, and the vastly differing views between some of my friends and me, the strain on the friendship sometimes feel like it's ready to snap.  Should I just cut it off?

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Honestly, I would approach each person involved in the "joke" separately and privately and let them know that the joke offended you. I wouldn't get angry or respond in a harsh way. "Hey, Jack, something happened that has bothered me since. Last week, you joked about Starship Troopers and how it would be funny to have a couple of missionaries dead. I'm a Mormon and I take my faith seriously. I didn't say anything then because frankly I was taken aback. But I wanted you to know that while I can joke about my religion some jokes are just offensive. Please don't do that in the future."  If he apologizes, then just say thank you and move on. If he responds in a negative way, keep your cool and just reiterate what you said.

 

I think their response after this exchange will show more of their character and disposition.  Sometimes, we get caught up in things and don't realize how we sound to others. By keeping it private and congenial, I think shows him you are serious and is a kinder way of confronting it.

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It's up to you who you want to be friends with.

 

I'm the only Mormon in my giant family.  If I cast aside people who offend me or my beliefs, I'll be family-less.  Same with friends - my life-long friends are mostly Catholic.  They all believe I'm going to hell in a hand basket.  It doesn't really bother me.  I give them the freedom to be who they are and I exercise my own freedom to be who I am.  We have lots of things in common that keeps us friends.  My son's best friend in school is an atheist whose parents are lesbians.  They know they don't agree on God and marriage but they share a lot of other things in common.  His friend respects his beliefs and vice versa, that's why it works.  When friends don't respect who you are and who you're trying to become, then it's time to find other friends.

 

As far as Mormon jokes - So there was this one time in jiu-jitsu gym that one of our good friends in the gym was bashing missionaries - laughing at how some dude on youtube "schooled" the missionaries on the Bible.  I guess he forgot I was standing right there - my husband, kids, and I are the only Mormons in that gym.  So, I reminded him matter-of-factly - "I'm Mormon.  You can ask me anything about the Bible."  And that was that.  He quit talking about it and we started talking about jiu-jitsu and a few minutes later, the pall in the air dissipated and we're back to normal again.

 

Unfortunately, you didn't deal with the situation right then and there.  Dealing with it later makes it a bigger deal than necessary and it festers.

Edited by anatess
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Some more subtle approaches (not that I'm generally known for subtlety, but...): How is the area where you play decorated?  Are there churchy pictures on the walls, decorations on the shelves / tables, scriptures, Ensign, or similar books laying out?  Maybe this sort of thing could serve as a subtle reminder.  (Of course, it won't work if they don't notice, but it's a thought.)  I find it easy to recognize some Mormon homes just from their pictures.

 

There's also the question of how often your church activities come up when talking with these friends.  If, when they ask what you did over the weekend / last night, you mention everything but church-related stuff, that could lead them to think church is a "Sunday-only" thing for you, like it is for so many people.  Personally, I found it liberating to give up self-flitering and mention a really good Sunday School lesson or talk.  No one's reacted negatively to that (in my presence) yet.

 

I like Vort's reply for that specific "joke".

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Guest MormonGator

I'm so, so sorry it happened to you. 

I like having friends who disagree with me. It's what friendship is all about. Sure, my close friends basically agree with me on politics, etc. Ironically though my closest friend is a devout Catholic. 

Sometimes I also make LDS/English jokes-even though I'm LDS and English. My friends use the line from Seinfeld on me. "Gator converted just for the jokes!"  (One of my black friends makes great jokes about his own race, so it's all good. Who wants to be around a fussy,thin skinned baby?) 

You are in my prayers. Again, sorry it happened to you. 
 

Edited by MormonGator
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When I moved to Houston from Salt Lake for work, I already new about 4 or 5 people in my new Job. Only one was active LDS and he has since moved back to Utah. The others however all grew up in Utah, some raised LDS others not, but all knew about the church and standards although they do not follow any of it's teachings.  

 

Some of those that I work with that are from Houston and not familiar with the church think of me as highly religious. They know I don't swear, don't drink or smoke, don't drink coffee and that I served a mission. I talk  regularly about the church or church functions as it applies to our conversations as I would with members. Some have even asked me advice concerning questions they have had about the Bible and general moral dilemmas because I am "the most religious person" they know (flattering, but perhaps they do not know many? :)  ). Now those that know me from Utah and are not religious know the same things, but say that I am a "laid back Mormon" or more liberal. Why the contrast? I act the same way around both groups, yet I am labeled by one as strict and highly religious and the other as laid back? I admit that I am very easy to get along with. I correct people about the church when needed, but otherwise try not to stir the pot. Perhaps compared to members of the church they knew from Utah I am not considered strict? I sure thought I was. 

 

I think I come off a little like the OP to those that know me better, as "laid back", although it is not intentional. This post has made me think about that, perhaps time for a self evaluation. 

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Thanks guys.  I appreciate the warm fuzzies.  I think I needed them more than I had realized.

 

How is the area where you play decorated?  Are there churchy pictures on the walls, decorations on the shelves / tables, scriptures, Ensign, or similar books laying out?  Maybe this sort of thing could serve as a subtle reminder.  (Of course, it won't work if they don't notice, but it's a thought.)  I find it easy to recognize some Mormon homes just from their pictures.

 

The room is decorated in a medieval/fantasy style theme with dragons, banners and a decorative suit of armor.  I also display my family's coast of arms and family history.  There are even castles in my aquarium.  There is a book shelf where I have several Church related books and scripture, and right around the corner is a picture of the Washington DC Temple.  There's also a framed bit of art with a quote from the Book of Mormon and a knight, which fits the medieval theme and shows off our Church side as well.

 

I think the idea of approaching everyone individually is best, but I also feel inclined to mix that with my other friend's advice and let this one go, since I should have spoken up sooner.  If it happens again, I'll speak.

 

I think what frustrates me, and I know I should expect this, is that if that movie had featured a colony of dead people under a tattered rainbow flag, these same people would be up in arms. 

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My wife and I get around this by being the first to make the joke about ourselves.  Self-effacing humor - it costs nothing, breaks the ice, eases the tension.  I highly recommend it in situations where the other option is to get offended, or feel like you need to figure out present yourself as something else.

 

Here's a bunch of stories when I'm the only Mormon:

 

I remember when the Olympics came to SLC.  I was in Denver at the time, talking to my dad over the phone at work.  "Yep - the Olympics coming to SLC is the best thing to ever happen to us Mormons.  It's our big chance to prove to everyone that we're not crazy."  I heard a chuckle from a co-worker over the wall, who was in many ways an exact opposite of me and my values.  We got along remarkably well after that phone call, and had a few good discussions about important things.

 

Next job (Colorado Springs) I was in charge of ordering the stuff for the office party. I kept asking people what kind of beer I should order, they kept telling me "you pick" and "just get what you like".  I finally said "Ok, look.  If you let the Mormon pick the beer, we're all gonna end up drinking lime coolaid."   They were immediately concerned that they'd offended me, but when it was obvious that wasn't the case, everything was just fine.  I now had a team of nonMormons that were more protective and supportive of my desires to follow the WoW than I actually was.  

 

Wife had a friend.  One day she found out we were Mormon, and she actually ducked her head and took some steps backwards as if she expected us to attack her or something.  My wife didn't know what to make of it.  Anyway, friend also did petsitting and was taking care of our dogs.  When we got back, friend was very nervous - apparently one of our dogs had gotten out and run around the neighborhood for a few hours, before finally getting caught.  Friend was worried we'd be mad.  My wife got a very serious look on her face, and said "Well, I'm glad you caught her, because it's against our religion for you to lose our dog."  The friend looked sad and anxious for a full three seconds - then it finally dawned on her and she finally laughed and relaxed. 

 

Last story: Going to lunch with a buddy, who is talking about the issues he's had with his church and picking a new pastor.  Stuff like that can divide congregations - folks will break away, attendance will slow or grow, it can mean big changes for people who just wanna go to church.  I said "We Mormons don't really have problems like that - we go from Bishop to Bishop and nothing changes.  We just have a big schism once every 150 years where a bunch of people break away and then a dozen people go to prison for child abuse, and then everything is back to normal."  

 

Stuff like this builds bridges.  It helps.  It opens gates to people's fertile gardens where genuine seeds can get planted.  So much better than getting upset or uptight or offended.  

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It's easy to second-guess and offer hindsight advice.  In reality, your non-reaction may have been the best course.  Who's to say the Holy Spirit was not moving you to bite your tongue?  I agree that it's too late to revisit the incident.  However, if you anticipate it happening again--or something similar--then perhaps, cutting it off near the beginning and saying something like, "Hey...I know lots of those missionary-types.  If you want, I can have a couple call on you?"  :::wink::: :::nod:::  They'll probably laugh, but get the message.

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Friendship is all about disagreeing with people?

Disagreement can be different than just being contentious, it can come from differing perspective, experience, feelings, culture, upbringing, and knowledge. There is nothing wrong with differing world views. (I will admit there are limits to this though)

Edited by Crypto
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Disagreement can be different than just being contentious, it can come from differing perspective, experience, feelings, culture, upbringing, and knowledge. There is nothing wrong with differing world views. (I will admit there are limits to this though)

Yes, this how I see it as well. I enjoy having friends with different ideas, perspectives and experiences than my own. There is much we can learn from people who are different than us.

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I personally wouldn't take offense at that particular joke. They were just trying to add additional realism to the movie.

AFAIK, and I've read most of his books, Heilein was an admirer of the church. He always saw it as a cohesive group standing on the correct side of an issue. I think the writers of the movie (which has the delicious Denise Richards in it) maybe took a little much license,

As for me personally, all my best friends are not members. So take this joking with a grain of salt. I'll give as good as I get in this joking area.

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Disagreement can be different than just being contentious, it can come from differing perspective, experience, feelings, culture, upbringing, and knowledge. There is nothing wrong with differing world views. (I will admit there are limits to this though)

 

But that is not what was said. What was said is that friendship is all about disagreement.

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Sorry this happened to you. This sucks. We were talking about having a dress code at work. One of my colleagues protested and said, "you don't want to look like a bunch of Mormons". Another colleague assured me that Mormons never change their underwear. (My guess is that this has something to do with garments) and that Mormon women are trained not to like sex. His evidence for this? That we have so many children. Non sequitur!

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Sorry this happened to you. This sucks. We were talking about having a dress code at work. One of my colleagues protested and said, "you don't want to look like a bunch of Mormons". Another colleague assured me that Mormons never change their underwear. (My guess is that this has something to do with garments) and that Mormon women are trained not to like sex. His evidence for this? That we have so many children. Non sequitur!

One would think a great many children would suggest a fondness for sex...

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I'm with MrMarklin.  I didn't really have a problem with this particular joke.  You have to take into account the background of the scene in the film.  That would have driven the point home.  But it would have shown some ignorance on the part of the filmmaker which is probably why they didn't do it.  

 

It DID, however, show the ignorance of your friends.  Such a display really wouldn't have made much sense in reality or in the film.

 

On the other hand, I do have to roll my eyes at the profound hypocrisy of such "social justice warriors" taking an attitude such as this.  That is where I might have gone with it.  But that is where social justice takes you -- hypocrisy.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I wouldn't cut anyone off for this.  You allowed it to continue without any expression of uncomfortableness: how are they supposed to know it was offensive.    Maybe you ask each of them if they have any questions about what Mormons actually believe.  That you thought they might have because of what they were saying (though what mormom wouldn't have laughed at the bicycle nametag image).  Or maybe if they do it again, you say, "Guys, would you mind not dissing my faith like that.  I haven't spoken up in the past, and maybe I'm just being thin-skinned, but I find it offensive.  If you want to ask me about Mormonism I'll be happy to tell you why we do whatever you think strange."
"

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