LDS Family Services counselor told me line about "Most important work you can do is in the home" isn't true

[Shoot_The_Moon]

My wife and I have been seeing someone from LDS Family Services for marital issues.

 

During our discussions, the counselor has expressed the following:

 

•  President David O. McKay’s teaching that “No success can compensate for failure in the home...” is not scripture given by a modern day prophet.
• Covenants made in the temple do not dictate responsibilities of the parents in the home.
• A parent’s “season” of their life is not determined first and foremost by the needs of the family and household.
• Self-medicating with things that are not drugs / alcohol / pornography is an acceptable coping mechanism because everyone does it.
• Cleanliness and order in the home is a matter of personal preference, not a duty or obligation
• The various scriptures in the D&C that speak of the Lord’s house being a house of order have to deal with “priesthood order”, and not actually logistical or organizational order / cleanliness, and that when President Kimball said “Whatever your circumstance, let your premises reflect orderliness, beauty, and happiness”, he was talking about a particular period of time and not outlining a timeless principle. (Which is really confusing, because it’s pretty well spelled out here, here, and here).

 

It was my understanding that LDS Family Services counselors are themselves members, and are expected to counsel in a manner that adheres to the mainstream doctrines of the church, not based first on secular ideology or their own opinions that go counter to the doctrines.

 

This person is the only one available in our area, and we would have to travel for hours to see someone else.

 

According to this page, apostasy is " is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine."

 

So ... are they correct?  Should we still be seeing them, or does this qualify as apostasy and something I need to bring up to their supervisor / Priesthood Leader?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Forgive me for asking, but we ate 9nly hearing one side of the story here....are you sure you understood this person correctly? I would be very surprised, for example, to hear any therapist (LDS or not) suggest that self-medicating of any sort is a good idea.

Perhaps there is some serious misunderstanding going on here. How Manu times have you talked with him/her?

[Guest]

Are you asking because you are concerned about bad teaching, or because you want to prove something to your wife? This is a sincere question. 

[yjacket]

Quite simply, if they are teaching things that you believe are out-of-line with the Church (and from what you have said I would agree)- don't see them.

[Guest]

In the interest of giving this counselor the benefit of the doubt, I'd wonder if we're just focusing on the wrong things.

 

The statements as a whole do not seem to contradict the central message of Pres. McKay's axiom.

 

Pres. McKay:  The family is important.  Parents are responsible for rearing their children.  Failure to put one's best efforts into this responsibility is never justified because we had "something more important to do" outside the family.

 

Counselor:  Spending all your time and effort trying to keep the house clean and making sure all your children have every luxury they want, all while forgetting about earning a living or church & civic responsibilities, is not what the gospel teaches.

 

Looking at it from that perspective (again, just trying to give the benefit of the doubt) there is nothing wrong with what he was saying.

 

However, I'm having difficulty with the self-medicating statement.  And I disagree with his temple covenants statement.  "Law of the Gospel".

Edited January 25, 2016 by Guest

[NeuroTypical]

I have to admit, as I read your post, I am getting conflicting mental images here.  Are you the guy demanding clean and orderly from your wife, or are you the guy having a problem with your wife because she tells you you're not clean and orderly enough?  (If neither mental image is correct here, please share with who you are.)

 

 

"President David O. McKay’s teaching that “No success can compensate for failure in the home...” is not scripture given by a modern day prophet."

I don't know what to make of that.  It's true that not everything which proceedeth out of the mouth of a prophet, is scriptural prophecy.  I happen to agree with the teaching, but no, I don't think it's a scriptural statement.  And it makes me wonder about the context of the discussion you were having with the counselor where they'd claim something like that. 

 

 

"Covenants made in the temple do not dictate responsibilities of the parents in the home.

A parent’s “season” of their life is not determined first and foremost by the needs of the family and household."

Yeah, I'm with LiterateParakeet here.  These quotes just beg to hear the other side of the story.  Just not enough info to comment.

 

 

"Self-medicating with things that are not drugs / alcohol / pornography is an acceptable coping mechanism because everyone does it."

Well, you can't really call it "self-medicating" if medication isn't involved, right?  Sounds like a charged term that doesn't belong.  What's the difference between what you're taking issue with, and a coping mechanism or a habit?

 

 

"Cleanliness and order in the home is a matter of personal preference, not a duty or obligation"

I pretty much agree with this statement.  I'm wondering if you'll share more about why you feel it's so totally in opposition to mainstream doctrines of the church, that you hold it forth wondering if you should contact the person's supervisor.  

 

I'd like to hear more about your situation.

Edited January 25, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[yjacket]

"Cleanliness and order in the home is a matter of personal preference, not a duty or obligation"

I pretty much agree with this statement.  I'm wondering if you'll share more about why you feel it's so totally in opposition to mainstream doctrines of the church, that you hold it forth wondering if you should contact the person's supervisor.  

Being clean and orderly is a commandment of God.

D&C 108:

8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;

 

The challenge comes at what level is clean and order, my definition and your definition of clean might be completely different.

Edited January 25, 2016 by yjacket

[Just_A_Guy]

Family life can be an incredibly nuanced thing, and I can easily imagine a family counselor trying to contextualize pretty much all of LDS teachings the OP mentions in a way that I, as a Mormon, would find particularly problematic if a) I were unable or unwilling to pick up on the nuance, or b) I expected to be able to use those LDS teachings as a bludgeon to get my wife to do "her job".

 

I'm reading between the lines here and perhaps making an unwarranted/uncharitable assumption, but . . . It sounds to me like you wanted someone to fix your wife, not your marriage.

 

Family counseling isn't primarily about who's right and who's wrong.  That's what divorce court is for.  And if you spend most of your counseling sessions debating theology with the therapist . . . you're doing it wrong.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

Maybe I didn't understand the OP, but I'm not sure what nuance would make it acceptable to proclaim that usage of pornography is an acceptable coping mechanism.

[Just_A_Guy]

Maybe I didn't understand the OP, but I'm not sure what nuance would make it acceptable to proclaim that usage of pornography is an acceptable coping mechanism.

 

I don't think anyone did.  I think OP claims his therapist says it's OK to self-medicate on things that are not porn, drugs, or alcohol.

[The Folk Prophet]

Also, I think there is a difference between nuanced interpretation of a common LDS teaching and a claim that a common LDS teachings should be disregarded. Once again, I may be misreading the OP, but to claim that a prophet's teaching is not scriptural seems to be implying that we have the right to ignore it entirely because it was just his opinion. It would strike me as decidedly more appropriate to explain the meaning of the words "failure in the home" than to simply imply that it doesn't count. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Carb, and JAG, you both put my feelings into words better than I was able to. Great posts, thanks.

[The Folk Prophet]

I don't think anyone did.  I think OP claims his therapist says it's OK to self-medicate on things that are not porn, drugs, or alcohol.

 

Yeah...I think I misread it.

 

Of course what does it mean then? And what does "everybody does it" have to do with whether it's okay or not?

 

It's okay to self-medicate with some things, reasonably. It'd not okay to overdo it and/or self medicate with other things.

 

Hmm.

[estradling75]

Yeah...I think I misread it.

 

Of course what does it mean then? And what does "everybody does it" have to do with whether it's okay or not?

 

It's okay to self-medicate with some things, reasonably. It'd not okay to overdo it and/or self medicate with other things.

 

Hmm.

 

The first thing to come to my mind is food... aka comfort eating..

[Just_A_Guy]

Also, I think there is a difference between nuanced interpretation of a common LDS teaching and a claim that a common LDS teachings should be disregarded. Once again, I may be misreading the OP, but to claim that a prophet's teaching is not scriptural seems to be implying that we have the right to ignore it entirely because it was just his opinion. It would strike me as decidedly more appropriate to explain the meaning of the words "failure in the home" than to simply imply that it doesn't count. 

 

Sure; but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that that wasn't really the point the counselor was trying to make.  Any counselor worth his salt is going to spend more time asking the husband why he would dare to suggest aloud, to a third party, that his wife is a "failure in the home".

[The Folk Prophet]

Sure; but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that that wasn't really the point the counselor was trying to make.  Any counselor worth his salt is going to spend more time asking the husband why he would dare to suggest aloud, to a third party, that his wife is a "failure in the home".

 

If the OP is, indeed, suggesting that he complained to a counselor that his wife was failing in the home by not keeping it clean...that is ridiculous...but the proper answer from the counselor, either way, should not be to blow off what is very clearly a church teaching,as ignorable, but rather to plainly explain that what is meant by that teaching has nothing to do with sweeping and moping more often, but with the work and the glory of God, which is the salvation of souls.

 

Don't get me wrong. If the OP is really trying to bully his wife into being a better housewife per his views and using twisted LDS concepts to do so through counselling...shame shame. I'm just addressing the thoughts as presented, as I read them...(or, sometimes, misread them.)

[NeedleinA]

This person is the only one available in our area, and we would have to travel for hours to see someone else.

 

 

Sometimes the counselor you "get" (location wise) isn't a perfect fit for you, perhaps a different one would work out better. You are not limited to just the one or having to travel hours away. While not in person, there are LDS Fam. Service Counselors who can meet with you via the internet: Skype, etc. 

 

Also, suppose Skype sessions didn't work for a moment (pretend)...

Is working on/saving your marriage worth driving several hours away? I would hope so. Make a trip of it. See some sights, go on a date with your wife while you are there and go to an extra long session with your new counselor. People drive for sports, camping, events... surely working on your marriage would be a top priority?

 

Finding a counselor you enjoy/trust will be vital to you even caring about what they have to say in the first place. I would never avoid a counselor because they gave you advice you found hard or difficult to swallow. If you (myself included) had all the answers, you wouldn't be at a counselor's office in the first place. You are not looking for someone who simply agrees with you on all points.

 

I'm not taking sides on this subject, you vs. the counselor, just saying there are alternatives.

If this were me, I would be asking myself, "How bad do I want to work on/save my marriage" and then act like I better jump through hoops to get it done.

Edited January 25, 2016 by NeedleinA

[The Folk Prophet]

Of course we don't really know that the OP is doing anything of the sort being presumed. Perhaps his wife is a total slob and it is causing legitimate marital strife and the counselor jumped to all the church doctrine about failure in the home on his/her own.

 

I would, for one, like some clarification from the OP on it.

[yjacket]

Sure; but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that that wasn't really the point the counselor was trying to make.  Any counselor worth his salt is going to spend more time asking the husband why he would dare to suggest aloud, to a third party, that his wife is a "failure in the home".

As TFP stated, it really could be that the wife is a total slob. I know in this new modern age of "enlightenment" the roles of men and women are messed up. But unless they are making a lot of money (enough to hire a maid) someone has to do the cleaning of the house.

 

If both spouses are working then both should have the responsibility to clean up-however if the husband works a full-time job and the wife stays at home then she should probably have the primary responsibility for the upkeep of the house.

 

I would dare say that it is highly likely that the wife doesn't really understand her role completely and I would add the husband doesn't understand his role either; just like a lot of mothers out there (and even some LDS mothers) have absolutely 0 clue as to what it means to actually be a mother. It was very, very eye-opening to me when I went to an awesome parenting class, the man presenting didn't actually spend too much time addressing fathers, 95% of the time he spent focusing on the responsibilities of wives and mothers. I'm a husband first father second, like my wife is my wife first and mother second. The greatest thing I can do for my children is to love my wife.

 

Unfortunately, not taking on and embracing the God-given God-mandated roles in husband and wife has caused more destruction to the family than anything else.

Edited January 26, 2016 by yjacket

[Guest]

... and then there's a little thing called unrighteous dominion. 

[The Folk Prophet]

Hmm. Seems like we sure are all jumping to a lot of judgmental conclusions.

[yjacket]

... and then there's a little thing called unrighteous dominion. 

Certainly . . . I'd like to know where you think there is unrighteous dominion here.

[Guest]

Yes, everyone is. 

[estradling75]

Certainly . . . I'd like to know where you think there is unrighteous dominion here.

 

Its the same kind of wild jump as thinking that the wife is a total slob...  Neither position is supported by the facts so far presented

[Guest]

I can't cite unrighteous dominion specifically from the OP without more information. There are certain attitudes that hint at it.