Healing and Faith


Jojo Bags
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Something I've been contemplating for a few years is why is one person healed of an affliction or illness and another with an affliction or illness is not. In Doctrine and Covenants 42:48 it says, And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.” And, there is another scripture that says, “Require not miracles, except I shall command you, except casting out devils, healing the sick, and against poisonous serpents, and against deadly poisons;” (D&C 24:13)

So, let me ask the same question: Why is one person healed and another is not? I look at my own life and wonder why I was healed of three horrible afflictions all within one year of each other and others are not. I know it seems that it all comes down to faith, but is faith the entire answer? I know that Joseph Smith taught that God will heal whom He will heal. But why one person and not another?

As I contemplated this, I asked myself what was the purpose of afflictions? Some afflictions, both physical and mental, are the result of our own choices, while others are the result of the choices of others. Still, some afflictions seem to be chance and others a result of sin, and still others a result of God allowing Satan to afflict us for some purpose.

I know that some people are not healed because they believe more in doctors than in the priesthood and the healing power of Christ. However, what about those who don't run to the doctor for everything, but do believe and have faith in the healing power of Christ? Why are they not healed? I think the necessary faith to be healed is coupled with what is to be learned from having that affliction by either the afflicted person or someone close to them. Possibly then, if the lesson is learned, then the afflicted person can be healed.

 

 

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I'll add something to your questions.  Why am I personally healed sometimes and not others?  Is there not a Type in this thing?

I've had sins in my life both great and small that were easy for me to shed and change my ways.  I still have some sins in my life both great and small that I find it difficult to shed.  It is important to emphasize that it is not the nature of the sin that is causing difficulty.  I don't know what it is.  But some I can repent of quickly, others are taking years just to make enough headway for me to even notice any improvement.

The Lord gives us all weaknesses severally.  They are in all shapes and sizes and can be physical, spiritual, mental, emotional.  All are there to give us trials and help us grow -- and to keep us humble.

Some sins I'm working on currently, I know will take the rest of my life to fully get over.  Or maybe... just maybe... I can learn to be humble to a sufficient level that I will no longer need to be compelled to be humble because of my sins.  After all humility is an integral part of repentance, and pride is the precursor to almost all sins.

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7 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

So, let me ask the same question: Why is one person healed and another is not? I look at my own life and wonder why I was healed of three horrible afflictions all within one year of each other and others are not. I know it seems that it all comes down to faith, but is faith the entire answer? I know that Joseph Smith taught that God will heal whom He will heal. But why one person and not another?

 

I believe that faith is a component but certainly not the overriding one 

7 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

 

As I contemplated this, I asked myself what was the purpose of afflictions? Some afflictions, both physical and mental, are the result of our own choices, while others are the result of the choices of others. Still, some afflictions seem to be chance and others a result of sin, and still others a result of God allowing Satan to afflict us for some purpose.

 

This came up in another thread. Do you think that Satan causes illness?

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I think all of God's blessings are predicated on faith, obedience and purpose.  We don't handle snakes just because, and we don't tempt God by doing so.  One must have a purpose served by having the affliction healed.  Sometimes not being healed is the will of God and serves a purpose we don't understand.  Job certainly could have benefited from some healing.

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Some things (like illness and accident) are just results of a fallen world, or of other people's choices. It's either mortality or agency; we chose both, and Heavenly Father won't take either experience from us. 

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I think there is a misunderstanding of faith.  Sometimes it is a misunderstanding from those seeking a healing blessing and sometimes it is in those giving such blessings.  Jesus instructed his apostles that sometimes they fail because of lack of their faith.  Sometimes I lack the faith I should have and am surprised that things turn out as well as they do.  I know I often need help with my faith - I have witness of a mountain being moved by the power of the priesthood - but not by me and even though I know it - I still do not have such faith.

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6 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo...

My son and I decided that "Fish fish fish fish" was the same as "buffalo". You can string any positive number of "fish"es together and create a grammatically valid and meaningful sentence.

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15 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

This came up in another thread. Do you think that Satan causes illness?

I'll let you decide after reading a few quotes.

 

Quote

When the Saints moved to Nauvoo or Commerce, as it was then called, it might be called a deserted town, or partly so at least, as there were many empty houses, mostly built of logs and had stood so long that the mud had fallen from the spaces between them.

 

The Saints just driven from Missouri were glad to get such shelter as those old houses would afford, and they were all soon filled, sometimes two and three families in one house. Some houses had no floors, some no doors. Soon the inmates became sick— sickness increased until Joseph began to be alarmed and saw something very unusual in the new affliction. He looked into the matter as only a Seer and Prophet could look. He saw the trouble and where it came from. Those houses had been dens of iniquity. He instituted means to empty them again
by moving the people into tents and doubling up families in better houses. My father's family he took into his own house and tent.

 

I once heard him say concerning houses that had been inhabited by wicked people, that before the Saints moved into them they should be thoroughly cleansed, then fumigated with brimstone and whitewash. Afterward there should be a season of prayer in the house, and it should be dedicated unto the Lord for the use they designed it.

 

Those old houses had been owned or occupied by wicked, unprincipled men, gamblers, outlaws, licentious robbers, etc., and those that were of the same stamp had met there for evil practices and criminal purposes and there carried on their orgies. While this was the pastime or work of men and women in bodies, disembodied spirits of the same ilk stood around in highest glee and in various ways manifested to one another their enjoyment of the performance of the vilest of sins.

When the owners or occupants of the houses were dead, they enjoyed each other's society with their new pals in the spirit state, and when the righteous took possession of their old houses, all combined to kill the new inhabitants, and hence so much sickness—for all evil spirits, whether in the body or out of the body, are opposed to this work and this people, and the spirits in the spirit world have means by which they can affect people on earth, and are as diligent there as here to do good or evil.

O. B. Huntington

The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol. 6, Pg. 467

 

At the end of this time the Prophet rose one day from the table, walked to the door and began vomiting frightfully. Blood and poison came up, and so violent was the retching that his jaw was thrown out of place, and the poison acted so powerfully on him that it loosened his hair. With his own hands he replaced his jaw and then hurried to Bishop Whitney's bed. Bishop Whitney laid his hands upon his head and rebuked the evil power that was afflicting him, and instantly he was completely healed.

But what was to be done now? Bishop Whitney had not yet been able to move his broken leg from the bed, and of course the Prophet would not leave him. He walked into a grove near by to think. About him were fresh graves. He had seen them before, but now he knew what they meant. Suddenly the inspiration of the Lord came upon him and he hurried back to the inn.

The Latter Day Prophet: Young People’s History of Joseph Smith, Pgs. 64-65

Have not devils and fallen angels power? Did they not have mighty power in ancient days? Yes. Could they not smite the earth with plagues, and turn water into blood anciently, as Moses the servant of God did? Yes. Could not the wicked magicians of Egypt perform great signs by casting down their staves, and causing them to appear like serpents, performing great and marvelous things similar to those the Prophet Moses performed?

Masterful Discourses And Writings Of Orson Pratt, Pg. 130

I will relate one circumstance that took place at Far West, in a house that Joseph had purchased, which had been formerly occupied as a public house by some wicked people. A short time after he got into it, one of his children was taken very sick; he laid his hands upon the child, when it got better; as soon as he went out of doors, the child was taken sick again; he again laid his hands upon it, so that it again recovered. This occurred several times, when Joseph inquired of the Lord what it all meant; then he had an open vision, and saw the devil in person, who contended with Joseph, face to face, for some time. He said it was his house, it belonged to him, and Joseph had no right there. Then Joseph rebuked Satan in the name of the Lord, and he departed and touched the child no more.

Life of Heber C. Kimball, Pg. 270

Has the devil power to afflict, and cast the spirit into torment? No! We have gained the ascendancy over him. It is in this world only he has power to cause affliction and sickness, pain and distress, sorrow, anguish, and disappointment; but when we go there, behold! the enemy of Jesus has come to the end of his chain; he has finished his work of torment; he cannot come any further;

Brigham Young

JD 3:95

So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. (Job 2:7)

Hiram B. Clawson and George Q. Cannon were in Washington at the time, and I sent for them. When George Q. Cannon laid his hands upon my daughter’s head, to seal the anointing, wherewith she had been anointed, he made a statement that I have never heard before or since, in all my life, in any prayer. He said, in substance: “The adversary, the destroyer, had decreed your death and made public announcement that you shall die; but by the authority of the priesthood of the Living God, we rebuke the decree of the adversary, and say that you shall live, and not die; that you shall live to become a mother in the Church of Christ.” She did live to become a mother, and in the providences of the Lord her children are the great-grandchildren of the man who held the priesthood of God and gave her that blessing.  

Many Remarkable Cures and Other Instances of God’s Power Attest That His Spirit Attends Church”—Address Delivered in the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday, February 29, 1920, by President Heber J. Grant, Deseret News, April 24, 1920.

The more wicked of these are the kind spoken of in Scripture, as "foul spirits," "unclean spirits," spirits who afflict persons in the flesh, and engender various diseases in the human system. They will sometimes enter human bodies, and will distract them, throw them into fits, cast them into the water, into the fire, etc. They will trouble them with dreams, nightmare, hysterics, fever, etc. They will also deform them in body and in features, by convulsions, cramps, contortions, etc., and will sometimes compel them to utter blasphemies, horrible curses, and even words of other languages. If permitted, they will often cause death.

Elder Parley P. Pratt

Key to the Science of Theology, Pg 110

You will learn that the wicked disembodied spirits have not left this people, though the most of those wicked persons who sought to destroy the Saints have left us.  There are myriads of disembodied evil spirits - those who have long ago laid down their bodies here and in the regions round about, among and around us, and they are trying to make us and our children sick, and are trying to destroy us and to tempt us to evil.

Brigham Young JD 6:73


In spite of the above quotes, Joseph Smith taught that “it was not lawful to teach the Church that all disease is of the devil.” HC 2:147  So, yes, evil spirits cause sickness, but not all sickness is caused by them.

 

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9 hours ago, Traveler said:

I think there is a misunderstanding of faith.  Sometimes it is a misunderstanding from those seeking a healing blessing and sometimes it is in those giving such blessings.  Jesus instructed his apostles that sometimes they fail because of lack of their faith.  Sometimes I lack the faith I should have and am surprised that things turn out as well as they do.  I know I often need help with my faith - I have witness of a mountain being moved by the power of the priesthood - but not by me and even though I know it - I still do not have such faith.

I also think that Christ gave us the answer when speaking to the Apostles after they were unable to cast out an evil spirit from a young boy.  They asked why they could not cast it out and Christ said it was "because of your unbelief"  (Matthew 17:20).  The Apostles had watched Christ perform miracles and thought they could do it themselves, but in spite of believing in Christ, they did not believe Christ.  I think this is the same problem we have today.  People believe in Christ, but they don't believe Christ when he says that he can and will heal them.  They believe in the secular world, in secular science, in secular doctors, in secular learning, in worldly wisdom, but they do not truly believe in the power of the priesthood and that Christ can actually heal them.  It may be that they give lip service to faith.

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On Friday, February 19, 2016 at 1:43 AM, Jojo Bags said:

I also think that Christ gave us the answer when speaking to the Apostles after they were unable to cast out an evil spirit from a young boy.  They asked why they could not cast it out and Christ said it was "because of your unbelief"  (Matthew 17:20).  The Apostles had watched Christ perform miracles and thought they could do it themselves, but in spite of believing in Christ, they did not believe Christ.  I think this is the same problem we have today.  People believe in Christ, but they don't believe Christ when he says that he can and will heal them.  They believe in the secular world, in secular science, in secular doctors, in secular learning, in worldly wisdom, but they do not truly believe in the power of the priesthood and that Christ can actually heal them.  It may be that they give lip service to faith.

Jojo - I have thought on your response and have wondered - is your response a matter of faith and belief that what you have posted is correct or do you have knowledge through experience that validates your conclusions?  As I ponder for myself such things - I begin to have a hard time understanding the difference between knowledge and faith.  When we give a witness by testimony - are such things a matter of faith or are they a result that comes from knowledge?  The expression most often used in testimony is "I know _____" rather than "I have faith that ____" or "I believe in ____" or even "I believe _____"

 

It seems, as I ponder what we know of Christ from scripture, that Jesus operated through knowledge rather than faith - and yet he spoke of faith as though that is the missing element?  I find for myself that my faith grows and becomes stronger by exercising what faith I have.  This correlates with Alma's expression concerning having faith to plant a seed and then faith to nourish the seed – but then Alma even admits that the final fruit of such faith becomes knowledge.  So I wonder if what Jesus was actually saying is that one’s faith has not sufficiently matured to become actual knowledge – which would mean that we need to continue to exercise our faith more to come to knowledge?

 

The problem I have in such discussions is that I am quite sure that my faith has lots of room to grow.  I certainly do not and cannot speak with knowledge or is it sufficient faith?  But there is another problem for me.  As I read and ponder what others (and in this instant – you) say (in particular to what I have posted) – I wonder – Should I have faith in my own ponderings or exercise more faith in what you and others express?

 

And there is another conundrum I face with faith.  It would seem the stronger my faith the more prideful I am of it.  That is the more I think my faith is strong the more I am inclined to think my faith is better than the faith expressed by others.  And then I encounter someone that hardly understands anything – in essence a young child – who hardly knows the differences in believing in something or believing something – or for that matter that they hardly know much of Jesus at all – and their faith seems so much more advanced (stronger) than mine????

 

After all I know, experience or hear from others – when I am faced with a matter of faith – I end up begging G-d for forgiveness that I lack sufficient faith and understanding of such things and pleading for his assistance and help to overcome and get through whatever it is I face.  If I sense G-d it seems my faith holds – if I do not sense G-d or think he has forsaken me – my faith seems to fail – and I wonder -> when Jesus asked the Father, “Why has thou forsaken me”, did his faith fail or was that his greatest expression of all that his faith endured.  And must my faith also so endure?  I am not sure I even want to find out – Oh woe is me of little faith?

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On 2/19/2016 at 0:15 AM, Jojo Bags said:

I'll let you decide after reading a few quotes.

 


In spite of the above quotes, Joseph Smith taught that “it was not lawful to teach the Church that all disease is of the devil.” HC 2:147  So, yes, evil spirits cause sickness, but not all sickness is caused by them.

 

I have decided. Disease is caused by virus and bacteria. Also bad luck aka cancer and other such stuff

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2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I have decided. Disease is caused by virus and bacteria. Also bad luck aka cancer and other such stuff

Are you saying that Satan cannot manipulate and afflict a person with diseases?  If so, how do you explain Job being smitten by boils, which was directly caused by Satan with the permission of God?  Boils are caused by the bacterium Staphylococcus aureus, How also do you explain the statements by a prophet of God?

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1 hour ago, Jojo Bags said:

Are you saying that Satan cannot manipulate and afflict a person with diseases?  If so, how do you explain Job being smitten by boils, which was directly caused by Satan with the permission of God?  Boils are caused by the bacterium Staphylococcus aureus, How also do you explain the statements by a prophet of God?

While I was not present during Jobs affliction, I do know that Satan has not created and cannot create anything (think disease or the causes thereof in your example bacteria). So Satan did not cause Job to become afflicted God did or rather he allowed it.    

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On 18/02/2016 at 8:38 PM, Jojo Bags said:

Something I've been contemplating for a few years is why is one person healed of an affliction or illness and another with an affliction or illness is not. In Doctrine and Covenants 42:48 it says, And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.” And, there is another scripture that says, “Require not miracles, except I shall command you, except casting out devils, healing the sick, and against poisonous serpents, and against deadly poisons;” (D&C 24:13)

So, let me ask the same question: Why is one person healed and another is not? I look at my own life and wonder why I was healed of three horrible afflictions all within one year of each other and others are not. I know it seems that it all comes down to faith, but is faith the entire answer? I know that Joseph Smith taught that God will heal whom He will heal. But why one person and not another?

As I contemplated this, I asked myself what was the purpose of afflictions? Some afflictions, both physical and mental, are the result of our own choices, while others are the result of the choices of others. Still, some afflictions seem to be chance and others a result of sin, and still others a result of God allowing Satan to afflict us for some purpose.

I know that some people are not healed because they believe more in doctors than in the priesthood and the healing power of Christ. However, what about those who don't run to the doctor for everything, but do believe and have faith in the healing power of Christ? Why are they not healed? I think the necessary faith to be healed is coupled with what is to be learned from having that affliction by either the afflicted person or someone close to them. Possibly then, if the lesson is learned, then the afflicted person can be healed.

 

 

I'm usually quite cautious about asking "why' questions because it seems to me that whatever the answer to the why question might be, it should not change the way we are supposed to be living. The principles of righteous living and obedience, and what we need to do to gain salvation are the same for all people, all the time, regardless of our individual circumstances. If I am not healed because I lack faith, that fact in no way should increase or lessen what should be my already diligent efforts to increase my faith. Whatever the reason for something happening, or not happening, if it is a bad thing, it should already be the case that I am not doing it, and if it is a good thing, it is already the case that I should be doing it, so whatever the reason is, it should not change what I am already doing or not doing. We should be striving to live the gospel to the best of our ability regardless of what happens or why it happens. 

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6 hours ago, Traveler said:

Jojo - I have thought on your response and have wondered - is your response a matter of faith and belief that what you have posted is correct or do you have knowledge through experience that validates your conclusions?  As I ponder for myself such things - I begin to have a hard time understanding the difference between knowledge and faith.  When we give a witness by testimony - are such things a matter of faith or are they a result that comes from knowledge?  The expression most often used in testimony is "I know _____" rather than "I have faith that ____" or "I believe in ____" or even "I believe _____"

 

 

 

It seems, as I ponder what we know of Christ from scripture, that Jesus operated through knowledge rather than faith - and yet he spoke of faith as though that is the missing element?  I find for myself that my faith grows and becomes stronger by exercising what faith I have.  This correlates with Alma's expression concerning having faith to plant a seed and then faith to nourish the seed – but then Alma even admits that the final fruit of such faith becomes knowledge.  So I wonder if what Jesus was actually saying is that one’s faith has not sufficiently matured to become actual knowledge – which would mean that we need to continue to exercise our faith more to come to knowledge?

 

 

 

The problem I have in such discussions is that I am quite sure that my faith has lots of room to grow.  I certainly do not and cannot speak with knowledge or is it sufficient faith?  But there is another problem for me.  As I read and ponder what others (and in this instant – you) say (in particular to what I have posted) – I wonder – Should I have faith in my own ponderings or exercise more faith in what you and others express?

 

 

 

And there is another conundrum I face with faith.  It would seem the stronger my faith the more prideful I am of it.  That is the more I think my faith is strong the more I am inclined to think my faith is better than the faith expressed by others.  And then I encounter someone that hardly understands anything – in essence a young child – who hardly knows the differences in believing in something or believing something – or for that matter that they hardly know much of Jesus at all – and their faith seems so much more advanced (stronger) than mine????

 

 

 

After all I know, experience or hear from others – when I am faced with a matter of faith – I end up begging G-d for forgiveness that I lack sufficient faith and understanding of such things and pleading for his assistance and help to overcome and get through whatever it is I face.  If I sense G-d it seems my faith holds – if I do not sense G-d or think he has forsaken me – my faith seems to fail – and I wonder -> when Jesus asked the Father, “Why has thou forsaken me”, did his faith fail or was that his greatest expression of all that his faith endured.  And must my faith also so endure?  I am not sure I even want to find out – Oh woe is me of little faith?

 

I was healed from three horrible afflictions, two of which were of a more gradual, line upon line type healing. It was a process of persistence, enduring, and learning. The healing from depression was rapid, but still took a few weeks. That came of knowledge and understanding of the causes of the affliction confirmed through the Holy Spirit, then a total change of perspective obtained through the Atonement.

The withdrawal from drug addiction was, well, hell on earth. I cannot begin to adequately explain what that was like. If you've ever had an anxiety attack, take that and multiply it by ten, then cube it and you might approach what type of anxiety level you go through when the withdrawal is at its peak. I prayed about every ten seconds for the strength to endure it, interspersed with the desire to die. As it ebbed and finally retreated, I then went through the post acute withdrawal phase. That was almost as bad and the worst of it took several months to mostly leave my body. However, I was supported through the entire process by the Holy Spirit.

The healing from porn addiction was instantaneous. I walked into the bishop's office an addict and left healed, but with a lot of re-learning to do. I had been possessed by several evil spirits, which my wife had discerned. I didn't believe her for many months and fought her on it. However, after my final relapse, I began to wonder and maybe even believe her a bit. I told her everything then went to my bishop and confessed everything. I then told him my wife thought I was possessed by evil spirits and I wanted him to cast them out of me. He laid his hands on my head and commanded them to leave. I felt them leave me. It was like a boiling, churning, angry bee hive that was then forcibly expelled from mmy body. I left his office no longer an addict. I was left with some bad habits, but without the influence of the evil spirits, I overcame them through correct knowledge and understanding.

I have pondered these miracles and wondered why I was healed while others struggle with these type of afflictions till the day they die. I've think there were a few reasons why I was healed. I learned the lesson I was supposed to learn. With the depression I learned to face my past, talk about it and put it in its proper perspective. I also left the circumstances that were contributing to it. With the drug addiction, I also learned to change my perspective because the addiction and depression were linked. I also learned to never, ever become addicted and that drugs are not the way to feel good. With the healing from porn addiction, I went to my bishop with the mindset that if I were truly possessed, I expected my bishop to actually cast out the evil spirits. I think that my expectation was part of my faith and a part of all faith when it comes to healing. I believed that Christ would heal me.

I talked this over with my wife. I think you're confusing knowledge and belief; they are two different things. True knowledge consists of facts that stand alone and are indisputable. A person may deny facts, but that doesn't make them any less true. That is where their belief comes in. A person's belief can be erroneous through the misinterpretation or outright denial of facts that conflict with their worldview and “understanding.”

I think that when they bear their testimonies, some LDS say they “know” when they only “believe.” When it comes to “knowledge” that the church is true, when belief and faith go the next step, it takes some type of spiritual experience that gives them an indisputable confirmation of facts. At the same time, this indisputable confirmation of facts isn't always enough to create a conversion to the truth.

While on my mission, one of the things I asked investigators was: “What is more sure: to be convinced or to be converted?” Being convinced - “belief” - implies an intellectual agreement that something is true. Being converted goes beyond that; it comes through understanding of knowledge confirmed through the Holy Spirit that something is true and creates a committment to action. Thus, being converted becomes intelligence, as in “the glory of God is intelligence.” We have those who stand up and say “I know the church is true,” but lack the conversion, the committment to action.

It's interesting that you should talk about Christ operating through knowledge rather than faith. In Lecture Second in the Lectures On Faith, it talks about God, “who has faith in himself, independently.” God is God because he has all knowledge, yet he has faith in himself. I don't quite understand it all, but other things I've read talk about how we need to have faith in ourselves when using the priesthood. Based on Lecture Second, it seems that faith and knowledge are intertwined.

I've always said that pride is Satan's answer to faith. Pride means that you are relying on the arm of the flesh. Someone with pride gives credit to himself. Faith requires you to rely on the arm of God and you acknowledge that without God you are nothing. Faith allows you to give all credit to God. A child lacks pride, is teachable, and automatically acknowledges that someone is superior to themselves; hence their faith is perfect.

I'm sure I don't have it all right, but this is a work in progress.

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51 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

While I was not present during Jobs affliction, I do know that Satan has not created and cannot create anything (think disease or the causes thereof in your example bacteria). So Satan did not cause Job to become afflicted God did or rather he allowed it.    

I never did say that Satan created anything.  I do not believe he has that power.  What I did say was that he manipulated and afflicts; not the same thing as create.  Again, how do you explain the scripture in Job's case?

Quote

And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

¶ So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

(Job 2:3–7)

God allowed it, but Satan performed the act of smiting Job with boils.  How did he do that?  What about the magicians in the court of Pharaoh?  Through the power of the Devil, they duplicated some of Moses' miracles: the rod turning into the snake and turning water into blood.  How was this accomplished?  Either the scriptures are accurate or they are not.

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42 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

While I was not present during Jobs affliction, I do know that Satan has not created and cannot create anything (think disease or the causes thereof in your example bacteria). So Satan did not cause Job to become afflicted God did or rather he allowed it.    

So, first, acknowledging that we're clueless, let's look at the possibilities.  All of them start with: Satan wants to prove he can drag Job down to Hell and God agrees to let him try.

1) But Satan doesn't have the power, so every time he (Satan) comes up with another evil to try, God agrees to cause the planned affliction.

That doesn't sound right to me.  Let's try number 2.

2) Satan doesn't have the power himself, but the only thing stopping Job from getting boils (for example) is God forbidding Staph. aureus (or whatever) from infecting Job, so, per Satan's plan, God gets out of the way and tells some nearby Staph. aureus it can do its thing, but only to Job.

That doesn't sound right to me either (though I like it better than #1).  Moving on.

3) Staph. aureus and Satan are good friends (both being kinda slimy), even though Satan has no power over said Staph., so once God gives the OK, Satan coaxes some of his Staph buddies into attacking Job (ala "Don't worry, God has agreed to stay out of it.").

Still doesn't sound terribly believable, but what do I know?

4) Satan has power after all, but can only use it in ways God allows.  So, once God has told Satan that he (Satan) is allowed to try the proposed affliction, Satan has power to cause it (but only to the specified extent).

Quote

Job 1:12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.

Job 2:And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

That doesn't sound terribly out of the realm of what we know to be true, and I see no reason to disbelieve scripture.

5) Satan knew ahead of time that all these afflictions were going to naturally happen and he was just pretending to ask permission and be the cause (cuz he has delusions of grandeur).

I suppose.

6) The myriad convolutions that won't occur to me until 2am or the next time I take a shower.

Personally, I think Job was a very special case and that what happened there is not what normally happens to the rest of us.  I suspect that the causes of our afflictions are generally the things we all can easily recognize: mortality and agency (ours and others').  Obviously, the Lord allows these things to happen, but that's not the same as actively planning and causing them (though I won't totally discount the possibility, esp. not in all cases); and sometimes he chooses to let them go on, other times he chooses to stop them or cut them short, all for his own reasons.

But I'll go back to where I started: we're (mostly) clueless (especially when it comes to specific instances).  I don't think the origins of our afflictions matter so much as what we're supposed to learn from the experience (whether we're supposed to learn to wash our hands or to be humble, or whatever).

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2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I do know that Satan has not created and cannot create anything 

This is just a word game. I don't think it has any underlying meaning. Satan creates confusion, hatred, rebellion, discord. Moreover, he creates ideas -- wrong ideas. Cain was called the father of Satan's lies, because Cain brought Satan's lies into being. But those lies were created "spiritually" by Satan before Cain created them "physically".

Saying that Satan cannot create anything gratifies our minds somehow, and it seems like it must be true in a philosophical sense. But philosophy is all about word definitions. Saying "Satan doesn't create anything" is poorly defined; by most definitions, it's false. So we should not be too quick to glom into it and build our philosophical and (especially) religious or spiritual constructs on such a shifting foundation.

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