How great of a sin is debt?

[NightSG]

34 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Seriously you are going to scare even me away from used cars.  AAA always comes and changes my tire, jumps my battery when I leave the lights on, and unlocks my door (when the keys are inside) in an hour or less.

Tire changes aren't that bad with a good floor jack and a 4-way wrench.  I'm under 9 minutes for a roadside one last time I did it, (from full stop to moving again) and even brand new cars get flats at pretty much the same rate as older ones that get proper maintenance.  Jumper packs are cheap, handy for other things, (air compressor, light, portable USB power source) and take less than five minutes to use.  A spare key is what, $2?  I usually leave myself 10-20 minutes of leeway on trips beyond the local area, which will cover any of the above, but not a 30+ minute wait for AAA to find me.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

8 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Tire changes aren't that bad with a good floor jack and a 4-way wrench.  I'm under 9 minutes for a roadside one last time I did it, (from full stop to moving again) and even brand new cars get flats at pretty much the same rate as older ones that get proper maintenance.  Jumper packs are cheap, handy for other things, (air compressor, light, portable USB power source) and take less than five minutes to use.  A spare key is what, $2?  I usually leave myself 10-20 minutes of leeway on trips beyond the local area, which will cover any of the above, but not a 30+ minute wait for AAA to find me.

LOL, that is so not something I'm willing to do.  But it sounds like you have a passion for it. I wish you lived closer, I'd hire you.

[Guest]

Dave Ramsey is all about two things:

1. AVOID DEBT LIKE THE PLAGUE.  If you're already in debt, getting out of debt should be your #1 priority after living expenses.  He has a five step process which includes emergency funds, etc.
2. Biblical advice on money and finance.  He constantly quotes the verse "The borrower is slave to the lender".  So stop being a slave.

The catch phrase about Dave is that it is the financial advice your grandfather would have given you if he knew about money.  If he said avoid debt and the prophet said go into debt, I'd have a difficult time choosing.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Guest

[beefche]

I've read Suze Orman and Dave Ramsey among others. What I found that worked for me was to take the advice that I found helpful and apply my own plan for debt reduction/elimination and savings. One of the best pieces of advice (and I think it comes from Dave) is while you are reducing debt, do not ignore savings. Even if you save very little, save something. He compared it to a business. A company has budgets/plans for expenses and marketing but also has budget/plan for saving costs or making money. It made complete sense to me that while I may think putting that extra $10 a paycheck towards debt, it's better to save that and use it in an emergency situation to avoid future debt. 

[Vort]

21 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Tire changes aren't that bad with a good floor jack and a 4-way wrench.  I'm under 9 minutes for a roadside one last time I did it, (from full stop to moving again)

My best is four minutes. Time me.

 

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Dave Ramsey is all about two things:

1. AVOID DEBT LIKE THE PLAGUE.  If you're already in debt, getting out of debt should be your #1 priority after living expenses.  He has a five step process which includes emergency funds, etc.
2. Biblical advice on money and finance.  He constantly quotes the verse "The borrower is slave to the lender".  So stop being a slave.

The catch phrase about Dave is that it is the financial advice your grandfather would have given you if he knew about money.  If he said avoid debt and the prophet said go into debt, I'd have a difficult time choosing.

So if I've already learned the debt lesson the hard way (and now have no credit card debt).....should I still read him for the Grandfatherly financial advice?

Oh wait! I should totally read him, if not for me, so I can give my kids sound financial advice. Okay, you sold me.

[Vort]

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The catch phrase about Dave is that it is the financial advice your grandfather would have given you if he knew about money.  If he said avoid debt and the prophet said go into debt, I'd have a difficult time choosing.

Sorry to be a killjoy and give a serious answer to a hyperbolic statement, but I wouldn't.

[Guest]

If you still have a mortgage, you should read him.  He totally says that average people can buy houses without a mortgage.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Sorry to be a killjoy and give a serious answer to a hyperbolic statement, but I wouldn't.

Yup, killjoy.  Yup hyperbolic.

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, beefche said:

II won't buy a beater. I don't mind buying used, but a beater car means (to me) that I can expect car troubles and I refuse to deal with it breaking down and then having to get it towed, finding a trusted mechanic, etc. Again, I don't mind it being used but if I know that it's a true beater, I'm not gonna do it. I'll let ya'll car people have at 'em.

"Beater" doesn't necessarily mean it's high maintenance.  It can mean more like a non-racing version of a sleeper; mechanically sound but generally hideously ugly.  That's about the point my $700 Saturn was getting to; it needed a gasket kit, but not badly enough to be urgent yet, (a quart of oil every 1000 miles, no coolant loss on open road, though the fan needed replacing as it would boil over if stuck in traffic for 15-20 minutes) and aside from the spark plug failure, had gone about 15,000 miles since the last needed repair.

Even a fixer upper done well, by someone who takes pride in their work, can go for years between major repairs.

[NightSG]

58 minutes ago, Vort said:

My best is four minutes. Time me.

I can do that in the shop, but on the roadside, I have to count in shuffling other tools and parts around to get to the spare and jack.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

the prophet said go into debt, I'd have a difficult time choosing.

I pay my tithing and stuff but I wouldn't go into massive debt. That is a sacrifice of your families safety and security. You have an obligation to the church, but you have an obligation to your family too.  But it's your money, so go for it. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by MormonGator

[Backroads]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Backroads, I may or may not agree with you depending on the details.  I've probably spent more time being poor and poorer than anyone on this board (that I'm aware of).  But I was willing to put that time in to make a brighter future.  I would applaud others for doing so.

While I also understand the responsibility for our children, we all need to be allowed to make those judgments for ourselves.  Only in the most extreme cases would I judge someone else and say they've gone too far--which is what you appear to be saying.  But if it really is that extreme in the cases you're referring to, I might be inclined to agree with you.

 

 

And, in my view, it's a pretty extreme example and not a good living situation at all. At some point, you need to hurry and get your diploma for a better-paying job or scrap the school idea and seek out another better-paying job.

Does staying out of debt really trump taking care of your family?

Now, if it were a single person or even a married childless couple, I'd say go for it. Live in a tent eating ramen and tell me all your funny/horrific stories about your determination to pay for school without any debt, but once you drag a bunch of kids into it, you need to take care of them. Don't starve your kids so you can work minimum wage forever.

Because that is not giving anyone a brighter future. A brighter future would be an actual reachable goal.

[Backroads]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If you still have a mortgage, you should read him.  He totally says that average people can buy houses without a mortgage.

 

And it's true, but... our house payment is cheaper than most rent in the area. We could take our minimum mortgage payment to any lousy one-bedroom apartment and not save a dime. We could rent for the same price and save for a house mortgage-free but... why?

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, Backroads said:

 

And it's true, but... our house payment is cheaper than most rent in the area. We could take our minimum mortgage payment to any lousy one-bedroom apartment and not save a dime. We could rent for the same price and save for a house mortgage-free but... why?

You are also investing in your future. It's what your grandfather used to say, but it's true-when you retire the LAST thing you want is a mortgage. 

[Backroads]

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You are also investing in your future. It's what your grandfather used to say, but it's true-when you retire the LAST thing you want is a mortgage. 

It just seems silly to pay in rent and then more on some future house plan when I can just pay my cheap mortgage and put the extra money to other use... like... the mortgage.

[mrmarklin]

On February 18, 2016 at 8:21 AM, omegaseamaster75 said:

I don't like car debt either but who pays 35-50k cash for a vehicle that's just silly. Your throwing upwards of a third or more away in depreciation. There are much, much better investments than a car. So make your cash work for you and make a car payment.

Debt is a valuable tool, handled properly.  Today's rates are especially attractive for automobiles and real estate.

 

i would never pay cash for a vehicle in today's environment of sub three percent interest.  It would be stupid to pay cash in today's investment environment where one can easily make more than that.

Similar with housing, although here in the SFBay area, the market is very overheated right now.  One must be cautious.

 

Consumer debt is of course to be avoided for non necessities. 

Business debt is probably beyond the scope of this discussion, but used wisely is the basis of all modern business,

 

no, debt is certainly not a sin. The Church's counsel is wise:. Avoid consumer debt. 

Edited February 20, 2016 by mrmarklin

[mrmarklin]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

If you still have a mortgage, you should read him.  He totally says that average people can buy houses without a mortgage.

Not in SF Bay Area. 

 

Average earners are are renters here. One bedroom apartments rent for $4,000 or more in SF.

Not a lot better in other cheaper areas.  Rent can suck up a lot of ones disposable income.

Edited February 20, 2016 by mrmarklin

[mrmarklin]

I answered without reading all the posts.

i had to smile a little.

I see that I live on a different plane than most of you.  One thousand dollar cars?  My payment is $1,252 per month!  You can only imagine the insurance and maintenance on a vehicle like this. No, I don't do my own repairs. Actually, I changed the air filter once.  $85 for the filter.  Labor was free!

I wont embarass myself  by discussing my housing costs. 

 

But.......no consumer debt.

Edited February 20, 2016 by mrmarklin
Clarity

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

6 hours ago, Backroads said:

And, in my view, it's a pretty extreme example and not a good living situation at all. At some point, you need to hurry and get your diploma for a better-paying job or scrap the school idea and seek out another better-paying job.

I agree with this!  Some people manage to do quite well without a degree.  

[Traveler]

It is getting close to that time of year when we all do our taxes.  I have an accountant that does mine.  Recently, talking to my accountant he relayed several stories of good LDS families that sacrificed for education.  It seems that several, otherwise wealthy families engaged in cosigning for their children for student loans (because in days past the Church has stressed education and the consideration of debt for education) and recently have lost in essence everything including their homes along with their retirement savings – 401K’s, pensions and even their Social Security and tax returns has been garnished.  All this to obtain education at what we call prestigious institutions of learning.

I have had in my library an interesting book titled “The Richest Man in Babylon”.   However, this particular book seems to disappear as I loan it and it never comes back – though I have replaced it a number of times.  The author (I forget his name) compares debt to eating one’s own children.  In essence he says that whatever excuse we think is mitigated by debt that such argument would be realized as ridiculous by trying to justify such things through eating our own children for the same reasons.  His advice, he says, may seem harsh but is because debt turns our loved one’s (children) from cherished assets into worrisome liabilities. I wonder if debt has now gone beyond eating our children to eating our parents.  And I would add that debt also turns our hearts from helping the widows and fatherless to just trying to survive ourselves.  It turns the richness and joy of honest labor into the bitter drudgery of slavery.

From a religious standpoint one cannot live the divine law of consecration while serving debt and must repent of all debt before actually and honestly entering into that covenant.  Keep in mind that I have also advised the difference between a debt and an investment – in that debt is contracting an agreement to pay more for something than it is worth.  An investment is holding onto something that is worth more than what is left to pay it off.

Our society have crafted very cleaver schemes to deceive individuals into entering into contracts that will require that they pay more for things than they are actually worth.  I have a daughter and her and her family have learned the bitter lesson and now are somewhat resigned that their bitter lesson will exclude them from ever owing a house of their own.  It is sad but their debt has turned them bitter towards many good things – including the church and even their siblings that are all able to purchase homes that seem to my daughter to be exorbitant luxuries.   Their debt has made other necessary expenditures to be added to their debt as health issues for one particular child has added to their debt comparable to perching a home (which my wife and I have decided to make sacrifices ourselves to assist in their medical costs).

And debt does not go away because we are sorry.  We cannot repent of debt with tears but only with the labor and drudgery of a slave and pray than our debtors, neighbors and friends will have mercy and make sacrifices themselves for our errors because we have not sufficient to pay or debts.  Even G-d compares his forgiveness of our sins to the forgiveness of forgiving someone of their debts that have become such a burden that they cannot pay enough.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

34 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is getting close to that time of year when we all do our taxes.  I have an accountant that does mine.  Recently, talking to my accountant he relayed several stories of good LDS families that sacrificed for education.  It seems that several, otherwise wealthy families engaged in cosigning for their children for student loans (because in days past the Church has stressed education and the consideration of debt for education) and recently have lost in essence everything including their homes along with their retirement savings – 401K’s, pensions and even their Social Security and tax returns has been garnished. 

 

I agreed with your whole post; I just truncated it for brevity sake.

What you said at the end about being sorry doesn't erase debt. So true.  My hubby and I racked up much of our credit card debt for emergencies  (I mean food, diapers, gas...when times were lean).  When things got a little better we got into one of those debt repayment programs and were halfway to being out of debt when financial disaster struck us...it was the last straw financially.  

As we sunk into bankruptcy and fore closure, I wondered "where is our tithing blessing"? Later, I understood that I re5could not expect the Lord to bless me financially when I had ignoredone His counsel about debt. It's a hard lesson for sure.

Now we're 10 yrs with no debt except for a mortgage.  There should be a "chip" like AA for that, Lol.  Ten years financial sobriety.  The reason I mention our 10 years is to make the point that it can be done. I've even rented cars, bought airline tickets, and stayed in hotels without a credit card. You seriously don't need one.

I also agree that business debt is something different than what we are discussing here.

[Traveler]

19 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agreed with your whole post; I just truncated it for brevity sake.

What you said at the end about being sorry doesn't erase debt. So true.  My hubby and I racked up much of our credit card debt for emergencies  (I mean food, diapers, gas...when times were lean).  When things got a little better we got into one of those debt repayment programs and were halfway to being out of debt when financial disaster struck us...it was the last straw financially.

As we sunk into bankruptcy and fore closure, I wondered "where is our tithing blessing"? Later, I understood that I re5could not expect the Lord to bless me financially when I had ignoredone His counsel about debt. It's a hard lesson for sure.

Now we're 10 yrs with no debt except for a mortgage.  There should be a "chip" like AA for that, Lol.  Ten years financial sobriety.  The reason I mention our 10 years is to make the point that it can be done. I've even rented cars, bought airline tickets, and stayed in hotels without a credit card. You seriously don't need one.

I also agree that business debt is something different than what we are discussing here.

Thank you for your response – often I wonder who is greater (prodigal son verses the older brother) the one who has strayed, come to their senses, repents and become humble willing to accept whatever friendship remains or the one that never strays.  More and more as I become increasingly knowledgeable of those that have found a way out of debt by changing forever their lifestyle and life choices – or those that have never become so converted because it was not really necessary.  I am inclined to think you are greater than me and I honor your lessons learned.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Thanks Traveler, that is very kind of you.

[omegaseamaster75]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I also agree that business debt is something different than what we are discussing here.

Please explain. I can assure that whatever you think is bad business debt is most likely incorrect.

Edited February 20, 2016 by omegaseamaster75