"Christians" obtaining the Celestial Kingdom


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My ex-Mormon friend and I were having a discussion in which I happened to mention a man I knew years ago who was the epitome of "a good person" as we in our Judeo-Christian American culture tend to think of people.  He really was inspiring, kind, hard working, and helpful... I could quote the Boy Scout Law.  I continued a bit on how wonderful he was.  My friend then reacted with a sideways comment: Yup, exactly the kind of person who'll go straight to the Terrestrial Kingdom.  He really tries hard not to be bitter about his leaving the Church.  But it just comes out sometimes.

My response was that I really believed a man such as he will go to the Celestial Kingdom.  It is just that he hasn't been presented the Gospel in a manner that would let the Spirit touch him.  I, myself, was not the right missionary for him (though I tried).  In the next life I'm sure he'll be given that opportunity and he'll accept.  We had a short exchange about it.  But we returned to the original conversation.  

So, my question for the forum is: What are your thoughts on people that appear to be very good by earthly standards, but don't accept the Gospel here as it is presented to them?

 

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32 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, my question for the forum is: What are your thoughts on people that appear to be very good by earthly standards, but don't accept the Gospel here as it is presented to them?

 

I share your opinion. Time, opportunity and willingness to accept does not always occur in this life. He will have his chance.

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A. That's really a question between the man, his own agency, and God.

B. How can we surmise if a man or woman will or will not accept the gospel and the ordinances thereof or not?

C. If one does not accept such then the comment made by your friend sounds accurate. That's pretty much the exact description of those who will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

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Great question. I unfortunately don't have an answer since I'm unaware of the standard that is required to qualify as "your chance to hear the gospel". 
Does a 15 minute door conversation with the missionaries count?
Does a 3 hr meeting count? A 3 week visit? I simply do not know what qualifies as, "you had your chance on earth" scenario. 

My understanding is that when people pass onto the spirit world, though their surroundings/circumstances have changed, that doesn't necessarily mean they will be more inclined to listen to the gospel then they were before. Maybe their teachers might be more "advanced"? Maybe hearing the lessons a second time might really click. Example.

Missionary in Spirit World: "Hey, Carb's friend, remember when Carb shared with you about the spirit world? Well, um, he was right, here you are!". Perhaps those that have heard some on earth might see things actually coming to pass and be more inclined to listen a second time??

Really... what do I know? Honestly, I'm just guessing since I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. Off to preform surgery...

Edited by NeedleinA
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There was an article I read recently that was posted on facebook by someone I know who's struggling that was talking about how Mormons believe in a "sad heaven" because we think that our loved ones who don't stay faithful will be separated from us. The article was so full of half truths and subtle twistings of the doctrines and principles that it made me sick. There is such an insidious undercurrent running through the church culture right now based on this strange idea that we mortals know how to love better than God does. It's a simple matter of faith. God is just. And for some reason it becomes extremely difficult for some to trust in that. Just means fair. God will be fair. But trusting in that doesn't mean casting off other truths He has given us, like the need for baptism, obedience, repentance, etc. 

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11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Mormons believe in a "sad heaven" because we think that our loved ones who don't stay faithful will be separated from us. 

Hum...perhaps the real "happy heaven" others speak of involves the belief that all marriages and families are dissolved in heaven automatically.
Yah, that sounds happier to me.<_<

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10 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Hum...perhaps the real "happy heaven" others speak of involves the belief that all marriages and families are dissolved in heaven automatically.
Yah, that sounds happier to me.<_<

I think the philosophy is more along the lines of mercy should save everyone because of...you know...love.

Save everyone...hmm... Who's philosophy was that originally? 

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54 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There was an article I read recently that was posted on facebook by someone I know who's struggling that was talking about how Mormons believe in a "sad heaven" because we think that our loved ones who don't stay faithful will be separated from us. The article was so full of half truths and subtle twistings of the doctrines and principles that it made me sick. There is such an insidious undercurrent running through the church culture right now based on this strange idea that we mortals know how to love better than God does. It's a simple matter of faith. God is just. And for some reason it becomes extremely difficult for some to trust in that. Just means fair. God will be fair. But trusting in that doesn't mean casting off other truths He has given us, like the need for baptism, obedience, repentance, etc. 

What TFP said...emphasis added by me....

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There was an article I read recently that was posted on facebook by someone I know who's struggling that was talking about how Mormons believe in a "sad heaven" because we think that our loved ones who don't stay faithful will be separated from us. The article was so full of half truths and subtle twistings of the doctrines and principles that it made me sick. There is such an insidious undercurrent running through the church culture right now based on this strange idea that we mortals know how to love better than God does. It's a simple matter of faith. God is just. And for some reason it becomes extremely difficult for some to trust in that. Just means fair. God will be fair. But trusting in that doesn't mean casting off other truths He has given us, like the need for baptism, obedience, repentance, etc. 

 

As someone who has this situation in real life, I can tell you that my testimony took a hit when seeing the reality of this in my life. It was very, VERY difficult to imagine eternal life without the one I adore by my side. The church focuses so much on family and eternal relationships (which it should) that sometimes we overlook the realities. 

But as you said, that's what faith is all about. I have to trust the Lord that He actually does know best. If my husband is able to be my eternal companion, then I will be ecstatic. If he isn't and I'm enjoying eternal life, then I'll be ecstatic (because we believe we will actually be happy living in CK). That takes a truckload of faith when you see reality each day. But, faith is like that isn't it? Because I can do everything great, but still doesn't mean squat without the Atonement, which is something we also take on faith.

Gosh, life is hard but I'm banking on God being who He says He is. He can help us to strengthen faith in the face of the reality of our daily struggles and give us glimpses of what is in store for His children. Just gotta choose it, walk by faith, and just endure well. 

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3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There was an article I read recently that was posted on facebook by someone I know who's struggling that was talking about how Mormons believe in a "sad heaven" because we think that our loved ones who don't stay faithful will be separated from us.

Will a higher kingdom be forced upon one who has earned it if they prefer to stay in a lower kingdom with a loved one, or will all be able to travel freely among their obtained kingdom and any lower ones?  I strongly suspect the latter is necessary for true paradise.  Even if I don't care for someone enough to give up a higher kingdom permanently to be with them, there are a lot of folks I'd like to visit, and I doubt we'll all be in the same place.

Edited by NightSG
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26 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Will a higher kingdom be forced upon one who has earned it 

Everything in me screams "no". 

On a slightly different note. We had a Brother pipe up and say he has zero interest in being in the CK. He doesn't want to work that hard or have that kind of responsibility. If the other kingdoms are so great, he is perfectly content going there instead. Hum...?<_<

Edited by NeedleinA
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51 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Will a higher kingdom be forced upon one who has earned it 

 

44 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Everything in me screams "no". 

I find the question nonsensical. In order to "earn" it one has to choose it. If one doesn't choose it then one didn't earn it.

53 minutes ago, NightSG said:

if they prefer to stay in a lower kingdom with a loved one

This strikes me as a short-sighted question. If God says we should strive for the Celestial kingdom can we not trust Him in that regardless of our mortal views of love and relationships?

Moreover...no. Families can only be together in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, otherwise they remain separate for ever. That's like saying if sin makes someone happy shouldn't they choose to sin when we know (if we trust God) that wickedness never was happiness.

Do we trust God or not?

There is a story (which I may be bothered to look up if anyone really wants it referenced) where an older lady in the early church told Joseph Smith that she did not want to be sealed so she could be exalted because she wanted to be an angel instead. Joseph told her flatly that she didn't know what she was talking about and then, if I recall correctly, had her sealed to him.

Any I-want-to-be-in-a-lower-kingdom sort of talk is just that -- not knowing what we're talking about.

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7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If God says we should strive for the Celestial kingdom can we not trust Him in that regardless of our mortal views of love and relationships? [...] Do we trust God or not? [...] Any I-want-to-be-in-a-lower-kingdom sort of talk is just that -- not knowing what we're talking about.

Bingo.

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Just for fun.. anyone ever wonder, if both spouses make it to same Ter or Tel Kingdoms as each other, what separates them from finding each other there, and hanging out, or saying they consider themselves married (similar to earth life)? Living together...

 

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4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Just for fun.. anyone ever wonder, if both spouses make it to same Ter or Tel Kingdoms as each other, what separates them from finding each other there, and hanging out, or saying they consider themselves married (similar to earth life)? Living together...

Maybe nothing. But marriage is far more than hanging out together and using the word "marriage". It is far more even than a license for sex. If that were all there was to it, homosexual "marriage" would be a real thing instead of just a legalized nonsensical fiction.

Edited by Vort
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7 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Just for fun.. anyone ever wonder, if both spouses make it to same Ter or Tel Kingdoms as each other, what separates them from finding each other there, and hanging out, or saying they consider themselves married (similar to earth life)? Living together...

 

Nothing except the lack of eternal increase, methinks.  And I don't even rule out the possibility that spouses who are resurrected into different kingdoms might maintain a similar relationship--with the same limitations.

My two cents on the OP is that this good brother is going to get exactly the reward he anticipates getting; and more.  If he didn't understand that exaltation and eternal increase were on the table . . . I think it will be explained to him and the Lord will make things right.  If he did understand . . . well, he didn't want it (at least, not enough to work through his doubts), so it is a little hard for him (or an unconnected third party) to complain that he doesn't get what he didn't really want.  The old saw about "we aren't mortal beings having spiritual experiences, we are spiritual beings having a mortal experience" is only part right.  It is through mortality that the true nature of our spirit reveals itself.

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12 hours ago, Vort said:

Maybe nothing. 

 

8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Nothing except the lack of eternal increase, methinks.  

As much as I understand the thinking that leads to this sort of response, I have a hard time buying it. We don't really know because it hasn't been revealed to us, but the core ideas that are taught in the church related to being forever families, together forever, etc., not to mention the importance of sealing, seem to imply to me that there's something more to it than just the ability for eternal increase. I don't know what that difference is, but it strikes me that there is something more (and a very weighty more) to it.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I think this is an interesting discussion, and I agree with Carb. We don't know for sure, but I certainly would not rule out the Celestial Kingdom for that man.  I think questions like this underscore the counsel from Elder Oaks in his classic talk about judging. He said we are not to make eternal judgements, clearly one reason is we don't have enough reason to do so. I'm cheering for the guy and others like him, I hope the Celestial Kingdom will be crowded!

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3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

As much as I understand the thinking that leads to this sort of response, I have a hard time buying it. We don't really know because it hasn't been revealed to us, but the core ideas that are taught in the church related to being forever families, together forever, etc., not to mention the importance of sealing, seem to imply to me that there's something more to it than just the ability for eternal increase. I don't know what that difference is, but it strikes me that there is something more (and a very weighty more) to it.

Agreed. If you read my answer carefully, I think (hope) you will see that is essentially what I said.

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