mdfxdb

Counselor youth interviews & LOC

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13 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

The context is different when you discuss school teachers and medical professionals. They certainly would not be behind closed doors with a minor alone . . .

First off, in therapeutic settings (including school counseling), as well as investigations in child welfare cases, it is quite common for children to be in one-on-one settings with the counselor/investigator and for the probing to go very deeply indeed.  And even in more mundane medical situations, one-on-one scenarios are quite common in--for example--states that allow abortion for minors without parental consent.  You don't get to play the "doctor-patient confidentiality is sacred" card in one context, and the "no parent present is just creepy" card in another.

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. . . also they are trained professionals. 

Do you know precisely what this training entails, or are we just letting other people's degrees do our thinking for us?  

And what, specifically, are you afraid that an untrained bishop might do that an untrained parent or a trained doctor or teacher isn't also at risk of doing?

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You cannot do anything about peer groups or the media so that does not even warrant comment.

The fact that a point makes you uncomfortable, does not make it beneath your notice.  To suggest that we can't do anything about our children's exposure to, and education about, peers or pop culture; while suggesting that we can do something about the ministerial practices of what is quite possibly the most un-democratic religious institution in modern Christendom; seems rather unrealistic.

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

First off, in therapeutic settings (including school counseling), as well as investigations in child welfare cases, it is quite common for children to be in one-on-one settings with the counselor/investigator and for the probing to go very deeply indeed.  And even in more mundane medical situations, one-on-one scenarios are quite common in--for example--states that allow abortion for minors without parental consent.  You don't get to play the "doctor-patient confidentiality is sacred" card in one context, and the "no parent present is just creepy" card in another.

Do you know precisely what this training entails, or are we just letting other people's degrees do our thinking for us?  

And what, specifically, are you afraid that an untrained bishop might do that an untrained parent or a trained doctor or teacher isn't also at risk of doing?

The fact that a point makes you uncomfortable, does not make it beneath your notice.  To suggest that we can't do anything about our children's exposure to, and education about, peers or pop culture; while suggesting that we can do something about the ministerial practices of what is quite possibly the most un-democratic religious institution in modern Christendom; seems rather unrealistic.

To paraphrase Castle, "Stop ruining my story with your logic!" :)

That was a very logical and clear series of comments, which I agree with.  (The Castle paraphrasing was just a joke.)

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14 hours ago, Eowyn said:

And how would people feel about 2 adults "intimidating" and "interrogating" a teenager? I don't think you can ever make everyone happy.

 

We're not talking about merit badges here, though. We're talking about a bishop making sure that youth aren't entering the temple unworthily. The priesthood and proper line of authority. Judges in Israel. 

My position is that the bishop or his counselors should not probe. If it is a worthiness interview they should ask the questions straight up nothing more. If a child lies and enters unworthily the sin falls on that person. The bishop is a judge in israel and his obligation has been fulfilled when he asks those questions.

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12 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

What does 50ish have to do with anything? How about a 30ish year old Bishop, does that change anything?

What do you personally do when it is time to interview 12yr old Young Women? Do you do your interviews with 2 deep leadership? Do you leave the door open? 

 

Nope 30ish yo bishop does not change anything. I personally do not have to perform interviews in my current calling thank goodness. If I did I would have an open door policy or a member of the YW presidency in the room with me.

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17 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I personally do not have to perform interviews in my current calling

Are you a ward/branch clerk?
or 
Finance/Membership clerk?

 

Edited by NeedleinA

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2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

First off, in therapeutic settings (including school counseling), as well as investigations in child welfare cases, it is quite common for children to be in one-on-one settings with the counselor/investigator and for the probing to go very deeply indeed.  And even in more mundane medical situations, one-on-one scenarios are quite common in--for example--states that allow abortion for minors without parental consent.  You don't get to play the "doctor-patient confidentiality is sacred" card in one context, and the "no parent present is just creepy" card in another.

 

As allowed by law with a trained professional, I do get to play both cards.

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

Do you know precisely what this training entails, or are we just letting other people's degrees do our thinking for us?  

 

Nope but I think most would agree that some training is better than no training.

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The fact that a point makes you uncomfortable, does not make it beneath your notice.  To suggest that we can't do anything about our children's exposure to, and education about, peers or pop culture; while suggesting that we can do something about the ministerial practices of what is quite possibly the most un-democratic religious institution in modern Christendom; seems rather unrealistic.

Clearly we can do something about what our kids view in the media and who their peers are but that is not germane to this conversation which is why I dismiss it out of hand.

 

 

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22 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

As an individual who happens to be in possession of HB1 I can state that this training does not happen

 

39 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I personally do not have to perform interviews in my current calling thank goodness.

I'm guessing that since you have "possession" to HB1, yet you do not do interviews, you most likely are a ward clerk. If you are in fact a ward clerk, that would greatly explain why you seem to think that "training does not happen". Ward Clerks have access to HB1, but are not necessarily trained on it as you described. If you are a ward clerk that means you would have missed some of the meetings I was alluding to such as, Bishopric Training, Priesthood Leadership training (breakouts), PPIs with Stake Pres, etc. 

If you are a financial or membership clerk, then you don't have access to HB1. One copy of HB1 is stored in the clerk's office. So if you are a financial or membership clerk, you may have seen it sitting there, but technically don't have access to it. If this is the case, then this would further explain a lack of training on HB1. 

23 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

What's your calling?

Currently HPGL

If you are a clerk, great! I was a ward clerk in my past too and loved it!

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Guest LiterateParakeet

@omegaseamaster75

For the double posts...use edit to open a double post. Once you are there, look for OPTIONS on the bottom line click on that and the drop down menu will give you the option to delete the post. :combust: Problem solved. :)

Edited by LiterateParakeet

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10 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

look for OPTIONS on the bottom,

LP, I saw you mention this prior, but I'm not seeing anything like this...I wonder why I'm not getting that option...hum.

Edited by NeedleinA

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Guest LiterateParakeet
8 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

LP, I saw you mention this prior, but I'm not seeing anything like this...I wonder why I'm not getting that option...hum.

Wel, I'll be darned. It's always been there for me so I just clicked edit on the previous post to give further details...I saw options for a second...but then it disappeared! I'm so not kidding.

I'm chalking it up to forum glitches. I believe that it isn't there for you. Try again later maybe it will reappear. :)

 

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Oh wait! Stop the presses. Can you see it at the bottom of your post now? Without clicking edit? Try that.

I call this "my brain glitch" Happens  ALL the time.

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Well I think my question has been sufficiently addressed.  It would appear that most here are in favor of the bishop and his counselors asking probing questions to our youth regarding the law of chastity including masturbation, porn viewing, and whatever else the spirit may dictate.........  

 

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9 minutes ago, mdfxdb said:

Well I think my question has been sufficiently addressed.  It would appear that most here are in favor of the bishop and his counselors asking probing questions to our youth regarding the law of chastity including masturbation, porn viewing, and whatever else the spirit may dictate.........  

 

I would think it obvious, even a matter of definition, that we do as the Spirit dictates. Do you advocate ignoring or disobeying the dictates of the Spirit?

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35 minutes ago, mdfxdb said:

Well I think my question has been sufficiently addressed.  It would appear that most here are in favor of the bishop and his counselors asking probing questions to our youth regarding the law of chastity including masturbation, porn viewing, and whatever else the spirit may dictate.........  

 

I've pointed this out before, but--

If it bothers you, why don't you sit in with your kids' interviews, or insist on them leaving the door open?

And what dictates a person has to answer any question that they feel is inappropriate? 

 

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1 hour ago, mdfxdb said:

Well I think my question has been sufficiently addressed.  It would appear that most here are in favor of the bishop and his counselors asking probing questions to our youth regarding the law of chastity including masturbation, porn viewing, and whatever else the spirit may dictate.........  

Well, either you believe that, spiritually/ecclesiastically speaking, people past the age of accountability may be called upon to account for their actions--or you don't.

You either believe that all that "common judge in Israel" business should be taken at face value--or you don't.

You either believe that the Holy Ghost is a thing--or you don't.

You either believe that the VAST majority of LDS bishops are not pedophiles--or you don't.

You either believe that bishops can discuss human sexuality with a teenager while displaying a measure of sensitivity and compassion equal to that displayed by any parent, counselor, doctor, teacher, friend, or mass-market entertainment media--or you don't. 

Frankly, I think it's worth noting that we tend to expect counselors, doctors, teachers, friends, and mass-market media to validate, not correct, an individual's past sexual choices.  If I'm a parent who's teaching my kid abstinence, I want--and, probably, need--all the reinforcement I can get; and so I'm very happy to have the assistance of a wise and sensitive ecclesiastical leader.  When someone starts insisting that all ecclesiastical leaders be shut out of that process because some of them may be something less than perfectly compassionate--frankly, I start wondering if the objection actually arises from a desire that a youth's sexual peccadilloes be met with validation instead of compassion.  Because while one in fifty bishops may deny the latter, fifty in fifty bishops are going to deny the former.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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30 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If I'm a parent who's teaching my kid abstinence, I want--and, probably, need--all the reinforcement I can get; and so I'm very happy to have the assistance of a wise and sensitive ecclesiastical leader.

For this exact reason, as a parent, I was excited to have my son come home and say that our current bishop had asked him about masturbation and pornography. 

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4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, either you believe that, spiritually/ecclesiastically speaking, people past the age of accountability may be called upon to account for their actions--or you don't.

 

I do believe that people are accountable for their actions, and they are held as such by the temple recommend questions.  I never said different.

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

You either believe that all that "common judge in Israel" business should be taken at face value--or you don't.

 

Common judge in Israel should be taken at face value, and as such they are required to ask certain questions.  My original post was directed to specific questions if any that were done by those in the know.

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

You either believe that the Holy Ghost is a thing--or you don't.

 

The Holy Ghost is a person.....likely.....or at least will be some day.  I do have a hard time believing the Holy Ghost gently whispering to someone "ask about porn" "ask about masturbation"

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

You either believe that the VAST majority of LDS bishops are not pedophiles--or you don't.

 

Clearly the vast majority of LDS Bishops are not pedophiles.  

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

You either believe that bishops can discuss human sexuality with a teenager while displaying a measure of sensitivity and compassion equal to that displayed by any parent, counselor, doctor, teacher, friend, or mass-market entertainment media--or you don't. 

 

Bishops are not trained properly to discuss human sexuality.  Please demonstrate to me the manual they use for that, surely there is a publication?  

Also Bishops fall into the same category as parents, friends, or mass-market entertainment.  You have no idea what you are going to get.  Bishops, parents, friends, or mass-market entertainment can all be equally insensitive, or sensitive.  It's a mixed bag because they are typically unqualified to discuss the topic.  

Whereas a counselor, doctor, or teacher has at least had some standard of education on the subject.  

It's not about permissiveness, or validating behaviors, it's about liability and risk from my point of view.  If I as a bishop probe and some kid accuses me of something i'm cooked, innocent or not....

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41 minutes ago, mdfxdb said:

I do have a hard time believing the Holy Ghost gently whispering to someone "ask about porn" "ask about masturbation"

Why is this so hard to believe? He's responsible for the spiritual health and welfare of all ward members, and those are both things that damage spiritual health. Unless you don't believe those things are damaging, which is another issue entirely. 

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mdfxdb-

Though you have been "reading" HB1 (and pasting parts of it online), you have not been "understanding" HB1. There is a big difference. This lack of understanding and training on it leads some people to confusion & frustration, both of which, I would suggest you are suffering from now. Ever wonder why HB1 is not given out to every member? Well, you are a perfect example of one reason why. After reading it, suddenly someone is now an instant Bishop. Suddenly we get to set limitations on what Bishops shouldn't say in interviews. Suddenly we get to set limits to what the Holy Ghost is allowed to say during interviews too. Suddenly we get to declare Bishops untrained. 

As you are murmuring against your Bishop or Bishops in general, is the spirit stepping in to give you a calm, clear peaceful reassurance that you are on the right track? I would suggest, based on your comments thus far, that this is not the case.

Could it be that you are wrong on your position? Could it be that you missed the section about discussing pornography in interviews with youth? Could it be that you missed the section related to discussing "For the Strengthen of Youth" during Youth Interviews, in the which masturbation is mentioned?

Honestly, do yourself a favor, put HB1 away until you get a calling that requires it.

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3 hours ago, mdfxdb said:

Bishops are not trained properly to discuss human sexuality.

Trained? What sort of training is required to discuss this at the level a bishop would need to -- which is to say, within the bounds of marriage or not at all. It doesn't exactly take a degree.

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4 hours ago, mdfxdb said:

I do believe that people are accountable for their actions, and they are held as such by the temple recommend questions.  I never said different.

Fair enough; but I think it's worth pointing out that under Jewish law a child was "bar mitzvah"--a son of the law--at the age of 12, expected to be able to account for his compliance with all 613 commandments of the law.  Rather than wringing our hands about "power imbalances", perhaps we should channel our energies into raising spiritually vibrant youth who are prepared to articulate and account for their spirituality to third parties; and who can can hold their own against even the most incompetent/insensitive/predatory members of The Patriarchy™.

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The Holy Ghost is a person.....likely.....or at least will be some day.  I do have a hard time believing the Holy Ghost gently whispering to someone "ask about porn" "ask about masturbation"

I imagine one would, if one believed God doesn't really care whether a person uses porn or masturbates.

But such is not the teaching of the Church.

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Bishops are not trained properly to discuss human sexuality.  Please demonstrate to me the manual they use for that, surely there is a publication?  

What manual do doctors and teachers use?  What professional licensing standard, or required university class, trains on that issue specifically?

And of course, as you point out; parents aren't trained for that either.  But you didn't start a thread about "invasive" questioning of kids by their parents, or follow up with questions about what is "appropriate".  Why are you OK with kids getting sexual guidance from all these untrained sources--but Mormon bishops, and only Mormon bishops, have to keep their mouths shut?

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It's not about permissiveness, or validating behaviors, it's about liability and risk from my point of view.  If I as a bishop probe and some kid accuses me of something i'm cooked, innocent or not....

Given the tenor of your earlier posts to this thread, I very much doubt this is your concern.

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9 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Ever wonder why HB1 is not given out to every member?

Well, you are a perfect example of one reason why. After reading it, suddenly someone is now an instant Bishop. Suddenly we get to set limitations on what Bishops shouldn't say in interviews. Suddenly we get to set limits to what the Holy Ghost is allowed to say during interviews too. Suddenly we get to declare Bishops untrained. 

Actually I did for many years.  And no one ever articulated the reasons to me.  It was always, "Those are the instructions we've been given.  

But I remembered Pres. Monson giving an address (I'm guessing it was in GC.  It was a long time ago that I heard it.) where he mentioned that as a priest, he read the entire handbook.  It was a lot smaller than it is currently. (Again, at the time of the address, it was much larger than today).  So, because of this single, isolated statement I had to wonder.

Since then, yes, instances like this OP keep coming up.  And I see the wisdom of it.

 

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13 hours ago, mdfxdb said:

Please demonstrate to me the manual they use for that, surely there is a publication?  

There is.  It'll have to wait until I get home (someone remind me if it's that important).  It's on LDS.org (so you could just go search for it yourself, if you really wanted).  It's actually a bunch of stuff, for use by members and leaders (there was a boatload coming at LOC issues from every possible angle).  I know about it because my brother needed to print a bunch of it for a training they were doing in his ward and he wanted me to merge or otherwise tweak some of the PDFs to make it easier for him (and I have full Acrobat and he doesn't).

Just because you don't know of a manual labeled "Training for Bishops on Discussing LOC Details Like Masturbation and Pornography with Youth" doesn't mean there aren't training materials.  (Whether any given bishop avails himself of all the available training is a whole 'nother' question.)

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