Disciplary council, confession and permanent record

[Kelli]

I am told that at a disciplinary council the clerk will attend along with the high council and he will write down everything I say and confess to?  That then becomes a permanent part of my church records, even if I repent and am forgiven by the Lord. That doesn't seem right, but I'm told that is how it works by my Bishop if I am found guilty and subject to disfellowship.  He says that my confession becomes a permanent part of my written church records and future bishops and stake presidents can request to see it, even years later after I am forgiven. Is that true and if so how is that fair?  Why would anyone confess then?  How would I ever be able to put a sin fully behind me if the church tracks confessions and my future leaders can read all about it.   

[estradling75]

There are very simple reasons...  First lets say the reason of you sin is that you are a child molester...  You serve your time, for both the church and civil justice.  Every sign points to a sincere and complete repentance.  Even with that it would be extraordinary bad idea to give you a calling that requires you to interact with kids...  Other calling sure.. absolutely, but let not put you back in temptations path, the cost is simply to high.

Second the scripture are quite clear that while the Lord will "remember our sins no more" if we truly repent.  But that if we again sin (or fail to forsake our sins which is part of repentance) then it comes back.   Same idea here.  If you repent and never again come before church discipline then the Local leader has no need to call for the record (or otherwise remember your sins), but if you do, then the local leader can call for them so that your entire history is before them so that they can know full story to help you.

Remember repentance means "change."  Its not just going through a check-list, and being done.  If you have not changed then you have not repented, and no such forgetting is promised.

   

[NeedleinA]

Hi Kelli,

For many members the thought of confessing their sins can be overwhelming. The thought of having their sins some how attached to their permanent record can be even more overwhelming. Let me share a couple of thoughts with you to hopefully put your mind at ease and help you realize the true blessings that come from a Disciplinary Council. 

The quick version:

The Council: for the moment, we are going to alter the name "Disciplinary Council" and change it's name to "Council of Love". The Brethren that are on the Council, along with the Stake Presidency, are there for several purposes, but the main overriding purpose is to help "you". They are there to help set you on a course of correction to lead you back to full fellowship and ultimately become the best person you can be. They are there to see you as our Savior sees you, with eyes of love and compassion, not harsh judgement. Going to this council is a blessing and should be welcomed, because you are one step closer to becoming healed from whatever it is that brought you there in the first place.

Your Record: "If" you are disfellowshipped, it will be put on your permanent record, however, there is more to the story than that. Disfellowshipping is noted on your record, but only until you have been reinstated to full-fellowship again. Once you are reinstated, the notation is then removed from your record. So, why put it on your record then? This helps church leaders communicate about you incase you move elsewhere prior to coming back into full fellowship. 

[NeuroTypical]

5 hours ago, Kelli said:

I am told that at a disciplinary council the clerk will attend along with the high council and he will write down everything I say and confess to?  That then becomes a permanent part of my church records, even if I repent and am forgiven by the Lord. That doesn't seem right, but I'm told that is how it works by my Bishop if I am found guilty and subject to disfellowship.  He says that my confession becomes a permanent part of my written church records and future bishops and stake presidents can request to see it, even years later after I am forgiven.  

No, the notes taken by the clerk do not become a permanent part of your church records.  The notes serve as a basis for completing the Report of Church Disciplinary Action form, which is a summary of the proceedings.

Yes, disfellowshipment is noted on a member's record, and church HQ makes the note, and updates the member record using the form.  

After a person has been reinstated to full fellowship, church HQ removes the note and updates the record.

Quote

how is that fair?

Repentance cleanses sins - it does not put everything back the way it was here on earth.  Repentant murderers can't give back life.  Repentant abusers usually cannot restore their victims health, wellness, lack of trauma.  Repentant embezzlers often cannot repay all the money they stole.  Repentant folks who have committed sexual sin with another consenting adult often can regain virtue and move forward clean, but the burden of their actions often are carried through life by the people they acted with, and those burdens impact relationships throughout life.  We humans can be totally repentant, totally forgive, totally free of the burden of sin, and yet leave a trail of scars and damage and wounds that will never heal in this mortality.  Consider that, as you think about fairness and the atonement.

 Church discipline is for three reasons: Help members repent and come unto Christ, protect the flock, and protect the good name of the church.  Consider for a moment - How would you feel if you were raped by a man you see serving in Cub scouts?  Or if your small business collapsed after someone stole all the money, and you see the guy in the clerk's office handling the tithing?  Or if your husband cheated on you and left you, and they made him bishop?

Quote

Why would anyone confess then?  

You confess in order to remove the burden of sin from your soul and move forward cleansed and whole.  You don't confess as a way of hiding your sins from people.  Confession is part of repentance, something which should involve great sorrow for what you've done, and amends to whom you've done it.

 

Quote

How would I ever be able to put a sin fully behind me if the church tracks confessions and my future leaders can read all about it.

You would put it behind you by completing the repentance process, and emerging clean and free of sin.  That doesn't mean you won't face earthly consequences.  People knowing what you did, will be a consequence.

 

Go forward with the process.  You need to get right with the lord, and your church leaders will help you.  Face your consequences and deal with them.  God bless you.

Edited March 17, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

6 hours ago, Kelli said:

I am told that at a disciplinary council the clerk will attend along with the high council and he will write down everything I say and confess to?  That then becomes a permanent part of my church records, even if I repent and am forgiven by the Lord. That doesn't seem right, but I'm told that is how it works by my Bishop if I am found guilty and subject to disfellowship.  He says that my confession becomes a permanent part of my written church records and future bishops and stake presidents can request to see it, even years later after I am forgiven. Is that true and if so how is that fair?  Why would anyone confess then?  How would I ever be able to put a sin fully behind me if the church tracks confessions and my future leaders can read all about it.   

I have a different perspective. I'm very proud of you for even going through that. It takes major strength to even think of this. 

I am a convert, so I don't know how the process works-the other posters are much more knowledgeable on that topic than I am. For what little it's worth, what they say makes sense to me. 

Please remember that you are NOT alone in this. The heavens rejoice when a sinner repents. I think a prophet in the book of Mormon says the same when his son turned away from adultery. I have a good friend who was disfellowshipped for something then came back in the church. He's now a full standing, strong member. 

[zil]

Choosing to be humble (and yes, this requires great humility) brings power into your life.

[Kelli]

I really appreciate the comments, and I really want to deal with this the right way, the Lords way, but I recently learned from a comment from a church leader that this would follow me in the church forever once brought before the council.  

A clarification first though.  This isn't child abuse or embezzlement or anything that needs to be recorded to protect other members of the church.   This is something I want to repent of, and realize there will be a group of men that learns of it Now, but that shouldn't follow me for 40 years as it seems to if on my permanent records.  I understand that after I've repented and been through the disciplinary process, the local clerk can't see it later on I am told, but any future bishop or stake president can pull it up as the notes will be kept somewhere in the church databases and they just need ask.  

I was told that the notes from the disciplinary session will all be on my permanent record, (maybe that is on the summary for the Report of Church Disciplinary Action Form as Neurotypical noted), but the point was that there will be a fairly detailed record forever that men in authority (my Bishop 30 years from now????) can pull up and read should he feel so inclined. I don't get that.  That is not what the scriptures say about the Lord forgiving and forgetting in the case of a truly peninent person.  Why should I have to relive this 30 years from now. I want to repent and put this behind me with my Father in Heavem. 

I am truly sorry and want to repent, but I can't face a lifetime of membership with every bishop who wants to check with church headquarters pulling up my records and judging me off of something done years before.  

I was told that if I'm ever considered for certain church callings - (primary president, relief society president? In my case, or for a man a Quorum president or a Bishop?) then I could either be asked or the bishop would check my records for past discipline.  Then, 20 years down the road something I've repented off gets dragged back up again and I have to explain it.  Or I never know that my Bishop has pulled these records back up in considering me for a calling, decided to find someone without past discipline  and I am blacklisted in the church.  That's not Christlike.  

I know that some like to call these Courts of Love.  I really wish I could believe that.   If they really are that, then let the church call them that and change the name. The church hasn't done that.   It's pretty clear the church calls them disciplinary councils and I've talked to a friend that felt very strongly in his case , a Court of Love would have been a misnomer - it was a disciplinary council. 

[estradling75]

3 hours ago, Kelli said:

I really appreciate the comments, and I really want to deal with this the right way, the Lords way, but I recently learned from a comment from a church leader that this would follow me in the church forever once brought before the council.  

A clarification first though.  This isn't child abuse or embezzlement or anything that needs to be recorded to protect other members of the church.   This is something I want to repent of, and realize there will be a group of men that learns of it Now, but that shouldn't follow me for 40 years as it seems to if on my permanent records.  I understand that after I've repented and been through the disciplinary process, the local clerk can't see it later on I am told, but any future bishop or stake president can pull it up as the notes will be kept somewhere in the church databases and they just need ask.  

I was told that the notes from the disciplinary session will all be on my permanent record, (maybe that is on the summary for the Report of Church Disciplinary Action Form as Neurotypical noted), but the point was that there will be a fairly detailed record forever that men in authority (my Bishop 30 years from now????) can pull up and read should he feel so inclined. I don't get that.  That is not what the scriptures say about the Lord forgiving and forgetting in the case of a truly peninent person.  Why should I have to relive this 30 years from now. I want to repent and put this behind me with my Father in Heavem. 

I am truly sorry and want to repent, but I can't face a lifetime of membership with every bishop who wants to check with church headquarters pulling up my records and judging me off of something done years before.  

I was told that if I'm ever considered for certain church callings - (primary president, relief society president? In my case, or for a man a Quorum president or a Bishop?) then I could either be asked or the bishop would check my records for past discipline.  Then, 20 years down the road something I've repented off gets dragged back up again and I have to explain it.  Or I never know that my Bishop has pulled these records back up in considering me for a calling, decided to find someone without past discipline  and I am blacklisted in the church.  That's not Christlike.  

I know that some like to call these Courts of Love.  I really wish I could believe that.   If they really are that, then let the church call them that and change the name. The church hasn't done that.   It's pretty clear the church calls them disciplinary councils and I've talked to a friend that felt very strongly in his case , a Court of Love would have been a misnomer - it was a disciplinary council. 

It is understandable to have questions...   The question to return to is do you have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?  Do you have Faith that he knows what he is doing?  Do you have Faith that He called the Prophet and Apostles and gave them direction on how to organize His church? (Including disciplinary councils).  Do you have faith that your local leaders are called of God? (inspite of their personal imperfections and weakness).

 

If said no to any of those questions well then it is something you can work on...  If you said yes then it is time to exercise and act in Faith that your sins will be "remembered" for exactly as long as the Lord finds it wise.  And "remembered no more" when he finds that wise.

   

[NeedleinA]

3 hours ago, Kelli said:

 I really want to deal with this the right way, the Lords way,

A couple of more thoughts for you Kelli:

1. If you would like specific answers, then it is helpful for us to know the specific sin involved. No one knows who "Kelli" is and never will. I highly doubt there is anything you could possibly share that we all haven't already heard before: "adultery", "masturbation", "same sex relations" etc. You don't need to go into detail. One or two words is enough. Your choice, but if you would like a "specific" answer, some of us are more inclined to help rather than dance around in circles. 

2. Disciplinary Councils are "Councils of Love". Receiving disciplinary action does not negate the aspect of love involved, it is actually the opposite. If someone feels it was "only discipline" minus any love, then I would suggest the person was erroneously only listening for "gosh, what is my punishment" and missed all the wonderful counsel & love displayed during the Council to help the person correct their problem. Your attitude, your fear, your guilt will in part determine the "eyes" in which you view your council visit. 

3. I have sat on several Disciplinary Councils, both Ward & Stake, they are there for your benefit. Don't fool yourself into believing you are sitting in front of a group of "men" trying to tear you down or pass harsh judgement. I hope you realize that several of the "men" that sit in that Council will have been in your shoes previously. They understand, because they have been where you are and have had the same concerns you have. 

4. Lastly. It is clear through your comments, that the adversary is working double time on you. Creating fear, doubt, concern, "men",  and judging others/system as not being "Christlike". You are on the threshold of correcting whatever erroneous course he (the adversary) has helped set you down. This is his last final chance to scare you into changing your mind. I've never met anyone who has gone through the full repentance process who didn't see the marvelous beauty it is to work through the Atonement through proper priesthood authority. 

Hang in there, and just do it, stop looking for and clinging to  reasons of not doing it. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Kelli]

An affair with an unmarried non member. 

[estradling75]

23 minutes ago, Kelli said:

An affair with an unmarried non member. 

Sady that kind of stuff happens...

Now lets follow a path into the future...  You made a mistake, you repent and you get right again with the Lord... and your past should then be in your past.  And that where it should remain.  Now ten years down the line you fear a Bishop or Stake President might want to request those records... Well first they are very busy men why would they want to do that? Second they have to give a reason and Salt Lake has to approve and release the records to them.  They are not going to be released just because they asked for them out of curiosity . 

Now if ten years later you have another affair... well then the details of what happened ten years before is very relevant, what you were told, the circumstances of the transgression all that might have a direct impact on how they council and handle the new transgression.  Thus they at that point can request the info for very valid and scripturally sound reasons.   

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by estradling75

[NeedleinA]

26 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Sadly that kind of stuff happens...

Now lets follow a path into the future...  You made a mistake, you repent and you get right again with the Lord... and your past should then be in your past.  And that where it should remain. 

Among other things, this is exactly what I would expect to hear during your Council meeting. Perfect answer E75. 

[Kelli]

And if I committed the sin again and confessed, why is the default assumption that I'd lie about or hide the first time?  This is all voluntary so why would I go in to confess and not tell the whole story and what happened in the past.

And what about the other case, which is what I'm most concerned about.  I've repented, I've put it in my past, and 10 years from now my bishop pulls up my permanent records in regards to a calling to see if I'm worthy or have past discipline.  A  church member who has been in councils before told me it is not uncommon to be asked about past discipline when called to certain csllings (and then your record may be pulled up) or a bishop may request your records before he calls you.  That is NOT putting things in the past.  

[estradling75]

9 minutes ago, Kelli said:

And if I committed the sin again and confessed, why is the default assumption that I'd lie about or hide the first time?  This is all voluntary so why would I go in to confess and not tell the whole story and what happened in the past.

And what about the other case, which is what I'm most concerned about.  I've repented, I've put it in my past, and 10 years from now my bishop pulls up my permanent records in regards to a calling to see if I'm worthy or have past discipline.  A  church member who has been in councils before told me it is not uncommon to be asked about past discipline when called to certain csllings (and then your record may be pulled up) or a bishop may request your records before he calls you.  That is NOT putting things in the past.  

One would hope you would tell the truth... But you only know your side and your perception of things and human memory can be a tricky thing especially when powerful emotions are involved . The record will contain the events and history as recorded by a neutral party (ward clerk) and unfaded by time.

And I think the people advising you are confusing things like annotations (which are for things like child molestation) which are for things that permanently effect what a person can to.  Unresolved disciplinary actions which also effect what a person can currently do.  I see no reason why an affair once properly handled, resolved and closed would have further relevance.  Unless you have another affair.  However I am not a bishop, I've never been a bishop, if you really want to know what is going to happen ask your bishop.

 

 

 

[omegaseamaster75]

23 minutes ago, Kelli said:

And if I committed the sin again and confessed, why is the default assumption that I'd lie about or hide the first time?  This is all voluntary so why would I go in to confess and not tell the whole story and what happened in the past.

And what about the other case, which is what I'm most concerned about.  I've repented, I've put it in my past, and 10 years from now my bishop pulls up my permanent records in regards to a calling to see if I'm worthy or have past discipline.  A  church member who has been in councils before told me it is not uncommon to be asked about past discipline when called to certain csllings (and then your record may be pulled up) or a bishop may request your records before he calls you.  That is NOT putting things in the past.  

Bishops don't do that, not for ward or stake callings. Also I thought that if you were disfellowshipped and then went through the repentance they didn't keep a record? Is this incorrect?

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Bishops don't do that, not for ward or stake callings. Also I thought that if you were disfellowshipped and then went through the repentance they didn't keep a record? Is this incorrect?

That would be my understanding... I think someone is filling her head full of things are are not true

[Kelli]

The only people I've asked have been a past bishop and a past stake president and both confirmed there are permanent records kept but then didn't want to talk in detail.   i got the feeling this record keeping is secretly done so that those that go before a council won't know about it and will openly confess, not realizing the church keeps detailed notes permanently of confessions.  As Neurotypical already confirmed in an earlier post, there is a Record of Disciplinary Action that summarizes what is said in the meeting and kept permanently on the records of the church.  Thus, there is a permanent record.  And a former stake president told me that those records are accessible for purposes of certain callings.  Are these men not telling the truth?  

[BeccaKirstyn]

10 minutes ago, Kelli said:

 i got the feeling this record keeping is secretly done....

Kelli, this is Satan. As someone mentioned before, going through the repentance process fully is the last thing he wants you to do. He led you down the path of sin and isn't wanting you to find your way out. He's going to do EVERYTHING he can to make sure you don't fully repent (in this case, a disciplinary council). 

Do you believe your bishop, stake president, and other members who will sit on the disciplinary council are called of God?  Do you believe in the repentance process, including the process of the disciplinary council, is God's creation? You say you're willing to do this the Lord's way, so do it and stop letting Satan control how you feel about it. Trust Him and His course of action. 

[NeedleinA]

On 3/17/2016 at 8:47 AM, NeedleinA said:

Your Record: "If" you are disfellowshipped, it will be put on your permanent record, however, there is more to the story than that. Disfellowshipping is noted on your record, but only until you have been reinstated to full-fellowship again. Once you are reinstated, the notation is then removed from your record. 

This would be the case of a standard affair.

50 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And I think the people advising you are confusing things like annotations... I think someone is filling her head full of things are are not true

Either the person giving the "advice" is misinformed or Kelli is not understanding the difference. Your Bishop in 10, 20 years will not be able to see an "affair" on your record, nor should/would he care. If it doesn't appear on your record (you resolved it) he is more interested in calling you to RS President than he is in trying to dig up dirt and find excuses to not have you serve in that calling. 

1 hour ago, Kelli said:

it is not uncommon to be asked about past discipline when called to certain csllings 

This is false. It is common to be asked if there are any "unresolved" sins. Once you have gone through the repentance process, the answer to this question is, "No, there are not". 

Edited March 18, 2016 by NeedleinA

[zil]

14 minutes ago, Kelli said:

The only people I've asked have been a past bishop and a past stake president and both confirmed there are permanent records kept but then didn't want to talk in detail.   i got the feeling this record keeping is secretly done so that those that go before a council won't know about it and will openly confess, not realizing the church keeps detailed notes permanently of confessions.  As Neurotypical already confirmed in an earlier post, there is a Record of Disciplinary Action that summarizes what is said in the meeting and kept permanently on the records of the church.  Thus, there is a permanent record.  And a former stake president told me that those records are accessible for purposes of certain callings.  Are these men not telling the truth?  

I can't tell you the technical details.  I can tell you, as others have, that Satan is trying to confuse and scare you.  I can also tell you that what NeedleInA is writing is what you should trust.  And finally, I can tell you that when you have finished the process, possibly even before you have finished it, you will not be ashamed to look those men from the council in the eye.  It won't bother you to converse with them, or see them at church.  Your guilt will be washed away, and any shame will go with it.

Trust that the Lord Jesus Christ will make this right, if you sincerely repent.

[Kelli]

My initial query that started this thread was whether or not the church is keeping records of what is said in confessions permanently in their files, even after a member has repented and been forgiven by the Lord.  It seems the answer to that question is clearly yes, they are. 

There have been many explanations given ranging from "what if you did it again" to "what if an adulterer were called as a bishop and his wife knew", but the simple answer is that the church is keeping a written record that can be referred to forever of the details of the sin.  Those are very personal things. It is one thing to say it out loud to a group of men. It is another for them to record it forever in writing in a record that follows you everywhere in the church.  

I guess what I don't get is why the church seems to hide this fact or at least not make it clear that it will be recorded forever in my files.  A Bishop should just tell you that and not hem and haw about it.  I certainly don't want things I say about very personal matters written down, permanently stored and then referred to out of context by any leader 20 years later for ANY reason, whether another sin I commit or for a calling or for any reason.  The Lord forgives and forgets a repented sinner according to the Scriptures. Is the church doing that? 

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, Kelli said:

The only people I've asked have been a past bishop and a past stake president and both confirmed there are permanent records kept but then didn't want to talk in detail.   i got the feeling this record keeping is secretly done so that those that go before a council won't know about it and will openly confess, not realizing the church keeps detailed notes permanently of confessions.  As Neurotypical already confirmed in an earlier post, there is a Record of Disciplinary Action that summarizes what is said in the meeting and kept permanently on the records of the church.  Thus, there is a permanent record.  And a former stake president told me that those records are accessible for purposes of certain callings.  Are these men not telling the truth?  

Yes.. the records are kept... yes the leaders can request them...

However I think your understanding of "certain callings" is a lot more generous then theirs were.  If someone got called to be a bishop, a stake president, a mission president, or a general authority or officer of the Church... Basically things which require a person to be a public Face of the church I can see how others might use their past against them and the church.

Lets continue the you in ten years... Lets say they are considering you for membership on the General Relief Society Board... That is a big deal... Guess what the fact that you had an affair might become relevant, not because the church can't forgive, not because the church wants to "punish you" further, but because people who seek to destroy the church might find out and use your past as a weapon to attack the church.  This is an unfortunate reality of a fallen world.  That is something that the Church needs to be aware of if it considers you.

However you seem to think that if in ten years a bishop who might be considering you for a Primary Teacher, or Sunday School Teacher, or even a Relief Society President, is going to be interested (and/or allowed) to see your records.  The answer is no..  Most will not even think to ask and if they did their reasons simply would not be good enough.

But I find it very interesting that everyone you have talked to said "Yes" records are kept...  Yet some how you equate that with "hiding" 

 

 

[BeccaKirstyn]

11 minutes ago, Kelli said:

 The Lord forgives and forgets a repented sinner according to the Scriptures. Is the church doing that? 

Kelli, I don't know what your true intention here is. Are you looking for truth? The people here have spoken it and given all the information they can about this matter without divulging information that they cannot share. I'd recommend that if you're still wanting answers, that you go to the Lord and then you go to your bishop.

Right now, you're questioning the Church. All of us here who are members are very strong in our faith. You won't get anyone here who sides with your assumption that the "Church" isn't forgetting sins. So if you're looking for someone to stand with your assumption, you won't find anyone here to do that.

What you will find are people who are willing to answer your questions to the best of their ability, people who will pray and encourage you to go through the repentance process, and to trust in your Savior who provided that process! 

Find it within yourself to know whether or not you're wanting a few questions answered about the disciplinary process or if this sin, along with the magnitude of the repentance process, is shaking your testimony. If so, I would say that there is something at the foundation of your testimony that needs work. 

[zil]

9 minutes ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

What you will find are people who are willing to answer your questions to the best of their ability, people who will pray and encourage you to go through the repentance process, and to trust in your Savior who provided that process!

Please spend some time pondering and praying about what BeccaKirstyn wrote, Kelli.  There are complete strangers out here, praying for you to be guided and blessed.  You didn't need to ask for it.  We see that you are in need, and we are praying for you.  Ask the Lord to help you receive his blessings.  Tell him your fears about the records.  Rant and rave about it, if you wish, to him - he can take it.  That's the whole point of the Atonement, for him to take it from you, and give you peace and forgiveness it its place (not just the sin - the fear, the frustration, the mistrust, the hard feelings - let him have all of it, and receive the peace and forgiveness he's offering).

[NeedleinA]

 

22 minutes ago, Kelli said:

Is the church doing that? 

Okay, I'm going to totally put myself out there... and I'm going to call your bluff. I am less inclined to think this thread is an issue "about" you, as much as it is an issue you have with the LDS Church. The nature of your repetitive questioning and highly specific concerns, which we have already answered in multiple ways, leads me to doubt your true intentions here.