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As an Evangelical who came of age in the early 1980s, I remember so well the clarity of the world. Democracy vs. Communism and the Moral Majority vs. secular humanism. We figured God would use the church to turn America';s politics and culture to Jesus and righteousness. 30+ years later--what a different world it is! Paul told us to pray for Caesar, not to elect Peter. I will still cast my vote. Nevertheless, my best Christian righteousness will be seen in my love of God and neighbor, far more than in any devotion to a candidate, party, or policy position.  

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I don't know... we saw a different version of America on the other side of the Pacific... where people burned flags and abort their babies and such in the 70's.  The 80's was a prosperous time and America was rich.  We added Steve Jobs and Bill Gates to our list of heroes.... but then we get inundated by the immorality of things such as the Brat Pack, which, to us was just another proof of the decline of American morality.  And Magic Johnson has AIDS.  We, immature as we are, of course wrote oratorical pieces about the effects of Divorce Law and Rowe vs Wade on the decline of American society and our mothers tell us not to marry Americans.  And Philippine society joined the ranks of anti-Americanism kicking out American bases.  The loyalists try to point to American military prowess that made Gorbachev take down that wall to combat anti-Americanism....

From our side of the big ocean, America has always been America... devil may please. 

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Guest MormonGator

You still live in the greatest country in the history of the world. No matter what.  

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Anatess, I just spoke with a fellow who is retiring ... and he is planning to relocate to the Philippines. One of his reasons is that people there still believe in God.  I could not argue, though there is still hope for our land, as well.  For all the sin--and there is plenty--there are godly people, quietly choosing the right. 

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19 hours ago, MormonGator said:

You still live in the greatest country in the history of the world. No matter what.  

I wish this were true, but it isn't anymore.  I've lived in Canada, Germany, and now Australia, and I can tell you that America is no longer the greatest country in the world.  I used to think the same thing, but when you live, not just see, the differences, you begin to understand just how spoiled Americans have become.  Not only spoiled, but narrow minded, and unable to see past their blinders.  Things like America food is absolute garbage unless you buy organic, and buying organic is very expensive.  Australia has the sixth highest cost of living in the world, yet you can buy better, more wholesome, organic foods cheaper than you can in the U.S.  When I briefly returned last summer after nearly four years in Australia, I was sickened after eating out my very first time.  I finally figured out it was all the high fructose corn syrup used in everything.  Once I eliminated that from my diet, I stopped feeling like barfing every time I ate out or eating some prepackaged meal. 

I see the massive disparity in equality among the have's and have not's.  Don't get me wrong; I DO NOT agree with the way places like Canada, German, and Australia have achieved their current level of equality.  It was done at the barrel of a gun (a favorite phrase of mine), in other words, forced on people by the government through egregious and onerous taxes, regulations, and immoral and unjust laws.  However, that disparity remains in the U.S., and it is rapidly catching up to all the other countries in its egregious and onerous, immoral laws.  For that matter, it has surpassed Australia and Canada in many ways in the immoral laws department.

The question remains: what can be done about the laws in the U.S.?  My answer is that unless the defenders of freedom unite, nothing can or will be done.  Something I've been looking into is getting a referendum on the books for the requirement that a jury be advised by the judge of its right to jury nullification both verbally and in writing.  I see this as the only way left to us to stop immoral and unjust laws from affecting innocent people.  Just because something is a law does not make it moral or just, or constitutional.

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18 minutes ago, Jojo Bags said:

Just because something is a law does not make it moral or just, or constitutional.

This is the crux of the matter.

"Unconstitutional laws" is an oxymoron: they are not laws, and we have not only the right to oppose them, but the obligation to do so.

Laws are now the means to control subjects than protect citizens, which are the only moral, just, and constitutional types.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers

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Guest MormonGator
2 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

I wish this were true, but it isn't anymore. 

Nothing will ever shake my view that America is the greatest country in the world. 

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52 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Nothing will ever shake my view that America is the greatest country in the world. 

Go live in another country for a year.  Contrary to what most Americans think, the U.S. isn't the center of the world.

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23 minutes ago, Jojo Bags said:

Go live in another country for a year.  Contrary to what most Americans think, the U.S. isn't the center of the world.

It actually is the financial center of the world (NYC). London is still a close second. It usually swings between the two. And growing up in New England, I went to Quebec basically 25-40 times. I'm used to dealing with anti-American nonsense from everyone. Oddly though, those who bash the country still enjoy our entertainment, and accept our charity in time and money.  Strange. 

They hate us because they ain't us with this one. It's okay, if I wasn't American I'd be jealous too, in all honesty. 

Edited by MormonGator

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5 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Nothing will ever shake my view that America is the greatest country in the world. 

 

4 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Go live in another country for a year.  Contrary to what most Americans think, the U.S. isn't the center of the world.

I have done so. I freely admit to being biased by a heavy patriotic streak, but I cannot think of any country that can lay claim to being "greater" than the US, except perhaps in population or land area. In economic terms, in social freedom, in the right of self-determination, I cannot think of any place on Earth that exceeds the US. Can you?

Edited by Vort

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35 minutes ago, Vort said:

 

I have done so. I freely admit to being biased by a heavy patriotic streak, but I cannot think of any country that can lay claim to being "greater" than the US, except perhaps in population or land area. In economic terms, in social freedom, in the right of self-determination, I cannot think of any place on Earth that exceeds the US. Can you?

I also have a very heavy patriotic streak, but it is tempered by what I see and have experienced.  I have lived outside the U.S. a total of eight years and what I have seen gives the lie to the U.S. being the greatest country on earth.  For economic stability, I would take Australia.  Its economy makes the U.S. look like a third world country.  The true unemployment rate in the U.S. is astronomical if you aren't using common core math to calculate it or aren't pandering to the Obama administration, or both.

The "right of self-determination" in the U.S. is quickly becoming a thing of the past.  We started out as a republic, but degenerated into a democracy.  The 9/11 terrorist attacks (if you believe it was terrorists) accelerated the government agenda to increase the power of the government to conduct surveillance on the innocent American citizen.  We now have don't fly lists where innocent people who simply don't agree with the government are banned from using air travel.  We have returned veterans forcibly incarcerated in a mental facility simply because they posted disagreement of government policies on Facebook. 

In official government documents, there is a total of 72 ways you can be considered a potential domestic terrorist.  People who talk about individual liberty, states rights, are "constitutionalists," believe in the 2nd Amendment, evangelical Christians, those who believe in end time prophecy, are opposed to the U.N., talk about the new world order in a derogatory manner, store food for emergencies, are frustrated with mainstream ideology, have patriotic bumper stickers, anti-abortion, veterans, support libertarian candidates, etc.  I counted them up and I fit a number of them.  According to the U.S. government I am considered a potential domestic terrorist, yet I am a totally law abiding citizen, former cop, and veteran. 

You call that freedom?

 

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3 hours ago, Eowyn said:
8 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

What made you come back/

I believe in end time prophecies and have spent quite some time researching them.  I listen to our prophet and apostles, as well as reading the words of past apostles and prophets.  What I see happening around the world matches much of what I've discovered and I believe we are in the last minute or so of the Saturday night of time.  It's time to come back to Zion.

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These discussions got easier for me to wade through, once I learned the definition of "great".  It doesn't say anything about better, or more moral, or more good.  The word "great" simply means "got more, big, of outstanding size".   It's an interesting exercise to read scriptures containing the word.  Plenty of usage pointing to things being great because of God, but also plenty of stuff like robbers wreaking great havoc, and rich folks having great possessions, and who has the greater burden and the greater reason to mourn, and all that. It's a word used to describe Lucifer's works as well as God's.

So yeah, the debate is basically over.  By the inherent definition of the word in the dictionary, the US remains the greatest nation on earth by several measures.  Including the "big three" that all nations are measured on: Military might, economic might, and political might.

If y'all wanna argue about whether the US is better or worse at things, that's fine.  But y'all are using the wrong word to do it.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

These discussions got easier for me to wade through, once I learned the definition of "great".  It doesn't say anything about better, or more moral, or more good.  The word "great" simply means "got more, big, of outstanding size".   It's an interesting exercise to read scriptures containing the word.  Plenty of usage pointing to things being great because of God, but also plenty of stuff like robbers wreaking great havoc, and rich folks having great possessions, and who has the greater burden and the greater reason to mourn, and all that. It's a word used to describe Lucifer's works as well as God's.

So yeah, the debate is basically over.  By the inherent definition of the word in the dictionary, the US remains the greatest nation on earth by several measures.  Including the "big three" that all nations are measured on Military might, economic might, and political might.

If y'all wanna argue about whether the US is better or worse at things, that's fine.  But y'all are using the wrong word to do it.

This really helps clarify things for me. Thanks!

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20 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

The "right of self-determination" in the U.S. is quickly becoming a thing of the past.  We started out as a republic, but degenerated into a democracy.  The 9/11 terrorist attacks (if you believe it was terrorists) 

 

 Are you a 9/11 "truther"? 

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

 Are you a 9/11 "truther"? 

Putting "truther" in quotes seems to indicate scorn and contempt for anyone who doesn't believe in the government narrative.  Have you ever seen the video of building 7 coming down?  When I first heard about it I laughed people to scorn.  I didn't believe a word of the "truther" theory.  Then I saw the video of a completely untouched building come down because of a small fire.  It is the only high rise in history to ever collapse because of a small fire.  In the video I saw evidence of a controlled implosion.  So, I question the government's narrative.  I can't speak to the WTC towers themselves coming down, but I question building seven's narrative.

So, do believe everything the government puts out?  Personally, if our current socialist president said the sky was blue, I'd go outside and check it myself.

There's a quote I love from one of my favorite Sci-Fi  authors.  “The bigger the lie, apparently, the more likely the uninformed were to accept it, simply because they couldn't believe any government would tell such an absurd story unless it were true.”  David Weber, On Basilisk Station

 

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21 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Putting "truther" in quotes seems to indicate scorn and contempt for anyone who doesn't believe in the government narrative.

 

Well, you are right about that.

Edited by MormonGator

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I tend to believe the towers came down (and collateral damage like building 7 happened) because Islamic militants hijacked planes and attacked the US.  Occams Razor and the overwhelmingly vast majority of the facts support the notion.  Yes, it is also the government narrative, but that is secondary to me.  

Yes, I've watched the bldg 7 collapse video, and I see the evidence of controlled explosion you mention.  The building collapsed around 5:20 PM.  Additional evidence:

* The story related by Deputy Chief Hayden, who served in Division 1 for 33 years:  "Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse."

* The report of Department Chief Daniel Nigroís, who actively halted rescue operations around 3:30 and moved people away from building 7 because it looked like it was going to collapse.  

I know conspiracies exist.  I totally get that humans get together to work secret works and spin lies to manipulate the masses.  I don't believe our government is above such things.  All that said, once you have to start discounting the testimony of numerous career firemen and fire chiefs in order to maintain a particular conspiracy theory, well, that's what taking leave of your senses and abandoning common sense look like to me.  

Edited by NeuroTypical

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

I know conspiracies exist. 

Which ones? 

One of my many issues with conspiracies is that people who believe them generally want to believe them, so they look for obscure evidence that fits their theory, not the other way around.  

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37 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Which ones? 

Usually, the ones totally not accompanied with background X-files music.  

The dictionary definition basically means "two or more people getting together for purposes of being up to no good".  Usually involves secrecy.  So yeah, I see conspiracies everywhere.  My daughters conspired to take my Easter candy one year.  Transnational Criminal Organizations conspire with corruptible border guards and legislators to move their drugs and slaves across borders.  If you hate speaking in church enough, you'll see the bishopric conspiring to trap you into a conversation that ends with you saying "um, ok, sure...".

Conspiracies that don't involve secrecy include things like gerrymandering and certain campaign donating activities.

 

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10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

.  If you hate speaking in church enough, you'll see the bishopric conspiring to trap you into a conversation that ends with you saying "um, ok, sure...".

 

I understand. And with my ego, they can't ask me to speak enough. Though in the years I've been in the church I haven't been asked to speak once. 

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25 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I understand. And with my ego, they can't ask me to speak enough. Though in the years I've been in the church I haven't been asked to speak once. 

Don't let that get you down, Gator.  There are a lot of people who would envy you.

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38 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

There are a lot of people who would envy you.

I can see why.

(yeah, being LDS hasn't really helped with the humility thing, has it?) 

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