Disfellowshipped, Reinstated and Lost

[Guest MormonGator]

I can offer you nothing but prayers my friend. Hold strong to Christ and the Book of Mormon. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

31 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I can offer you nothing but prayers my friend. Hold strong to Christ and the Book of Mormon. 

I second this.  I'm so sorry for your pain.  

[classylady]

Most people I know who have been active in the church know what the consequences are for being disfellowshipped, excommunicated, or placed on probation. I'm surprised you did not know what the consequences would be: ie. not partaking of the sacrament, not giving talks, or saying public prayers. Perhaps I am mistaken in your surprise at the consequences, or perhaps I misunderstood your post.

And, I agree it can be embarrassing.  But, it is the Lord's way.  It really requires a person to be humble.  And, I personally, would rather humble myself and do what is requested of me to become clean and worthy again than become prideful and allow my embarrassment and pride take me away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[mormonminded]

So what is my general advice to anyone finding themselves facing confession to a bishop and going through what I went through, which is basically a big name and shame process.....?  Don't do it.  I wouldn't do it again in hindsight.  I accomplished nothing really except to ruin my future interest in sitting in the same room with a man that called up my wife and asked if we were splitting up, or a Bishop that basically told me this would follow me everywhere I went in the church, or counselors that call out to me from across crowded rooms in order to stop me to "fellowship" me.  I have no interest anymore.  Repent to the Lord and you'll be better off for it.  At least you have a better shot at activity in the church.  

Vort, if I approached the teacher and asked not to be called on to pray, do I do that with every teacher that comes along, since there are probably three different teachers a month?  And each of them has a husband or wife, and I'm sure in the car on the way home they mention it half the time, since there are only a dozen or so families in our ward.  Does that really work?  I might as well do as one board member suggested and wear a sign on my head.  Actually, I have a better idea.  Let's brand an A on my forehead, because that is kinda how the process works in a small ward.    

As far as advice on this board, my general thought is if you haven't been through it, you don't know.  And I take it that most people here don't know.

Edited March 23, 2016 by mormonminded

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, mormonminded said:

As far as advice on this board, my general thought is if you haven't been through it, you don't know.  And I take it that most people here don't know.

That's a pretty bold assumption.  And an incorrect one.

I just wonder what you were expecting when you came here.  Perhaps you'd feel more comforted in the company of "yes men".  Or perhaps you expect it to be an echo chamber of people who would pat you on the back and say "there, there.  They shouldn't treat you that way."

I thought most of the posts were quite compassionate.  You made your case and asked what people thought about it.  They told the truth.  Don't get upset at people for simply doing what you asked.  What you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

I know at least a couple of people who break out in cold sweats at the thought of public speaking, even giving prayer. So they refuse. Nobody cares and it's nobody's business, anyway.

 

I agree with Jane. People think about us so much less than we think they do. Everyone is worried about their own troubles. 

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, mormonminded said:

So what is my general advice to anyone finding themselves facing confession to a bishop and going through what I went through, which is basically a big name and shame process.....?  Don't do it.  I wouldn't do it again in hindsight.  I accomplished nothing really except to ruin my future interest in sitting in the same room with a man that called up my wife and asked if we were splitting up, or a Bishop that basically told me this would follow me everywhere I went in the church, or counselors that call out to me from across crowded rooms in order to stop me to "fellowship" me.  I have no interest anymore.  Repent to the Lord and you'll be better off for it.  At least you have a better shot at activity in the church.  

Vort, if I approached the teacher and asked not to be called on to pray, do I do that with every teacher that comes along, since there are probably three different teachers a month?  And each of them has a husband or wife, and I'm sure in the car on the way home they mention it half the time, since there are only a dozen or so families in our ward.  Does that really work?  I might as well do as one board member suggested and wear a sign on my head.  Actually, I have a better idea.  Let's brand an A on my forehead, because that is kinda how the process works in a small ward.    

As far as advice on this board, my general thought is if you haven't been through it, you don't know.  And I take it that most people here don't know.

I'm not really sure knowing through experience is the key to being able to advise that you let it go and move on. The alternative, of course, is to go inactive, lose your testimony, turn bitter against the church, and condemn yourself. Would you rather we advise that?

I don't expect anyone thinks what happened based on your description was perfect. I don't, myself, feel that, based on the information given, it was handled correctly. But that is neither here nor there. It doesn't matter if you were wronged or not. Your job is to forgive and forget and to remain faithful to God and His kingdom on earth.

In the big picture view, being able to progress in the church and become a bishop or stake president someday is entirely irrelevant. In the big picture view the annotations on our record or not won't matter. If you approach this with an eternal perspective then your path is clear. It may well be uncomfortable and unfair. But whose life isn't uncomfortable and unfair?

You just aren't very likely to get support for anger, bitterness, inactivity, and walking away from the processes and programs established by the Lord here. Whether we've been through the exact thing that you have or not does not change that reality.

Edited March 23, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, mormonminded said:

So what is my general advice to anyone finding themselves facing confession to a bishop and going through what I went through, which is basically a big name and shame process.....?  Don't do it.  I wouldn't do it again in hindsight.  I accomplished nothing really except to ruin my future interest in sitting in the same room with a man that called up my wife and asked if we were splitting up, or a Bishop that basically told me this would follow me everywhere I went in the church, or counselors that call out to me from across crowded rooms in order to stop me to "fellowship" me.  I have no interest anymore.  Repent to the Lord and you'll be better off for it.  At least you have a better shot at activity in the church.  

Vort, if I approached the teacher and asked not to be called on to pray, do I do that with every teacher that comes along, since there are probably three different teachers a month?  And each of them has a husband or wife, and I'm sure in the car on the way home they mention it half the time, since there are only a dozen or so families in our ward.  Does that really work?  I might as well do as one board member suggested and wear a sign on my head.  Actually, I have a better idea.  Let's brand an A on my forehead, because that is kinda how the process works in a small ward.    

As far as advice on this board, my general thought is if you haven't been through it, you don't know.  And I take it that most people here don't know.

I am hearing a whole lot of pride and very little humility in your post...  You basically saying because it didn't go the way you expected that the process (set up by God through his called Leaders) must therefore be wrong... Worst you are counseling others not to follow the instructions and directions of the Lord, but to instead follow you.

Has it ever cross your mind that your disfellowshipping went exactly the way the Lord wanted?  That the things that happened, happened because the Lord is using it as a test of your faithfulness? Your ability to forgive? Your ability to submit to the will of God even when you don't understand it?  I would advise you to ponder that possibly and ask yourself are you passing or failing this test.

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by estradling75

[omegaseamaster75]

I'll take the OP's side on this one, I will make some assumptions about it hopefully he will come on and correct me. I will assume that the OP is currently an endowed member married in the temple. Maybe even served a mission but that is neither here nor there.

Bishops can disfellowship NON endowed members only. If you have been through the temple you see someone at the stake level. The OP said it was an old sin, one that was not repeated and abandoned long ago. Since his bishop went through the trouble of disfellowshipping him it is fair to say that this sin occurred pre endowment. If this is the case I will go out on a limb and say that the bishop grossly overstepped by disfellowshipping him. It can't be color by numbers, every sin needs to be looked at individually. Time, place, circumstance, etc.

 

[mormonminded]

Of course it's crossed my mind a hundred times if the nature of this process was how the Lord intended, and I've prayed and thought about it daily.  I've asked myself and prayed about how this really helps me.  I've tried to be humble and do as the Bishop asked, attended church every week, read my scriptures, etc. etc.    

And I keep coming back to the same thing.  How does this process really help a person, esp. for something that happened years in the past.  My honest conclusion in hindsight is that the Church has found that for certain sins, the best deterrent is a really painful and shaming process so that a person won't repeat the sin again for fear of the process itself or won't do it in the first place due to the fear of having to tell a room full of men about it.   The Catholic "Hail Mary" approach isn't a great deterrent.   And maybe the LDS approach works for a lot of folks - I was hoping someone could say that "Hey, I've been through a Court and I thought it was a tremendous healing experience for me".  A friendly stake president (not involved in my process) told me that the ones he'd been in charge of had been great spiritual experiences for the member disciplined, but I felt a lot of what he said was just for the purpose of trying to make me feel better about it all.  So I thought I'd ask here for someone who has really been through it. No such luck though.  I guess very few go through it, or they don't read these boards, or they don't want to talk about it.  Makes me wonder where all the members are that go through this? 

My initial intention in posting to this board was to seek out folks who (a) had been through a disciplinary process and see if their leaders had given them any good advice about why it would help, and how it helped them or (b) who have been a Bishop or Stake President and counseled members in this regard.  My Bishops in this case were both brand new and inexperienced, and seemed more intent on carrying out the process than discussing anything about it, partly because I am pretty sure it was their first time in both cases and they didn't have a lot of good advice.   The only encouragement was to just say "hang in there".    They didn't make an attempt to explain why the process was necessary, they never offered advice or counsel other than to say read your scripture, pray and keep coming to church (oh, and pay your tithing), and when I asked questions about the process, I was explicitly told they weren't appropriate and that questions like that weren't a sign of true repentance and could delay the process.  I was explicitly told the process could last for years, in fact, if I kept asking questions like "how many people are being told about this outside of the council".  That seems like a pretty reasonable question to me.  I'd like to know if this is being broadcast in PEC or Ward Council meetings.  

From the many postings here, none of them seem to be from a position of significant direct experience with the process per as, other than to say it is ordained of the Lord and so whatever happens happens, and that was meant to be.   Except I'm not necessarily sure that's how it works.  

We all only get one Bishop, so if we get a newbie, or one with a chip on his shoulder, or who is just a hard case, it can have a big negative impact on how we feel about ourselves and the church.  Yes, we get to decide alot of it on our own, but imagine you have a boss at work that tells you after a big screw-up at the office that he's going to be putting this in your confidential permanent file, that he's telling all of your line managers about it, and that anytime you are up for a new position it will be reviewed as part of the process.  Bet you aren't as excited about the job anymore.  You may still believe in your career, but you start to look pretty hard at how committed you are to that particular firm.  

[Sadliers]

It's not fun being judged like that. Those that do it aren't grasping the gospel. But why should that effect your relationship with Christ? Are you coming to church to be in a club or to worship God? Does the unrightous behavior of members dictate whether or not Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith? Do their actions prove whether or not the Book of Mormon was brought forth by the power of God?

 

You are the reason I gave my introduction in another thread. I gave the intro in hopes that it would help you specifically. Had it not been for this I would have kept it to myself. I was in a similar type of situation of being judged because of divorce and chose a better route than previously. You may not believe me but you're missing the Spirit in your life. There is a potential in the gospel which will give you an exhilaration that has not been experienced. It sounds like you may have hit bottom and that's a good time to try something different since what has already been tried resulted in where you are. It is not an easy journey and few will make it but I'm convinced that the reason more won't make it is because they don't know how to get there from where they are. They also think that since they've been in the church all their life then they've experienced the best it has to offer. Far from it! That's a rut, not progress. That "unspeakable joy" is a joy so intense that one cannot speak and so great that merely trying to describe it to those that haven't experienced it will not convey the depth and intensity of it. 

 

If you don't mind me being so bold but speaking also from personal experience, the idea that merely doing the outward actions makes one righteous is where you're stuck and where I was stuck. We are determined to be 'righteous' if our home teaching numbers are high and our attendance is perfect. That is the same incorrect judgment that leads to the judging you're now experiencing - it's all on outward appearance. The Lord does not judge on outward appearance but rather judges the heart (1 Samuel 16:7). However when we personally get caught up in doing the outward appearances without changing the heart then we are doing as the Pharisees had done. If we couple that with pride in our beliefs then we ARE a Pharisee. Gotta change the heart and make our true desires to be in accordance with pleasing God, not ignorantly offending Him.

 

I am 48 and a life long member. I even served a mission, been sealed, served in various callings, and so forth. But with all that it wasn't until last week that I finally know what repentance is. I stumbled through repentance without truly knowing what it was as detailed in my intro. Repentance is not merely confessing and avoiding. Repentance is to change the heart so that we won't even have the desire to commit the sin again. Sin is anything we do that offends the Spirit - it isn't just the commandments. Take a heated debate with the wife - we offended the Spirit no matter who was right and who was wrong. That was a sin and it didn't matter if we were right. If we are truly repentant then we will apologize to our wife for becoming angry at her (even if no unkind words were said), we will apologize to God for offending Him and the eternal laws, we will come up with a plan on how to avoid becoming angry again, we will role play the 'better choice' so that we can act when the time comes, and we try changing our heart so that we will not feel anger in that type of situation again. That's a true repentance. Now compare that with the "normal" procedure of apologizing because we hurt the wife and only resolve that we'll just bite our tongue next time. On the outward both scenarios look like repentance. But inside only the first scenario is true repentance. God looks on our heart and sees that as plain as day. If we are to come to God in righteousness then we need to practice true repentance in all aspects of life and every time we do something that causes the Spirit to withdraw from us.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Sadliers

[estradling75]

11 minutes ago, mormonminded said:

Of course it's crossed my mind a hundred times if the nature of this process was how the Lord intended, and I've prayed and thought about it daily.  I've asked myself and prayed about how this really helps me.  I've tried to be humble and do as the Bishop asked, attended church every week, read my scriptures, etc. etc.    

And I keep coming back to the same thing.  How does this process really help a person, esp. for something that happened years in the past.  My honest conclusion in hindsight is that the Church has found that for certain sins, the best deterrent is a really painful and shaming process so that a person won't repeat the sin again for fear of the process itself or won't do it in the first place due to the fear of having to tell a room full of men about it.   The Catholic "Hail Mary" approach isn't a great deterrent.   And maybe the LDS approach works for a lot of folks - I was hoping someone could say that "Hey, I've been through a Court and I thought it was a tremendous healing experience for me".  A friendly stake president (not involved in my process) told me that the ones he'd been in charge of had been great spiritual experiences for the member disciplined, but I felt a lot of what he said was just for the purpose of trying to make me feel better about it all.  So I thought I'd ask here for someone who has really been through it. No such luck though.  I guess very few go through it, or they don't read these boards, or they don't want to talk about it.  Makes me wonder where all the members are that go through this? 

My initial intention in posting to this board was to seek out folks who (a) had been through a disciplinary process and see if their leaders had given them any good advice about why it would help, and how it helped them or (b) who have been a Bishop or Stake President and counseled members in this regard.  My Bishops in this case were both brand new and inexperienced, and seemed more intent on carrying out the process than discussing anything about it, partly because I am pretty sure it was their first time in both cases and they didn't have a lot of good advice.   The only encouragement was to just say "hang in there".    They didn't make an attempt to explain why the process was necessary, they never offered advice or counsel other than to say read your scripture, pray and keep coming to church (oh, and pay your tithing), and when I asked questions about the process, I was explicitly told they weren't appropriate and that questions like that weren't a sign of true repentance and could delay the process.  I was explicitly told the process could last for years, in fact, if I kept asking questions like "how many people are being told about this outside of the council".  That seems like a pretty reasonable question to me.  I'd like to know if this is being broadcast in PEC or Ward Council meetings.  

From the many postings here, none of them seem to be from a position of significant direct experience with the process per as, other than to say it is ordained of the Lord and so whatever happens happens, and that was meant to be.   Except I'm not necessarily sure that's how it works.  

We all only get one Bishop, so if we get a newbie, or one with a chip on his shoulder, or who is just a hard case, it can have a big negative impact on how we feel about ourselves and the church.  Yes, we get to decide alot of it on our own, but imagine you have a boss at work that tells you after a big screw-up at the office that he's going to be putting this in your confidential permanent file, that he's telling all of your line managers about it, and that anytime you are up for a new position it will be reviewed as part of the process.  Bet you aren't as excited about the job anymore.  You may still believe in your career, but you start to look pretty hard at how committed you are to that particular firm.  

And yet this is exactly the way the Lord set up his Church (assuming of course you believe)... Do you think the Lord knows what he is doing when he calls flawed, inexperienced people to positions of authority?  Do you think he doesn't understand exactly what is going to happen?  Do you think he needs your council on how to do it better?

Sadliers correctly pointed out that repentance isn't about going through some process... Its about having a change of heart.  As I have stated a few times I have seen Church Courts help bring to past this change of heart in many people... But you don't see that because it didn't happen for you, so you don't believe it.

Now maybe the bishop made a mistake in putting you through the process, that is not my judgement to make.  But it is clear that it is a trial for you.  You need to make the choice to forgive (as the scripture direct) and let it go.  And I realize that forgiving isn't easy, because like repentance it requires a change of heart.  But only you can make the choice to do that.

 

[omegaseamaster75]

10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Now maybe the bishop made a mistake in putting you through the process, that is not my judgement to make.  But it is clear that it is a trial for you.  You need to make the choice to forgive (as the scripture direct) and let it go.  And I realize that forgiving isn't easy, because like repentance it requires a change of heart.  But only you can make the choice to do that.

 

This is great advice. Our leaders are not perfect and I am sure that your bishop did what he thought was the right thing. Right or wrong he was/is the bishop.

Bottom line you did something, you felt bad enough to confess to your leader (clearly this was something that was not on the home repentance program) and this was the consequence of that action. 

I remember having a conversation with my stake pres many years ago without going into to much detail he said "Brother Omega this experience will give you perspective and compassion that other members don't have and will serve you as you grow in the church"

[mormonminded]

So, I'll say this as a final thought and then I'll sign off.  I don't want to be accused of being anti-mormon.  Sadliers - thank you for your thoughts.  You are one of the first posters with anything to say that feels anything like understanding.( I do appreciate a PM from another poster that will remain nameless.)  Sadliers, I know Depression.  This process has made me honestly think seriously about suicide.  If you understand the darkness of depression, and I do, you'll know why a process like this can push you far deeper down the dark tunnel than you ever want to go.  But those that don't understand it won't ever get it.   The only church authority that has ever seemed to get it, or discuss it openly, is Elder Ballard.  My bishop actually told me that while I was suffering from depression I may not be able to repent. And major depressive disorder can last  for a lifetime.  How's that for a kick in the teeth.  Again, he's not a bad guy, he just didn't understand what depression is or how dark it can get.  I'm now reinstated, so that part of it is in the past, but there was a month or two that my wife was actually following me very closely because of how low I was and she was afraid I might do something stupid.  Funny thing is, it had nothing to do with the sin, and everything to do with how people love to judge when they just don't understand.  

Edited March 23, 2016 by estradling75
hide the post hide the quote

[Vort]

On 3/22/2016 at 7:54 AM, mormonminded said:

I am interested in advice and other people's stories.

Brother, your very first sentence was asking for advice. We have given you advice. You are not required to take it, or even to like it. But we have given you what you requested, and we have done so with the best of intentions. We cannot possibly judge whether this bishop was right or wrong. We sympathize with you; all of us are repentant sinners trying to strengthen our connection with God. I daresay all of us have been offended at the actions of Church leaders and other members at times. Your trial is unique only in that it is yours. What you have described is a variation on a universal theme.

We have all had the bitter trial of having to humble ourselves, and many of us have come through those trials better for the experience, and even thankful we had it. Let this be your trial of humility. Be our friend and brother, and have fellowship with us. (Not necessarily on LDS.net, but in Church.) Don't let this experience embitter you.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, mormonminded said:

 My bishop actually told me that while I was suffering from depression I may not be able to repent

That's what you heard, but I'm almost certain that's not what he said. I have clinical depression. When it's really, really bad my thoughts and perception are so distorted, that I've had to learn not to trust myself to see things as they are during those times.

[Jane_Doe]

@mormonminded

Purpose of disfellowshipment, why, the blessings, restoration, etc: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1990/09/a-chance-to-start-over-church-disciplinary-councils-and-the-restoration-of-blessings?lang=eng

Edited March 23, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Sadliers]

There's actually another apostle that also spoke on depression and it was Elder Holland. It was in General Conference a few years ago. He also went through it and gave his advice regarding it. 

 

As for me I know what got me there: anger. There was a lawyer/bishop that did dishonest tricks in court that put me in peril and a court commissioner that went along with it. The anger allowed Satan to get in and it took me down to the black abyss. Quite frankly I don't think there was any advice that could have helped me pull out of it. Hope was lost. Getting up in the morning was a burden and doing anything was worse. Even favorite activities had no appeal.

 

There was one key thing that was very instrumental in helping me pull out of it. I went to a lecture regarding dreams an visions of "tent cities". Many dreams and visions were shared regarding a chaotic USA in which the Lord would call His people to places of safety (which was being called "tent cities") before the chaos strikes. It was pointed out that a person had to have some way to survive in such a scenario and that's where the church's recommendation for a year supply of food would be crucial. That caused enough intrigue that I began studying it more. Then I began storing food. That little bit of though and idea gave a little bit of hope and a goal. It was just a wee bit and I didn't even realize it at the time. As I began to study more on it and take further steps to get a year supply things began improving almost imperceptibly. After getting a little food and seeing it stored there arose a desire to get a little more. Just a bucket here and a bag there. After about three months it occurred to me that I was no longer in the depression! I'm still not fully sure how I got out but I think it was from that glimmer of hope in something and then finding enough energy to take one step toward the goal and seeing one simple accomplishment. 

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Sadliers said:

After getting a little food and seeing it stored there arose a desire to get a little more. Just a bucket here and a bag there.

Gardening seems to be my best possibility for the current apartment.  Since I have the non-climate-controlled ground floor area (that still stays impressively cool in the summer) and a 180x80 vacant lot that...well...the landlord says I can do whatever I want with as long as he doesn't have to mow it himself or deal with the city complaining about it, I'm looking into root cellar storage methods and trying to decide the best ways to grow things that will keep well that way.  

As a bonus, they say playing in fresh dirt is a good antidepressant.

[Just_A_Guy]

I've never been disfellowshipped, but have been on informal probation in two different wards.  A couple of observations:

1) The God who gave us our current church discipline system, is the God who gave ancient Israel a much more publicly punitive system of "shunning" for offenses (or even nonoffenses) that were far more trivial in nature.  The overarching point of all that system was:  as painful as it is to be separated from the community, sin creates a separation from God that is even more painful.  If I don't truly believe, and feel, this; then my repentance isn't done yet.

2)  I've been in the position of having to decline prayers.  It's not fun.  Teachers should *not* be calling on people to pray without prior notice--best practice is to ask for a volunteer and, if none, do it yourself.  Your bishop may need to drop a reminder to your Sunday School President about this.

3)  The more comfortable I get into my natural skin--which is as a sinner trying to reform, not as a guy who has his act together--the less I really care about what my ward thinks of me.  I'm still not ready to casually mention my porn problem in Sunday School; but I think I could carry on with my activity if it somehow became common knowledge.

4)  What does it even mean to think that one has "tremendous potential in the church"?  Speaking for myself--all I want is to be useful; and if that's by cleaning the toilets on Saturday--so be it.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

5 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Bishops can disfellowship NON endowed members only.

Where is the official source for this?  I know a member of my family who was disfellowshipped when he'd been sealed for over 10 years.

[omegaseamaster75]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Where is the official source for this?  I know a member of my family who was disfellowshipped when he'd been sealed for over 10 years.

I am mistaken, the bishop has authority over church discipline in the ward, except the excommunication of a man who holds the melchizedek priesthood.

So my reading of HB 1 is that disfellowshipping does fall under the purview of the bishop. My previous post was an assumption made by me without research, and well you know what it means when you assume...

[NightSG]

38 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

4)  What does it even mean to think that one has "tremendous potential in the church"?

Well, if you broke all the atomic bonds in a 200 pound person simultaneously, it should release energy on the order of 2,000 megatons of TNT.  That's pretty tremendous potential, IMO.

Just think; if you could learn to control all your atoms at that level, you could turn yourself into an 8 mile diameter fireball, and level buildings over 40 miles away.

[Guest]

Makes you wonder how much mass a mustard seed sized grain of "faith" has.