(Another) teaching in RS question


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48 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

So it is arrogant to receive a witness from the Spirit?

Sadlier asked this of omega, omega didn't say it.

 

I think it's arrogant to think you can feel to Spirit better than others in regards to things you have no stewardship over. It's arrogant to feel that you have a special ability over others to feel the Spirit at all. Likely there are those who can as well or better, but keep it to themselves. It reminds me of a family member I've mentioned here who has infamously said, "I have the gift of discernment so I know I'm right." in order to win/end an argument.

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31 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

It reminds me of a family member I've mentioned here who has infamously said, "I have the gift of discernment so I know I'm right." in order to win/end an argument.

Replies to "I have the gift of discernment.":

  • How exactly do you un-earn a mint, and why is it a gift to be able to?
  • Are these candy mints, or like, a US mint?  Or maybe the Franklin Mint (I would love to un-earn them).  (But if the mint were an Andes Candies mint, I would NOT want to dis-earn that.)
  • Is there effort involved in un-earning something?  If so, is it more or less effort than earning?
  • Do you have to go get a new mint before your gift can be re-used?  What happens when you run out of mints?

(I was once kicked out of a history class for being snarky, so this isn't a new problem.)

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1 hour ago, Eowyn said:

it's arrogant to think you can feel to Spirit better than others in regards to things you have no stewardship over.

And this is the crux of the issue: whose stewardship is it? When God gives us a stewardship, He does not micromanage us, unless we're on the verge of stepping off the proverbial cliff. If we give someone a stewardship, like teaching in a Relief Society or a quorum, then our job is to step back and let the steward do the job. If the steward is getting close to the edge of the cliff, then we take him aside and gently, lovingly, tell him there's a problem, what it is, and let him get back to work.

To do otherwise, as described in the OP, is to infringe on the steward's rights, and we will be held to account for that. A stewardship is to grow with (or in). It is not necessarily to be perfect in. I know of only one Stewardship that required perfection, and it wasn't Relief Society instructor.

Lehi

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3 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

@ Sadliers You don't see the irony in my comment do you?

 

I assume you are referring to this one:

"So you are the self proclaimed expert on feeling the spirit? If you didn't feel the spirit then no one did? That's pretty arrogant. Do you think we all feel the spirit the same way? or that we should? Or that if it is not your interpretation then we must be wrong? That we don't know God? My faith and repentance has not been sufficient"

 

One at a time. "self proclaimed expert"? LOL! That is definitely secular mentality and grossly prideful! Either a person receives from God or they don't. And if they receive then it may be anywhere from seldom to continually. In God's world there is no "expert" except Him - we are all just babes in knowledge and, therefore, have no grounds to conclude that one is above another since He is the standard. If you knew the Spirit then you would have realized that. 

"If you didn't feel the Spirit then no one did?" That question reveals a lack of knowledge regarding the Spirit. The Spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is the same Spirit that inspired Adam clear down to every believer today. There is one way that the Spirit feels, not numerous, and that feeling will vary in intensity. Human emotions and false spirits will not feel the same. Apparently you did not understand what the Lord was saying in D&C 50 regarding how those that listen by the Spirit will receive that which is preached by the Spirit. When it is not preached by the Spirit then it cannot be received by the Spirit and the Spirit will reveal why. If you knew the Spirit then you would have known that.

"That's pretty arrogant". If we're dealing with secular learning then the claim is valid. But we're not dealing with secular learning but rather with God. It is not arrogant to state what God has revealed. And it is not arrogant to observe when the Spirit is not testifying when others speak. If they want the Spirit to testify then they need to take that matter up with God, not the listeners. Once again, your comment reveals a lack of understanding of the Spirit. 

"Do you think we all feel the spirit the same way?" I don't think we do, I know we do. If you knew the Spirit then you would have known that the answer is an unmistakable "yes". If you're feeling something else then it is not the Spirit.

"Or that we should?" If it is the Holy Spirit then absolutely! Why would you think otherwise unless you don't know the Spirit?

"If it is not your interpretation [...]" Again, you reveal that you don't know the Spirit. What is received from God is not my interpretation. And that isn't just me but applies to everyone. If one is so prideful as to suppose that it is their idea or interpretation then that is pride and the Spirit withdraws, thus they are only left to their interpretations. If you knew the Spirit then you would have known that, too. 

"[...] then we must be wrong?" If it is not of God then is it right? Why do you suppose that God will give different answers?

"That we don't know God". How can one know God if they don't know Him? The Spirit is God - if one doesn't know the Spirit then how can they know God? If they don't receive by the Spirit then everything is only belief and there is no knowledge. You have taken the course of attempting to learn God as though God is a secular subject but that is not how one comes to know God. Knowing God comes through faith and repentance. Even that must be revealed by the Spirit so failing to know the Spirit greatly hinders the ability to even get the basics down. 

 I don't know why you are fighting against the Spirit but I would invite you to learn the Spirit and to come to God. Galatians 5 and D&C 50 is a great starter unless the pride continues to be a hindrance. But as for me I do know in whom I have trusted. 

Edited by Sadliers
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14 minutes ago, Sadliers said:

In God's world there is no "expert" except Him - we are all just babes in knowledge and, therefore, have no grounds to conclude that one is above another since He is the standard. If you knew the Spirit then you would have realized that. 

Yet you put yourself above me. Saying that I do not know the spirit and that you do.

16 minutes ago, Sadliers said:

"If you didn't feel the Spirit then no one did?" That question reveals a lack of knowledge regarding the Spirit. The Spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is the same Spirit that inspired Adam clear down to every believer today. There is one way that the Spirit feels, not numerous, and that feeling will vary in intensity. Human emotions and false spirits will not feel the same. Apparently you did not understand what the Lord was saying in D&C 50 regarding how those that listen by the Spirit will receive that which is preached by the Spirit. When it is not preached by the Spirit then it cannot be received by the Spirit and the Spirit will reveal why. If you knew the Spirit then you would have known that.

Funny how two members of the church will read the same scripture, both feel the spirit and both have different takes on what it means.

16 minutes ago, Sadliers said:

"Do you think we all feel the spirit the same way?" I don't think we do, I know we do. If you knew the Spirit then you would have known that the answer is an unmistakable "yes". If you're feeling something else then it is not the Spirit.

Really? you really think that you feel the spirit the same way that I do? So the conclusion is that what you are feeling is correct and what I am feeling is wrong....because I don't know the spirit.

 

18 minutes ago, Sadliers said:

But as for me I do know in whom I have trusted.

uh yourself?

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21 hours ago, dahlia said:

Last month, one of the new leadership members sent me a long email with ideas for the lesson. [...] Now I get another long email for next month's lesson. ???  

Thoughts?

I don't get why this is hard.  I'd consider just briefly scanning through these emails, if I saw anything worth including I'd include it.  If I didn't, I wouldn't.  

Next move is hers.  If she asks you 'what about my email', answer with something like "Thanks!  I read through it as I was preparing my lesson."  Make it genuine.  Even if all you can do is appreciate what you think may be a positive motivation behind her emails.   Leave it at that.  I find nothing saps another person's helpful energy like empty silence.  

Does this lady attend your class?  

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I see Sadlers point about teachers not using the spirit because I teach for a living and I taught without the spirit for a long time. In fact, although I pray over lessons (having taken Teaching No Greater Calling), I still struggle to teach more with the spirit and less as though I am preparing students for an exam. This tendency is a failing with professional teachers especially me! But I am fighting the tendency hard! Must do better! Not saying, you do this Dahlia! Don't get me wrong!

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10 hours ago, Sadliers said:

The RS president is ordained to the calling and, if she is seeking the Spirit, will receive directions on what needs changed. Why do you suppose that you're in a position to also challenge what the RS President received from the Spirit?

She's not the president, she's one of the counselors or whatever they are called. And I will challenge her because I am an adult with a mind, about 25 years of life experience on her, and professional experience teaching adults. 

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Wow, so many comments!  Thanks everyone - and hi back to all y'all!

I have been ignoring the emails. I think that works for now, though I'm not sure how long that will last. 

The other week we had a Hindu lady talk to the class. I think we are rather broad about what we can use in RS. I have used prayers from other traditions, quotes from a variety of people in and out of the Church, and even used Martin Luther King's 'Letter from Birmingham Jail.' I use the manual and other resources (such as Conference talks and Ensign articles) from lds.org.  As a convert (one they trusted with giving lessons, mind you), I enjoy asking them to fill in some of the areas with which I am unfamiliar, which helps me learn and usually results in a good discussion. I think I am doing what I'm supposed to do when I prep for and present the lesson.

As for feeling the spirit, I'm not sure what that means for me. I can be overcome with sadness or happiness when preparing my lessons. I get overwhelmed when I read about the growth of the Church or Joseph Smith's life. I am so happy to be a member of this Church, but I am happy because I know, not because I feel.

I enjoy giving the lesson and would like to continue to do so, however, if this woman doesn't leave me alone, I'm two seconds from leaving RS (in fact, another woman told me she was surprised I hadn't stopped coming long ago) because I don't need the drama and I learn more from reading on my own that I do from superficial approaches to doctrine and Church history.

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16 minutes ago, dahlia said:

I learn more from reading on my own that I do from superficial approaches to doctrine and Church history.

That's what we are supposed to do: individual reading, study, meditation, reflection, prayer, and thinking.

The problem is, too few of us do that. We're not alone: I used to sell Bible reference books door-to-door in Texas, Virginia, and Kentucky. I met people in their homes, and talked to them about religious topics for fourteen hours a day. They knew little or nothing about what their churches taught, unless the pastor had mentioned it in his last sermon. (Well, that's not strictly accurate: they knew "Mormons" were cultists and going to hell.)

Thinking is hard work. Reflection is not a mindless thing. Reading is not as much fun as watching Gilmore Girls. Letting someone else do that tough stuff is easier than doing it yourself.

I have said that Sunday School is an apostate organization. Not that it teaches bad doctrine, not that it doesn't help us learn and be better, but because it is a crutch for the Saints who should be doing all this in their families. It is an excuse for fathers and mothers to "let George do it." But there is no magic: it isn't going to be a Sunday School teacher, or a Relief Society teacher who makes the difference: it'll be Mom'n'Dad, it'll be a Laurel or a deacon who makes the effort himself to know and internalize the Gospel of Jesus Christ — to be converted.

While the Relief Society is modeled on the Priesthood, and we learn that a president of a quorum (or society) has the duty to sit in counsel with his quorum (or Society) members and teach them their duty, "doctrine" is not "duty" and that's not what the Lord meant when He gave us that commandment. We could be spending our quorum/society time learning to serve, planning to serve, preparing to serve both the Lord and His children (see Benjamin's speech). But we are lazy, we don't learn the Gospel in our homes, where the Lord has commanded us to learn it, so we waste our time in Church meetings learning faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, Baptism by immersion, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Prophets and Apostles have told us that it is a parent's duty to teach his children the Gospel. We have heard for generations that we must study the Gospel, but we don't do it any more than we store food, clothing and money against the rainy day. We don't read the scriptures as we should. We fail to listen and re-read conference talks.

Yes, this is somewhat hyperbolic, but in essence, it is true: Israel is stiff-necked people, slow to head the word of the Lord, and quick to do iniquity.

Lehi

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25 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

but because it is a crutch for the Saints who should be doing all this in their families. It is an excuse for fathers and mothers to "let George do it." 

Great point Lehi. Church/Church Programs, are to help aid in the teaching of our families, but not be a substitute/replacement for doing it ourselves first. 

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Perhaps I am wrong, convert here, but if one stops going to relief society does that threaten one's temple recommend? I, no one get excited!, only attended sacrament when I first started attending church in my current location. I did not get the 'keeping the sabbath' thing. Some People in my ward were a bit hostile. 

 

 

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On 4/1/2016 at 10:04 PM, dahlia said:

She's not the president, she's one of the counselors or whatever they are called. And I will challenge her because I am an adult with a mind, about 25 years of life experience on her, and professional experience teaching adults. 

But you aren't challenging her. You said that if she doesn't stop, you are going to quit RS. I don't understand how quitting RS is challenging her. 

 

23 hours ago, dahlia said:

I enjoy giving the lesson and would like to continue to do so, however, if this woman doesn't leave me alone, I'm two seconds from leaving RS (in fact, another woman told me she was surprised I hadn't stopped coming long ago) because I don't need the drama and I learn more from reading on my own that I do from superficial approaches to doctrine and Church history.

I guess I'm confused on why you feel that her emails are hostile. Do you think asking her about them or talking to her about them is inappropriate? Why? 

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Perhaps I am wrong, convert here, but if one stops going to relief society does that threaten one's temple recommend? I, no one get excited!, only attended sacrament when I first started attending church in my current location. I did not get the 'keeping the sabbath' thing. Some People in my ward were a bit hostile.

We are under covenant to attend Sacrament Meeting (for all), and Priesthood Meeting (for men). Other meetings are optional, but strongly recommended.

A Temple Recommend interview covers this, but the question is more vague: "Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?"

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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17 hours ago, LeSellers said:

We are under covenant to attend Sacrament Meeting (for all), and Priesthood Meeting (for men). Other meetings are optional, but strongly recommended.

I've heard this, but never saw it in print in an official source.

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17 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Temple recommend interview, for one.

The question as I remember it is "Do you strive to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings ..."  (emphasis mine).  That doesn't single out Sacrament and Priesthood as especially "covenanted" than other meetings.  Obviously partaking of the Sacrament is the most important, but not necessarily the 70 min meeting itself.

I wasn't saying that we don't need to attend any meetings.  Quite the opposite.  I was saying that we are "supposed to" attend ALL of them.

Edited by Guest
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One of the counselors has supervisory responsibility for all the lessons.   If that is who is sending you the emails, she may be trying to help you understand how to teach the lessons.  For instance, one of the guidelines in teaching in the church is to use only material from church publications.   There is often lots of extra material that is useful and even exhilarating, but we still don't use it in church classes as we are supposed to be teaching what the Lord wants taught, and the direction helps keep the doctrine pure.    So be sure to pray about the suggestions made and about what you teach instead of it.

Also, please don't stop attending RS if you are released, or counseled.   It might seem judgmental, but it doesn't mean you are a bad RS teacher or a bad person.   It just means that it isn't working somehow.   Members can seek the Lords inspiration and help to fix whatever the leader desires them to do differently, or sometimes members cannot make the change.   But that shouldn't mean rejection of the whole program.  Please do not let any conflict with other church members stop you from enjoying the blessings of being where Heavenly Father wants you to be, doing what He wants you to do. 

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