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17 hours ago, Eowyn said:

Free stuff plus fat-burning European chocolate is a platform I could get behind. 

 

I've been studying Denmark lately, having recently discovered some Danish lineage. They are a highly socialist country, and rated the happiest in the world. They pay 43-58% taxes (or something along those lines), too.

I've been to Denmark and they are a lovely people. I really admired their honor system for paying on the subway system. Everyone seemed very honest.

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On April 7, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Eowyn said:

I think there are a lot of you. The great majority of my husband's large family are democratic socialists, and church members. 

Personally I'm having  political identity crisis. 

I'm sorry you are having a political crisis.  I'm sure you can find what you are looking for if you do your research.  If I can help, let me know.  

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On April 7, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Vort said:

It's a two-way street. Just as you expect other Latter-day Saints to allow not only your beliefs but the possibility (however remote) that you are right and they are wrong, so you need to allow them their beliefs and grant the possibility (however remote) that they are right and you are wrong. If there is one common trait I have seen among politically "progressive" Latter-day Saints, and especially among the self-identifying "Gen-Xers", it is this pervasive faith in their own infallibility and their conviction that everyone over the age of 45 is hopelessly ignorant and doesn't see the world clearly -- which, of course, they themselves do.

I am open-minded.  I think most young people I have met are too.  Trouble is you can't deny people their own experiences and that's what I feel the most coming from people who oppose my position - it's not about arguing ideology as much as I'm tired of people telling me that I haven't experienced what I have because it doesn't match their political beliefs.  

Many people talk about how they want lower taxes and smaller government, but the studies I've read, and the experiences I've had don't show that lower taxes and smaller government support growth.  As a matter of fact they hinder statewide growth.  Just like lower taxes for the wealthy doesn't produce more jobs.  Trickle down economics isn't a reality, the wealthy only speculate more with it instead of passing it down to their employees.  And I'm not just 'saying' these things because of beliefs.  I've read the graphs, I've seen the data, I've experienced my life.  I would post all my resources here if my objective for this thread was to teach people, but it's not.

I suppose the point is this - talk is just talk unless both parties are willing to examine the evidence.  

My thread clearly states from the beginning that I am looking for people who already agree with me, not to convince those who don't otherwise. :)  

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On April 7, 2016 at 0:44 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

Have you seen this page on Facebook "LDS Dems" :)  

https://www.facebook.com/ldsdems/?fref=nf

I don't think of myself as Democrat or Republican, but Liberal?  Oh yes.  I am rooting for Bernie!  So you and I probably have a lot in common.  

You might also like: Latter Day Saints for Racial Equality

https://www.facebook.com/groups/825094047536719/

Welcome to LDS.net. 

 

Thank you for the Facebook page references.  I have liked both pages.  I hope to find more community by following them.  

Here are a couple I'm already following that YOU may be interested in: 

https://www.facebook.com/Mormons-4-Bernie-1455447164760816/?fref=ts

https://www.facebook.com/ProgressiveMormonTeachings/?fref=ts

Yea, I don't like the term liberal at all.  It seems to suggest I have 'liberal' values, which I don't.  I have conservative values for MYSELF as far as no drinking, no smoking, no sex outside marriage, no rated-R movies, never miss a Sunday etc..  etc... so I don't like the term 'liberal' at all because it seems to connote a godlessness that I reject as a label.

Bernie is so unique that I don't think he really fits the typical party structure, thank goodness.  I love that he isn't taking big money or giving big money and that his home is a modest $300K instead of being worth millions - those things makes ALL the difference to me, and decades of consistency that make him a candidate of such high integrity it's undeniable.    

Of course as a teacher I'm also such a big proponent for public education - and we all KNOW we need to make some big changes in that area.  Etc... etc...

LiterateParakeet, it is a pleasure to mke your aquantaince. :)  I'd be interested in learning more about how you feel in your ward, how they treat you, how vocal you are about you political opinions, if you hear right-wing jargon in your chapel and if you ever say anything about it or not, and if you find yourself feeling lonely at all. ???? 

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On April 7, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Backroads said:

I'm sympathetic to a lot of liberal views. I just don't see them all as feasible, at least not at the expense of other things.

Details and symantics, really. We can all get along.

 

Yea I think that' what's so frustrating.  The things we seem to find the money for compared with the things that aren't feasible doesn't seem to make sense to me or match my ideals.  The things we, as a nation, we are spending our money on do seem to help 'some' people make more money, but not the average American.  I think it would make more sense to invest in the average man.  

For example: we "can't afford" healthcare, infrastructure, public transport, education, renewable energy, a clean environment, feeding the poor or public elections, but we 'can afford' the Iraq and Afghan wars at $4-6 trillion, Wall-street bailouts $12.8 trillion, Big oil subsidies $37.5 billion PER YEAR, and the F35 jet program $1.5 trillion.  Did you know that if we reduced military spending by 50% or more we'd still be bigger than the Next Five of Earth's Militaries COMBINED?  Did you know that many of our troops are currently doing humanitarian work around the globe because there's nothing else for them to do?  Do you know the main reasons we are in the middle east are 1) oil and 2) to develop markets for manufacturers to sell our 'stuff' because much of the US is already saturated with 'things' we don't need.  

In the past 30 years college tuition has increased by 1,120%, medical care has increased by 601%, food costs have increased by 244% and shelter costs have gone up 380%...  the cost of living is increasing by leaps and bounds and 'some' people are making money: the average CEO pay has increased by 937%, but the pay of typical workers rose just 10%.  Hmmmm.

Now then, as far as whether change is feasible or not, FDR created a progressive tax and pulled this country out of the Great Depression.  I hope that it doesn't have to get so bad again before this country's voters realize that we can prevent cu calamity from happening again.  

It's not just details and semantics.  I have been living a life of stagnant wages, pay freezes, hiring freezes, lay-offs and a lack of political interest in education and environmentalism disguised as the need for a 'free'-market, 'deregulation' and 'no-child-left-behind.'  Enough is enough.  Bernie is different.  He's the candidate so many of us have been hoping for for decades.  

Sigh, but like my original post said, I'm to looking to argue or convince anyone.  I'm hoping by post a few comments like this I can get past nay-sayer postings and hopefully find people who are like-minded to chat with about how do we solve these problems together. :)  

 

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On April 8, 2016 at 1:06 AM, Eowyn said:

Free stuff plus fat-burning European chocolate is a platform I could get behind. 

 

I've been studying Denmark lately, having recently discovered some Danish lineage. They are a highly socialist country, and rated the happiest in the world. They pay 43-58% taxes (or something along those lines), too.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/03/why-denmark-isnt-the-utopian-fantasy-bernie-sanders-describes/

I like to study Denmark too. The drawback? You realize it's hardly a paradise. The Washington Post is hardly right wing and they'll admit it. 

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/the-danish-dont-have-the-secret-to-happiness/384930/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/27/scandinavian-miracle-brutal-truth-denmark-norway-sweden

All three links are hardly from right wing sources. 

Edited by MormonGator
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On April 8, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Sunday21 said:

Once again...move to Canada! ?You will be most welcome here. Okay it is a little cold and we do talk funny but Ontario is introducing free university education for the poor. I am thrilled! We may be introducing a minimum level of income for everyone. Most saints in my city are quite socialist. You would be quite comfortable here. I suspect that there are many lds social democrats in Europe and Australia and that they are very comfortable with being lds and holding their political views.

I am seriously taking steps to move to Canada by next summer.  I think you are probably right about the existence of more socialistic saints in many other places all over the world.  That's encouraging and part of why I'm seriously taking steps to move.  I live in NEOhio, so I don't feel so far removed from Canada anyways.  

While canvassing for Bernie I actually worked with a Canadian who came down to help us - he taught me a lot about Canada's systems.  I love how educators are treated with more respect and education is considered more valuable than it is in America.  He mentioned how he wasn't sure about the value of getting a college degree in a liberal arts field that didn't specifically lead to a career UNTIL he came to America and realized how the additional education, even if it was irrelevant to achieving a better job, has in fact created a more educated Canadian populace.  THAT's lovely!  

I don't see a long-term future for myself as a teacher in America.  I can barely make ends meet with my $33K teachers salary with a Masters degree and 6 years of experience.  I have had to take on a second job which means I'm working over 50 hrs a week and my net combined income on my taxes this past year was $37K and that included the income I earned from also working as a summer school teacher.   The adage "Americans are working longer hours for lower wages' certainly applies to me, besides low wages I'm tired of being treated so poorly by parents, administrators, students and government officials they all want to put the blame for failing schools on teachers, sigh.  So tired of it all.  

Also, healthcare in America is getting worse and worse, more and more expensive, more and more confusing.  I've been fairly healthy all my life, but I'm getting older and I can't imagine my health lasting forever.  I don't want to leave my son a legacy of debt from medical expenses for his mother. 

And I don't want my son to end up with $60-80K in debt from attending a decent college - a good college that challenges him - sure you can go to a cheap local school, but he's smarter than that.  Why is education a life sentence in debt to the banks?  What does the American government continue to let bankers get rich off students high interest rates?  It's all so appalling. :(

I know education and healthcare aren't 'free' in Canada, but I like Canada's priorities.  It chooses to spend it's tax dollars on the things I value. :)  

Sunday21 - which province do you live in?  Ontario?  Are you or any of your loved ones going to be taking advantage of the education subsidy?  Have you traveled much in Canada?  If I was hoping to make a trip this summer how could I go about finding places to camp?  Is camping more economically affordable than staying in a hotel in Canada like it is in the US?  Do you mind if I pick your brain like this? :)  

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27 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Not interested in arguing - but if you have ideas about how America can get better I'll entertain those. :) 

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8 minutes ago, Tuckabee said:

Not interested in arguing - but if you have ideas about how America can get better I'll entertain those. :) 

I'm not interested in arguing either. 
 

 

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On April 8, 2016 at 9:30 AM, tesuji said:

Tuckabee,

You are not alone. Most Mormons lean conservative, but not all, by any means.

I consider myself a left-leaning independent. I find wisdom and folly in both of the main US political parties.

I think democratic capitalism has a lot of strengths, and also a lot of weaknesses. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst possible system except everything else we've been able to think of. I am sympathetic to many of the ideas in socialism - if they can practically be put to use to help the poor and needy, then I'm all for it. I am fascinated with what I hear about Denmark, and wish the US could learn from them. 

I have enjoyed the following article many times - be sure to see page 2 of it:

"Why I'm a Mormon Democrat": http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Why-Im-a-Mormon-Democrat

I am confident that if people put aside ideology and focus on their core values, and work together, we can solve many of our problems. Most people in all parties have the same values: freedom, security, prosperity, peace, education, fairness, helping others, etc. And the more that the gospel of Jesus is part of the discussion, the better the solution.

I commend you for keeping politics and the gospel separate. They are. Politics is worldly ideology, and it usally acts to divide people. The gospel transcends politics - our goal as LDS members is to serve God and our neighbors, and to learn to be one in heart, to build Zion. We should not allow partisan thinking to hinder those things.

My advice is to keep an open mind, to allow people their freedom of thought, and be patient when you hear Mormons putting politics before the gospel. Just smile and pray for them.

 

tesuji,

I really appreciate your post, but I have already spent over a decade being patient.  Did you know that there has been at least one ward out there were political opinions voiced in church caused such divide that two elder quorums and two relief societies were created within one building with different political interpretations of the gospel?? Did you know that higher up authorities had to be brought in to reunited the ward?  Did you you know that I have traveled and heard people talking in gospel doctrine about their OWN interpretation of the book of revelation to mean how the oil industry was in the right to use the black gold for financial gain?  Did you know that the gospel principle teacher in my ward believes in the conspiracy theories that suggest that the droughts in California aren't part of global warming, but in fact MAN-MADE with the intent to damage the lives of the liberal leaning people of southern California!? Not to mention some of her other extremely right-wing conspiracy beliefs.   These people do not keep their political opinions out of our chapels.  

For far too long I have been listening to them, shaking my head and praying for them, but I can't anymore.  I do not bring up my political beliefs, I just ask them not to bring up theirs by quoting scriptures and telling tales of my own personal experiences that contradict their assertions.   I feel like I have been playing the role of watch-dog for my ward.  I work to keep politics out of my ward and keep the teachings and discussions I'm exposed to gospel and doctrine centered.  When I have spoken up I get criticized openly by some and thanked quietly by others.  Quite a few people come up to me and thank me for saying the things they say they don't have the nerve to say, they agree with me, they say I'm right for redirecting people.  

I expressed some of my concerns to some of the brethren and there was a 'campaign' in my ward to make Sundays meetings more holy and more focussed on the Savior.  This allowed me to say things to people who I heard discussion politics too loudly "Hey we're supposed to be working to make Sunday more holy and focussed on Christ and while I respect your right to have an opinion, I don't agree with yours and when you vocalize it in Church I feel very uncomfortable which detracts from having a holy Sunday for me.  This place is supposed to be a refuge from the things of the world, could you please keep these conversations out of our chapel, thank you."  

I think overall the effect of my efforts have been good and my ward is healthy and remains gospel centered right now and I certainly do not take all the credit as it belongs to God for inspiring me and the others who worked with me.  But I am a single women and if that didn't already set me apart, my stanch adherence to the avoidance of politics in church has lengthened the divide from most.  Of course there are a few whom I have earned respect from, but I still feel very lonely and in the minority.  I still feel exhausted from the effort and ever vigilant and wary.  I don't understand why so few feel like they can speak up, why so many think it's right to express their opinion about the President's decisions in my son's priesthood class, I don't understand why me and mine are so mis-understood.  Sigh.... sorry, this got a little long.  

 

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1 hour ago, Tuckabee said:

Not interested in arguing - but if you have ideas about how America can get better I'll entertain those. :) 

The USmerican Constitution is the only form of government in the modern world with God's explicit approval.

Quote

Doc&Cov 101:77~80
77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

We must return to legitimate constitutional government without welfare, without huge bureaucracies, without all the freedom limiting regulations, without government schools, without government controlled communications and banking and all the other unconstitutional assaults on liberty and the family.

We must get the government out of the economy, we must get the government out of the job market, we must get the government entirely out of education.

"Liberalism" (aka socialism, communism, progressivism) in economics is a recipe for disaster. It makes slaves of those who produce the wealth the rest depend on. Slavery is, ipso facto, evil

On the other hand, "conservatism" has it own weaknesses. Forcing people to adhere to a specific moral or physical code, coercing people to abstain or ingest anything is just as evil as slavery.

Only freedom is going to make USmerica better. Big government forcing people to do or not do anything cannot make anyone better off.

Welfare, any kind of welfare (monetary, health, educational, or any other type) is not charity. Charity is uplifting, welfare destroys. Charity is love, welfare is control. Charity makes people free, welfare makes them dependent. Charity makes people better, welfare makes them less human. How can welfare make a country better when it makes people worse?

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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26 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Seems like you think less of those who see things differently.

 

That's a big problem with politics period. If you don't agree with me, I think less of you morally. It's very sad. Very, very sad. 

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5 hours ago, Tuckabee said:

I am seriously taking steps to move to Canada by next summer.  I think you are probably right about the existence of more socialistic saints in many other places all over the world.  That's encouraging and part of why I'm seriously taking steps to move.  I live in NEOhio, so I don't feel so far removed from Canada anyways.  

While canvassing for Bernie I actually worked with a Canadian who came down to help us - he taught me a lot about Canada's systems.  I love how educators are treated with more respect and education is considered more valuable than it is in America.  He mentioned how he wasn't sure about the value of getting a college degree in a liberal arts field that didn't specifically lead to a career UNTIL he came to America and realized how the additional education, even if it was irrelevant to achieving a better job, has in fact created a more educated Canadian populace.  THAT's lovely!  

I don't see a long-term future for myself as a teacher in America.  I can barely make ends meet with my $33K teachers salary with a Masters degree and 6 years of experience.  I have had to take on a second job which means I'm working over 50 hrs a week and my net combined income on my taxes this past year was $37K and that included the income I earned from also working as a summer school teacher.   The adage "Americans are working longer hours for lower wages' certainly applies to me, besides low wages I'm tired of being treated so poorly by parents, administrators, students and government officials they all want to put the blame for failing schools on teachers, sigh.  So tired of it all.  

Also, healthcare in America is getting worse and worse, more and more expensive, more and more confusing.  I've been fairly healthy all my life, but I'm getting older and I can't imagine my health lasting forever.  I don't want to leave my son a legacy of debt from medical expenses for his mother. 

And I don't want my son to end up with $60-80K in debt from attending a decent college - a good college that challenges him - sure you can go to a cheap local school, but he's smarter than that.  Why is education a life sentence in debt to the banks?  What does the American government continue to let bankers get rich off students high interest rates?  It's all so appalling. :(

I know education and healthcare aren't 'free' in Canada, but I like Canada's priorities.  It chooses to spend it's tax dollars on the things I value. :)  

Sunday21 - which province do you live in?  Ontario?  Are you or any of your loved ones going to be taking advantage of the education subsidy?  Have you traveled much in Canada?  If I was hoping to make a trip this summer how could I go about finding places to camp?  Is camping more economically affordable than staying in a hotel in Canada like it is in the US?  Do you mind if I pick your brain like this? :)  

Warning. The following is lengthy and very boring unless you are planning to move to the great white north! ?

Dear Tuck, sorry I am having some problems quoting so I think that I have posted empty replies. Firstly, yes you would fit right in here. You would find that most of us are kindred spirits including most of the saints. Second, in most instances to move to Canada you need a job. Teachers are paid well here, are well respected and have great benefits. 

Consequently the chances of finding a job here as a teacher, unless you have a relative who is a school principle, is zero. To be blunt, it is not even worth trying. We are pumping out teachers every year and there is no chance that they will find jobs. How do I know? I belong to a small ward and we all get involved in trying to find jobs for those in our ward. I have an interview with a young person tomorrow on just this topic. Re:teaching jobs-We have one young woman who worked abroad as a teacher and is back home trying to find a job. We are racking our brains. 

To move to C, you need to convince a company that you are just what they need. In turn the company has to convince the government that no appropriate Canadian is available. In my line of work, we do this all the time but everyone that I work with has a phd.

Health care is free. Drugs are not but if you have a job, they are usually paid for by the employer. 

Camping is cheap but this is the land of winter. June to September is campable. Otherwise not recommended. Instead how about Airbnb, flip key, vrbo.

i have lived in Ontario, all over, Manitoba, Saskatchewan. No one in my family will make use of the education subsidy because we all work long hours, have lots of education, and consequently earn above such all reasonable cut offs.

One possibility, stay in the states but send your son to school here. Check out Brandon university in Manitoba. Very reasonable fee. Avoid university PEI. All universities in Canada give a good education. Uni education is much more standardized here with the glaring exception of PEI which should be shot. Another to consider is grant mcewan Alberta. Hope this helps!

Edited by Sunday21
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4 hours ago, LeSellers said:

The USmerican Constitution is the only form of government in the modern world with God's explicit approval.

We must return to legitimate constitutional government without welfare, without huge bureaucracies, without all the freedom limiting regulations, without government schools, without government controlled communications and banking and all the other unconstitutional assaults on liberty and the family.

We must get the government out of the economy, we must get the government out of the job market, we must get the government entirely out of education.

"Liberalism" (aka socialism, communism, progressivism) in economics is a recipe for disaster. It makes slaves of those who produce the wealth the rest depend on. Slavery is, ipso facto, evil

On the other hand, "conservatism" has it own weaknesses. Forcing people to adhere to a specific moral or physical code, coercing people to abstain or ingest anything is just as evil as slavery.

Only freedom is going to make USmerica better. Big government forcing people to do or not do anything cannot make anyone better off.

Welfare, any kind of welfare (monetary, health, educational, or any other type) is not charity. Charity is uplifting, welfare destroys. Charity is love, welfare is control. Charity makes people free, welfare makes them dependent. Charity makes people better, welfare makes them less human. How can welfare make a country better when it makes people worse?

Lehi

In case it's not clear to you - you, your kind and your post are exactly what I'm NOT interested in dealing with. I COMPLETELY and utterly disagree with you.  Your ideas have no proof of working in the real world.  Create your won thread if you like.  Thank you.  Please do not highjack this thread to argue.  

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4 hours ago, Backroads said:

Seems like you think less of those who see things differently.

 

Work to keep.politics out of your ward, but don't snub your fellow Saints. I'm getting the impression you are here only for political preaching.

If people would have read my initial post and only replied if they agreed with me in the first place I would be preaching at all.  You don't have to come to this thread.  I'm looking for people who SHARE my opinions.  I don't want to argue.  If that's your objective please don't reply on this thread anymore - create your own.  

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10 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

I posted the scripture that supports my PoV. Do you disagree with the Doc&Cov verses noted?

Lehi

I am not going to read your posts anymore. I am not interested in debating who is right about politics.  I am looking for people who agree with me.  Good bye.  

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

America should turn firmly away from socialistic/communistic ideals and reembrace the ideals of self-reliance and community (not welfare).

Please don't reply on this thread anymore.  I am looking for people who agree with me.  I am not interested in arguing about politics.  If you want to debate create your own thread.  Good bye.  

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4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

That's a big problem with politics period. If you don't agree with me, I think less of you morally. It's very sad. Very, very sad. 

I am not interested in being judged ANYMORE for my political opinion.  I created this thread in order to find people that already agree with me.  Not to be attacked.  I'm looking for like minded people, not to argue or debate.  Please don't post on this thread anymore.  If you want to debate politics, please create your own thread.  Good bye.  

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22 minutes ago, Tuckabee said:

I am not interested in being judged ANYMORE for my political opinion.  I created this thread in order to find people that already agree with me.  Not to be attacked.  I'm looking for like minded people, not to argue or debate.  Please don't post on this thread anymore.  If you want to debate politics, please create your own thread.  Good bye.  

1. It wasn't directed towards you. Chill. You said you weren't interested in arguing or debating-then you ask if anyone has other ideas, you'd like to hear it. 

2. It's not an attack. Even if it was directed towards you, it wouldn't be one. 

3. You show the innate flaw of discussing politics online. It doesn't matter if you aren't interested in being judged for your opinions-you will be anyway, and it's totally within our rights-liberal or conservative. 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 hour ago, Tuckabee said:

I am looking for people who agree with me.  Good bye.  

1 hour ago, Tuckabee said:

I am looking for people who agree with me. … Good bye.  

1 hour ago, Tuckabee said:

 I created this thread in order to find people that already agree with me.  Not to be attacked.  I'm looking for like minded people, not to argue or debate.  … Good bye.  

This is a discussion board, not a pollyanna puffer site. We talk about things, not just parade around looking for attaboys.

Lehi

Edited by LeSellers
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